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The Politics of systemd Part 3
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL,

steveL wrote:
We don't hear about the ones from 30 or 40 years ago, because no-one still uses them ...

Here's a refresher.

Its all worth rereading but the relevant part starts at Historical Detour: The Open Standards Steamroller
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devilheart
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:

6th July reply...
https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2017-July/039221.html


Why would a dot conflict with chown's syntax? User and goup name are separated by a colon
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Naib
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

devilheart wrote:
Naib wrote:

6th July reply...
https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2017-July/039221.html


Why would a dot conflict with chown's syntax? User and goup name are separated by a colon


I don't know, why would a dot conflict?

is this a joke and Systemd is the punchline?


Some restrictions make sense and are needed... A username starting with . would result in the homedirectory being hidden. A username starting with - could be interpreted as an argument to a tool. Containing $ would result in shell attempting to expand what follows... ,Whitespaces are naturally delimiters for coreutils & equally other symbols, eg :, are delimiters...

Everything else is just policy. Its only bad practice having a username that is all numbers since it could easily mistaken (by humans...) to be a UID... Coreutils covers this by assuming what is provided is a username & fallback to UID.

it would not have taken much to improve the regex to ensure a minimum of one alphabetical character to mitigate an all number username [a-z_][a-z0-9_-]{1,31} becomes [a-z_]{1,1}[a-z0-9_-]{1,30} but well... PRIDE and thats is the biggest issue with Systemd.

The architecture is questionable, the implementation is debatable but my biggest issue with it is how they deal with issues. As I tell my engineers at work... We all make mistakes, that's not a problem, its how you deal with it that counts & how Pottering deals with it stinks. EWONTFIX is just so wrong.

It says something when the kernel has to implement something because quote: I can no longer trust init to do the right thing, which means systemd fuckups are affecting system stability (so the kernel needs to consider stupid outside its sandbox...) & more to the point EWONTFIX
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
but well... PRIDE and thats is the biggest issue with Systemd.
Do you meant to say COURAGE? ;)
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depontius
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
Naib wrote:
but well... PRIDE and thats is the biggest issue with Systemd.
Do you meant to say COURAGE? ;)


Or do you mean, "Soup"? (Big Bang Theory reference)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
[At this point, I simply "cannot word", either.


I started a thing. Awesome.

Quote:
he's "Not sure I follow," he goes on to whine about how he "would have preferred if glibc wouldn't regress on this without more consideration."


This is the fundamental problem in all of this. He doesn't understand the domain, but wants everyone else to clean up his mess.
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krinn
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
Linus wrote:
And yes, a large part of this may be that I no longer feel like I can
trust "init" to do the sane thing. You all presumably know why.

Golden quote naib :)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
At this point, I simply "cannot word", either.
gwr wrote:
I started a thing. Awesome.
Heh, indeed. I found myself abruptly bewildered at the stupidity, and had no way to articulate the induced moment of brain-freeze.. and what you'd wrote suddenly made overwhelming sense.
Quote:
This is the fundamental problem in all of this. He doesn't understand the domain, but wants everyone else to clean up his mess.
++
He's a jack-of-all-trades, and we all know the flipside of that. He seems to think because "it's all code", it's all the same, and has no clue about what a "domain specialist" means; he just rides roughshod over the subtleties of their discussion, and then, as you say, expects everyone else to clean up the mess.

It's the difference between a "software engineer", and a "software developer". There are all kinds of roles around software, but they have to bear in mind that the product is an engineered one, not an aesthetic choice. It's about the results, not "the experience".
I shudder to think at an electrical components firm run so shoddily, with no regard for things like resistance; they simply would not get anywhere.
Yet we're expected to acquiesce in the frankly delusional plans of a software house with no apparent understanding of things like coupling and modularity.

Imagine Kirk leaning to Scotty, asking him to "break the laws of physics", and Scotty simply nodding along with an inane grin on his face. "Aye, Cap'n, that's nae bother.."

Engineers are supposed to be detail-oriented, focussed, and always worried about what might go wrong; not blase about the prospect of total failure (like giving away root to an "invalid" uid.)
Humility comes with the electic shocks. ;)

At this point, I've come to idly wish that any black-hats would simply get on and use the exploits already: it's only when his software is pinpointed as the enabling vector of a crticical attack on a major bindist, with real-world economic consequences, that Poeterring is finally going to get the software equivalent of his first electric shock from mains.
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Fitzcarraldo
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
Naib wrote:
https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
Linus wrote:
And yes, a large part of this may be that I no longer feel like I can
trust "init" to do the sane thing. You all presumably know why.

Golden quote naib :)

Hmm... Perhaps he has changed his mind a bit since DebConf 14.
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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
It's the difference between a "software engineer", and a "software developer". ...

Pure Gold, Steve.

IOW, the difference between a professional and a hack.
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Zucca
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
Naib wrote:
https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
Linus wrote:
And yes, a large part of this may be that I no longer feel like I can
trust "init" to do the sane thing. You all presumably know why.

Golden quote naib :)
I'm tempted to put that quote in my sig... But I'll play safe. I don't want to start (yet another) flame war.
But golden it is. I'd almost categorize it as "pure diamonds", however...
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitzcarraldo wrote:
krinn wrote:
Naib wrote:
https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
Linus wrote:
And yes, a large part of this may be that I no longer feel like I can
trust "init" to do the sane thing. You all presumably know why.

Golden quote naib :)

Hmm... Perhaps he has changed his mind a bit since DebConf 14.

Or perhaps not: Systemd vs. the Linux Kernel:

Bruce Byfield wrote:
Clearly, Torvalds sees a persistent pattern in the behavior of systemd developers that makes them unworthy of his trust.

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