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Daemon
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2002 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber wrote:

The last argument really bothers me


don't be bothered, relax :)
the reason i had this though in the beginning is because i saw that portage already provides such functionality with the --buildpkg option, it's just not being used on a wide basis for all gentoo users. there is no development involved here, everything is already written... it's just has to be utilized.

the way i suggest to be done is that every package committer uploads the binary build of the package which he should already have as he built b4 uploading ... hopefully :wink: ... after that we'll download it and use it... it would be perfect if the download process is part of portage ... but that's ok.

klieber wrote:

don't use Gentoo


please stop kicking us out of here... that's just rude. i have enough reasons to use gentoo as you do.

i wanted the discussion to focus on the advantages and the disadvantages more than the personal preference... and nobody came up with disadvantages that out weigh the advantages yet.
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klieber
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2002 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daemon wrote:
please stop kicking us out of here... that's just rude. i have enough reasons to use gentoo as you do.


Yes, you do, but you're trying to change Gentoo into something that it isn't without showing any compelling reason why it should be that way.

I'm not trying to kick anyone out -- I'm simply trying to prevent Gentoo from devolving into Just Another Distro.

Daemon wrote:
and nobody came up with disadvantages that out weigh the advantages yet.


Are you not reading anything I've written? I've listed several disadvantages. You said you didn't think it was a good idea if it would cause problems or break things. I've stated that it will cause problems AND break things. (I've given clear examples of what could break, as well) It will also slow the development process by diverting developer resources from other projects.

So, two points for you to address:

  • Why is it acceptable to increase the amount of bugs and decrease the rate of progress in Gentoo so that it may distribute binaries as an option.
  • Why should Gentoo do this? In other words, please specifically address the point of why Gentoo should start doing something that many, many other distros already do.


--kurt
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2002 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber wrote:

Are you not reading anything I've written?


sure..but the only thing I see is declarative statements without any support as this:

Quote:

If you start compiling binary versions of packages and offering them to your user base, be they "only" or "optional", then your bug reports increase.


and this "moving parts" theory:

Quote:

If you have a piece of machinery with two moving parts and a piece of machinery with 2000 moving parts, which one is more likely to break?


and this:

Quote:
I've stated that it will cause problems AND break things.


can you please tell us how it will break things and slow the development process and waste resources?

instead of saying it will do this and that can you please tell how will this happen? and be specific?
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2002 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wrote:
What makes you think that binary versions of software have fewer problems than those compiled from source? You have to worry about what version of QT and gcc the program is compiled against (and what version of QT you have on your computer), whether the binary is statically or dynamically linked, what compile time options were used, etc. All sorts of issues.

Then, of course, if you're going to distribute binaries, you have to cater to the lowest common denominator, which means 586 processors (at least until people start complaining that they can't install Gentoo on their 386SX w/ 4MB of RAM because Linux should run on that, dammit), which means no more speedy Gentoo.


If you'd like more specifics, please check out the bug log for Mandrake, Debian, RedHat or any other binary distro.

OK, I'm done. I've said my piece and made my point. I'm through arguing. You still haven't addressed the two issues that I brought up, but that's OK. I think our arguments, and their relative merits, speak for themselves.

At this point, anything more is simply flogging a dead horse.

--kurt
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2002 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
What makes you think that binary versions of software have fewer problems than those compiled from source? You have to worry about what version of QT and gcc the program is compiled against (and what version of QT you have on your computer)


portage already checks that. that's the whole idea behind portage, is to check what you have and what you need and do It for you.

klieber wrote:
whether the binary is statically or dynamically linked


every emerged package is dynamically linked.

klieber wrote:

what compile time options were used, etc. All sorts of issues.


"-mcpu=i686 -O3 -pipe" will work for everybody.(from /etc/make.conf: (but binaries
# will run on any x86 system)


klieber wrote:
Then, of course, if you're going to distribute binaries, you have to cater to the lowest common denominator, which means 586 processors (at least until people start complaining that they can't install Gentoo on their 386SX w/ 4MB of RAM because Linux should run on that, dammit), which means no more speedy Gentoo.


I stated b4 that the problem is not just cosmetic and it's effecting a large base of users like PII300-400 with 64M and less RAM and people with dialup internet. I think some statistics wil be refreshing. (my box is PII-300, 256M but I have cable).
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2002 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daemon wrote:
portage already checks that. that's the whole idea behind portage, is to check what you have and what you need and do It for you.


Oh dear god, why can't I just leave this alone...

There have been numerous instances of a specific version of program X not playing well with a specific version of program Y. (but the newer version of X will play nice with Y)

There are ~1500 packages in Gentoo. Each package has anywhere from 1 to 10 different versions. Let's say, on average, they each have 3 different versions. (i.e. libpng 1.0, 1.1 and 1.2)

So, we should then provide 1500^3 number of binary packages to make sure that they all work nicely together?

Daemon wrote:
every emerged package is dynamically linked.


OK, great -- so that makes the problem even worse. At least with statically linked packages you don't have to worry about as many library dependencies.

Daemon wrote:
I stated b4 that the problem is not just cosmetic and it's effecting a large base of users like PII300-400 with 64M and less RAM and people with dialup internet. I think some statistics wil be refreshing. (my box is PII-300, 256M but I have cable).


But you haven't stated why Gentoo should cater to these people. You seem to want Gentoo to be a mass-market distro -- the Chevrolet of distros, rather than the Ferrari. Why? (and, more importantly, why is that a Good Thing)

Again, you have not answered the following points:

  • Why is it acceptable to increase the amount of bugs and decrease the rate of progress in Gentoo so that it may distribute binaries as an option.
  • Why should Gentoo do this? In other words, please specifically address the point of why Gentoo should start doing something that many, many other distros already do.



I have specifically addressed your questions. Please show me the same courtesy.

--kurt
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Daemon
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2002 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't see how i didn't answer your questions.. please read again:

klieber wrote:
Why is it acceptable to increase the amount of bugs and decrease the rate of progress in Gentoo so that it may distribute binaries as an option.


I wrote:

why would they increase? i think i already asked this question when i said "are there other problems or this is doable?". if it causes bugs and dependency confilicts then probably it's not worth it.

that the whole idea behind my post, what are the problems if you do that?


you see your question is a false question to begin with because it assumes that it's gonna increase the amount of bugs and decrease the rate of progress . yet you failed until now to show us how that will happen.

but let me stress again.. if it gonna do what you say then, i'm totally with you on this, WE SHOULDN'T DO IT. but for now let's see what are the problems.

klieber wrote:
Why should Gentoo do this? In other words, please specifically address the point of why Gentoo should start doing something that many, many other distros already do.


Gentoo is already doing what many, many distros are doing ... Gentoo is another linux distro... it just does things better. Gentoo combine the successfull experience of BSD ports with the object oriented power of python to come up with a better way to install and uninstall software.

I don't see untill now how would using the --buildpkg option to distibute binaries damage Gentoo... why did they make such an option in the first place then if it's gonna cause all the chaos you're telling us it would?

klieber wrote:
There have been numerous instances of a specific version of program X not playing well with a specific version of program Y. (but the newer version of X will play nice with Y)

There are ~1500 packages in Gentoo. Each package has anywhere from 1 to 10 different versions. Let's say, on average, they each have 3 different versions. (i.e. libpng 1.0, 1.1 and 1.2)

So, we should then provide 1500^3 number of binary packages to make sure that they all work nicely together?


the exact same problem exists with compiled packages.. if a package is compiled against a dependancy that it doesn't work well with it then it's gonna break too.. there is no difference between compiled and precompiled here.

klieber wrote:
OK, great -- so that makes the problem even worse. At least with statically linked packages you don't have to worry about as many library dependencies


don't change the question please. you're original question was in the sence that not knowing whether the package is statically or dynamically linked will cause problems and i told there is no problem here because all of them are dynamically linked.

the question that you have to answer now is that why would dynamically linked packages cause problems with precompiled packeges and not with the compiled ones.

klieber wrote:
But you haven't stated why Gentoo should cater to these people. You seem to want Gentoo to be a mass-market distro -- the Chevrolet of distros, rather than the Ferrari. Why? (and, more importantly, why is that a Good Thing)


Hint: a large base of users !!? after all why not? :lol:
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2002 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, let's just agree to disagree. Your arguments make no sense to me, and I'm sure mine make no sense to you.

I will say one thing. Chevrolet, Ford and Chrysler all have a large user base. That doesn't mean their cars are more desirable or better than those of Ferrari, Porsche or BMW.

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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2002 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
Chevrolet, Ford and Chrysler all have a large user base. That doesn't mean their cars are more desirable or better than those of Ferrari, Porsche or BMW.


but again you didn't tell us how using --buildpkg will degrade Gentoo from Ferrari to Ford in term of performance. that's the main theme of the thread and not understanding that is what making my answers not make sense to you.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2002 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I mentioned, Gentoo currently has about 1500 packages. Adding binary packages would increase that number significantly. (let's not quibble with numbers -- let's just say "significantly")

If you cannot intrinsically understand that increasing the amount of packages and complexity of the packaging system will also increase bugs and decrease the pace of overall Gentoo development, then nothing I say short of a complete CS 101 course and a complete Logic 101 course is going to make sense to you.

So again, let's just agree to disagree. We've beaten this thread to death.

--kurt
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2002 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
As I mentioned, Gentoo currently has about 1500 packages. Adding binary packages would increase that number significantly. (let's not quibble with numbers -- let's just say "significantly")

If you cannot intrinsically understand that increasing the amount of packages and complexity of the packaging system will also increase bugs and decrease the pace of overall Gentoo development


so what do you suggest we keep the number of packages to this??? freebsd has 6845 ports and that's FreeBSD which most of it's packages are imported from linux. i have no illusion, and i hope you don't, that the number of Gentoo ebuild will increase beyond that soon.

i hope that you stop giving half answers which are no more than speculations and guesses without any scientific proof or logic connection between them and claim after that to be scientific and logical.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2002 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anonymous Coward wrote:
so what do you suggest we keep the number of packages to this??? freebsd has 6845 ports and that's FreeBSD which most of it's packages are imported from linux. i have no illusion, and i hope you don't, that the number of Gentoo ebuild will increase beyond that soon.


Sigh...you don't get it. Gentoo has a defined focus right now. Of course we should add ebuilds that are within the scope of that focus. My point is we shouldn't add unnecessary packages that are outside the focus of Gentoo.

Anonymous Coward wrote:
i hope that you stop giving half answers which are no more than speculations and guesses without any scientific proof or logic connection between them and claim after that to be scientific and logical.


I have no idea who you are since you declined to post under a real account. I have posted my opinions and explain why I feel those opinions to be valid. You are free to disagree with my opinions. Please refrain from posting flamebait, however.

The logic connection, BTW, is self-evident. I'm sorry if you don't agree with that.

--kurt

P.S. Folks -- this thread is going nowhere. It's 2:50pm EDT right now. I'm locking this thread in another hour. (and I'm giving notice here and now so I don't hear whining about how I'm trying to supress this topic -- there hasn't been one new idea postulated in this thread in the last 20+ posts and we're doing nothing but rehashing the same old BS, over and over.) If you have a burning need to say something on this topic, say it now.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2002 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the above post is mine, i just forgot to login b4 submitting the post.

yes, i think you failed to provide any single support to why would my idea damage Gentoo. all your allegations about the "moving part", "too many packages, "static and dynamic", "optamized or not" ...... etc were answered although they are valued contirbutions and there might be many users that support you, i personally don't, and that's why we discuss things here.

not all people see thing the way we see and that's why we have the invention called forums for people to exchange views. closing the thread is just an absurd way discussing things and is a procedure that you can train a monkey to do.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2002 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
there hasn't been one new idea postulated in this thread in the last 20+ posts and we're doing nothing but rehashing the same old BS, over and over

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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2002 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i wonder how closing the thread will bring new ideas. if anyting it will stop people from contributing to the thread and not the contrary. if you don't new ideas that's fine.. maybe others will have. which makes me wonder about the real reason to close the thread.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2002 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK folks, this is the last post before this thread gets locked. I'll refrain from voicing my opinions on this topic since that would be an unfair advantage.

While there has been some very good, spirited debate, there have been no new ideas offered on this thread in quite some time, which means its time to move on to other things.

--kurt
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