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helecho
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion, you have done a good work. Thank you, augustin!
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augustin
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks all for the feedback on the history of OpenRC, and thanks Fitzcarraldo for the link. I've slightly amended my blog post accordingly.
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augustin
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:

If you want a tool for desktop users, fine do one, but don't include that in openrc where another package can handle it, don't also start to make openrc depends on the tool ;


To clarify my original thought:
I am not speaking about a GUI tool at all. What I have in mind is a light weight bash or python script, that would allow a beginner user to get started very quickly and very easily.

My goal generally speaking, is to make every software installed on my or any linux machine be as intuitive and usable as possible. I am pointing out a way OpenRC could gain in usability, from the perspective of a newbie user.
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augustin
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
I think it's great that you are at least trying to do orderly development instead of ad hoc hacking.


Thanks.
So far, I am not convinced at all that there is any need to fork OpenRC. Even if it were, I am the wrong guy for the job: I am not technically competent, I certainly don't have the time to manage a fork, nor the inclination.

I think we would all gain by working together instead of against each other. Also, instead of bickering and name calling, I really would like to encourage positive contributions, made in a way that benefits the whole community.
It is not by chance that I wrote the following document before I wrote the OpenRC GLEP proposal:
http://linux.overshoot.tv/blogs/augustin/hierarchy_contribution_open_source

My time is very, very limited (I have 80+ hours work weeks), and that's what motivates me all the more to waste it in talk that does not achieve anything lasting.


Last edited by augustin on Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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augustin
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

helecho wrote:
In my opinion, you have done a good work. Thank you, augustin!


Thanks a lot, helecho. I appreciate it.

I really tried to make sense of all the criticism against OpenRC, and, to my understanding, it all boiled down to trust issues (a systemd advocate leading the OpenRC project!), badly managed upgrade issues (stability), and maybe loss of flexibility in the way that systemd paradigms (/usr/ and /sbin/ merges?) were or might be 'imported' into OpenRC.

I won't pretend that I understood everything. Personally I am happily running the latest stable OpenRC version 0.22.4, and beside a more intuitive interface, I don't know what is missing or what could be improved. I'll look up to more knowledgeable people like SteveL for that...

If nothing else, I have at least described a personal blueprint of what I would like OpenRC to be: stable, flexible, usable and intuitive. What I wrote about OpenRC is applicable to just about any software, really. I would like a strong linux distribution that takes those goals seriously.
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augustin
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As promised a while ago, Steve, I am coming back to you! :)

You wrote:
steveL wrote:

On the wider discussion, I think it's better just to focus on reworking the code how we like.
Though "how we like" really means no more backgrounding of daemons, iow reworking start-stop-daemon (which is provided by openrc, so we can change it) to be/add an exec-daemon similar to Bernstein's model.

I suppose an interim step would be to remove any nutty changes of recent years, while supporting current stanzas in depend.
That really means we need each nutty change you guys want reverted or reworked, specified in sufficient detail to do just that.

It's important not to throw away the existing work, iow; especially since there has (finally) been some work done on the C side that makes sense, though it's ages ago so I don't recall the detail. It was mostly documentation that I saw, opening the door to a proper 'struct service' (AFAIR); done by a Gentoo developer.

How many of you have a git checkout of the openrc code? Let's start discussing the changes you want gone, as they shouldn't be that difficult. The only wrinkle would be reworking initscripts from packages, which would need an overlay ebuild.

Note that you will be expected to rebuild and try out experimental code, patched by you, in your own repo, including reworking a patch in remote collaboration. ie it might not work straight away, until we get it right after more discussion, which will be slower til we're all on IRC.

Sufficient detail means: Links to the git commit/s that introduced the changes, along with a description of what it did before, or indeed the whole initscript in a code tag, and a bit of reasoning for why the changeset should be reverted or reworked.

I dislike a lot of the history since Roy left, but there's no real point reworking old commits for crap bashish; I'd rather rework the latest versions, once unborked, to clean sh. You guys have a clearer idea of changes that need to happen because they directly affect users.


First, thank you very much for your attempt at bringing the discussion back on technical grounds. I am willing to work with you on this.
I strongly believe that a lengthy forum thread such as this one is the wrong venue to discuss meaningful work.
If we don't want meaningful information to be drowned and lost, we need to lift it up to levels where it will remain visible. This is something I can help with.

I wonder: has any bug report ever been filed on the official tracker about any of the issues you raise? If not, then this probably should be our starting point: clearly describe the issue, propose a better alternative, write and test a patch, etc...

According to you, which issue should we deal first?
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

augustin wrote:
According to you, which issue should we deal first?

That's what I am asking you, and others, as I've been out of touch with things for ages (and was running openrc-0.12.4 last.)
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roki942
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While following a link about the upcoming new home of Pappy Kernel Seeds page I ran across this.
http://www.funtoo.org/News:Xorg_and_other_Updates
Quote:
Update to OpenRC-0.23.2. We keep old-fashioned rc and runscript symlinked to new binaries, so services startup and older scripts will work without any warnings.
Generally, when writing init-scripts, its recommended to use #!openrc-run shebang now.


Have any of you IT and Computer Science guys looked into the forms of OpenRc used by Funtoo, TrueOs or anyone else?
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