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khayyam
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leio wrote:
Copying wrapped lines from less seems to work fine for me. Triple-clicking on a line (which is supposed to do a full line/paragraph select, like doubleclick does word select) is also selecting all the visible lines that are wrapped.

Leio ... and if you triple click a manpage (which is also handled via $PAGER), or $LINE has `quote', or "quote", or 'quote', or if the selection required spans more, or is less than, a paragraph? Or, what about the following:

Code:
fpath=($zdotdir/{.zsh/*.zwc,.zsh/{functions,scripts}}(N) $fpath)
for d in $fpath; do
  fns=( $d/*~*~(N.x:t) )
  (( ${#fns} )) && autoload $fns
done

Where will you click on this to have the 'paragraph' selected, or even the first line?

Mouse selection (via triple click) has it's own idea of what equates to a line/paragraph and often doesn't conform to what is paged, or how the selection would be made were it made by something with intelligence.

The idea that you would triple click (and pray), focus on another window (kwrite, or what-have-you), paste, focus on kconsole, triple click, focus on kwrite again, etc, etc ... this is the inverse of "computation". Computers are not good at being 'smart', they are good at (repetitive) tasks that can be programmed. If you want to rename a bunch of files from *.JPEG to *.jpg then you don't want to click, backspace, type ".jpg", return, click next file (and yes, this is the gui paradigm), you want a "computer". The same is true for text, and text selection.

best ... khay
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Leio
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why are we discussing triple click in a thread about selection not working right with less in konsole?... Sounds like someone just wants to argue and post. Triple click generally selects whatever is between two "newline characters" with the click point inbetween these. There is nothing indeterminate about this to pray about unless the toolkit/program gets it wrong or doesn't implement it. The point was to see if it breaks up the line in the terminal on wrapping in a way that it loses the information where the real newline is at (like VTE lost it years ago).
And no, I'm not going to be running some random script.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leio wrote:
Why are we discussing triple click in a thread about selection not working right with less in konsole?... Sounds like someone just wants to argue and post.

Leio ... probably because you brought it up, sounds like someone has a projection complex.

Leio wrote:
Triple click generally selects whatever is between two "newline characters" with the click point inbetween these.

Did you test this as I suggested above? So, if you 'man less' (and PAGER=less) triple click will select between "two newline characters"? ... and what about triple click on a `quote' between "two newline characters", or what about between two braces, ie, paging the above code and triple click to select "paragraph"?

Leio wrote:
There is nothing indeterminate about this to pray about unless the toolkit/program gets it wrong or doesn't implement it.

That's yet to be seen, I'm pretty sure the last time I used kconsole you would not get the kind of selection you seem to think its "supposed to". I don't use kconsole so I could be wrong, but I've never seen a terminal that had anything but an indeterminate idea of what the the user intends as a selection, or have it reinterpret the pagers formatting so as to make the selected text as it was prior to that formatting.

Leio wrote:
The point was to see if it breaks up the line in the terminal on wrapping in a way that it loses the information where the real newline is at (like VTE lost it years ago).

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying but you're overlooking the fact that it depends on what you're paging (note the above 'man' example, or where LESSOPEN is in use). $PAGER is an onscreen display it doesn't (necessarily) preserve "information" (at least in the same way that 'cat' might).

Leio wrote:
And no, I'm not going to be running some random script.

... and who was asking you to? Why would I provide you code to 'run' when the subject is about "paging" and "selection"? You obviously didn't read what was written but lapsed into developer fail.

best ... khay
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Leio
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I told to try tripleclick to see if it selects multiple visual lines or the real line with multiple visual lines due to wrapping. You go on some random rant about the meaning of triple click, paragraph selection and whatever else. This isn't your personal chat board, try to stick to the topic and help the person asking, not go into some huge chat in every topic you reply, which appears to be all of them.
Konsole probably then doesn't handle things right, as I said originally - this is hard to get right while keeping the performance for the main use cases. Thanks for confirming this, as I assume You are using Konsole as well and confirming all these issues. I am saying it's an inherent issue with the typical way terminal emulators are implemented and not many can get this fully "right". My terminal works fine for this, albeit it might have other shortcoming that Konsole does not. This answers the question posed by OP and tries to explain why this might be like this in Konsole.
How about we let the person having the issue respond here next, ok?
To that effect, I will not reply to any further posts by khayyam here, nor due to previous bad experiences probably anywhere. Frankly, I will probably stop visiting the forums again for a long while, and do some actual work, as apparently trying to help users here leads to some long tirades of replies that quote everything I say, followed by some sort of counter for the sake of it. So easier to just move along and ignore the forums, thanks.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leio wrote:
I told to try tripleclick to see if it selects multiple visual lines or the real line with multiple visual lines due to wrapping. You go on some random rant about the meaning of triple click, paragraph selection and whatever else. This isn't your personal chat board, try to stick to the topic and help the person asking, not go into some huge chat in every topic you reply, which appears to be all of them.

Leio ... it is called "discussion", and my points, much to your chagrin, are perfectly on topic ... but thanks for the advice.

Leio wrote:
Konsole probably then doesn't handle things right, as I said originally - this is hard to get right while keeping the performance for the main use cases. Thanks for confirming this, as I assume You are using Konsole as well and confirming all these issues.

You assume this even though I said "I don't use kconsole" in the above? That shows, again, you're not reading (something that is required in a "discussion", more so than innuendo and accusation). Anyhow, your obviously not prepared to listen to, and try, what I presented above (and so see what sorts of selections might be made based on what is being paged).

Leio wrote:
I am saying it's an inherent issue with the typical way terminal emulators are implemented and not many can get this fully "right". My terminal works fine for this, albeit it might have other shortcoming that Konsole does not. This answers the question posed by OP and tries to explain why this might be like this in Konsole.

It seems to me like you are retreating into defensiveness, copy selection in the OP's case is probably click and drag, and as I initially wrote this copies what is displayed by PAGER, and in some cases this will contain wraps not in the input. If using triple click then you might get a paragraph, a selection between `quote', or something nested between braces, and even so only one paragraph. If you return to my initial post in this thread I suggested this isn't the optimal way to do things, and that less (and other pagers) provide a means (VISUAL, 'v') for selecting the text in a way that avoids the kinds of problems shown by the OP. So, lets assume they don't want to take this route, my examples above should show that it doesn't "just work", and that expecting the gui will do the right thing, or do it effectively, is incorrect (again, its not intelligent enough).

Leio wrote:
How about we let the person having the issue respond here next, ok? To that effect, I will not reply to any further posts by khayyam here, nor due to previous bad experiences probably anywhere. Frankly, I will probably stop visiting the forums again for a long while, and do some actual work, as apparently trying to help users here leads to some long tirades of replies that quote everything I say, followed by some sort of counter for the sake of it. So easier to just move along and ignore the forums, thanks.

This is generally what happens when developers come to the forum, they don't receive the deference they expect, and when their POV is challenged in any way they start crying 'hater' and pull the kind of BS you've been pulling here, and in other threads. What's worse is that you've shown twice in this thread that you're not paying much attention to whats presented to you, and instead chose to make it seem as though I'm persecuting you by drawing your attention to the fact ... so, quite frankly boo-hoo, I have every right to object to such behaviour.

best ... khay
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desultory
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
Leio wrote:
I told to try tripleclick to see if it selects multiple visual lines or the real line with multiple visual lines due to wrapping. You go on some random rant about the meaning of triple click, paragraph selection and whatever else. This isn't your personal chat board, try to stick to the topic and help the person asking, not go into some huge chat in every topic you reply, which appears to be all of them.

Leio ... it is called "discussion", and my points, much to your chagrin, are perfectly on topic ... but thanks for the advice.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but you sort of grabbed the triple click ball and ran off with it while proclaiming the superiority of Pythagoras due to his bean phobia. He was inquiring as to the sources of spurious line breaks, you... were doing something else entirely, which might have eventually become relevant, but only after the source of the spurious line breaks was actually found and dealt with.

So, do kindly bear in mind that the Discussion (& Documentation) forums are somewhat farther down the front page than the Assistance forums, which include Desktop Environments, and if you really must engage in non-linear discussion, there are places that will happily welcome you... with inquiries about gladiator movies. (Note: I am not inviting such discussion, nor meta-discussion, here; bearing the hue of a citrus fruit has its privileges.)
khayyam wrote:
Leio wrote:
Konsole probably then doesn't handle things right, as I said originally - this is hard to get right while keeping the performance for the main use cases. Thanks for confirming this, as I assume You are using Konsole as well and confirming all these issues.

You assume this even though I said "I don't use kconsole" in the above? That shows, again, you're not reading (something that is required in a "discussion", more so than innuendo and accusation). Anyhow, your obviously not prepared to listen to, and try, what I presented above (and so see what sorts of selections might be made based on what is being paged).
Again, pause to think about your reply for just a moment: you stating that you do not use thing[X] in the general case does not preclude your use of thing [X] in the specific case of checking on the behavior upon which you are commenting, perhaps a more complete expression of avoidance could have made it clear that you were not actually describing experience.
khayyam wrote:
Leio wrote:
I am saying it's an inherent issue with the typical way terminal emulators are implemented and not many can get this fully "right". My terminal works fine for this, albeit it might have other shortcoming that Konsole does not. This answers the question posed by OP and tries to explain why this might be like this in Konsole.

It seems to me like you are retreating into defensiveness, copy selection in the OP's case is probably click and drag, and as I initially wrote this copies what is displayed by PAGER, and in some cases this will contain wraps not in the input. If using triple click then you might get a paragraph, a selection between `quote', or something nested between braces, and even so only one paragraph. If you return to my initial post in this thread I suggested this isn't the optimal way to do things, and that less (and other pagers) provide a means (VISUAL, 'v') for selecting the text in a way that avoids the kinds of problems shown by the OP. So, lets assume they don't want to take this route, my examples above should show that it doesn't "just work", and that expecting the gui will do the right thing, or do it effectively, is incorrect (again, its not intelligent enough).
Getting defensive while complaining that you have browbeaten someone else into a defensive posture is... rather curious. Again, he was trying to isolate the source of the problem, once that is done a solution can be prepared and tested, jumping ahead in that process can sometimes work, but is often a waste of time, especially to those trying to follow the advice thus generated.

khayyam wrote:
Leio wrote:
How about we let the person having the issue respond here next, ok? To that effect, I will not reply to any further posts by khayyam here, nor due to previous bad experiences probably anywhere. Frankly, I will probably stop visiting the forums again for a long while, and do some actual work, as apparently trying to help users here leads to some long tirades of replies that quote everything I say, followed by some sort of counter for the sake of it. So easier to just move along and ignore the forums, thanks.

This is generally what happens when developers come to the forum, they don't receive the deference they expect, and when their POV is challenged in any way they start crying 'hater' and pull the kind of BS you've been pulling here, and in other threads. What's worse is that you've shown twice in this thread that you're not paying much attention to whats presented to you, and instead chose to make it seem as though I'm persecuting you by drawing your attention to the fact ... so, quite frankly boo-hoo, I have every right to object to such behaviour.

best ... khay
He was not seeking deference, he was trying to avoid being essentially attacked for trying to help, he was not "crying 'hater'", he was trying to get you to calm down and actually focus on the problem at hand instead of charging at the red flag by his username, and you complaining about his purported lack of attention to the information presented is hypocritical at best. Dial the rhetoric back, you crossed the line between debate and harangue. Do not pick on developers who are trying to help just because you dislike what other developers are doing. Better yet, do not pick on any developers; provide constructive criticism, not screed.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
khayyam wrote:
Leio wrote:
I told to try tripleclick to see if it selects multiple visual lines or the real line with multiple visual lines due to wrapping. You go on some random rant about the meaning of triple click, paragraph selection and whatever else. This isn't your personal chat board, try to stick to the topic and help the person asking, not go into some huge chat in every topic you reply, which appears to be all of them.

Leio ... it is called "discussion", and my points, much to your chagrin, are perfectly on topic ... but thanks for the advice.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you sort of grabbed the triple click ball and ran off with it while proclaiming the superiority of Pythagoras due to his bean phobia. He was inquiring as to the sources of spurious line breaks, you... were doing something else entirely, which might have eventually become relevant, but only after the source of the spurious line breaks was actually found and dealt with.

desultory ... that is untrue, except for the part about me wading in a sea of re-fried beans, my first post in this thread goes some way toward explaining why copy&paste (be that click&drag, or double/triple click) from less (and the terminal in general, particularly when ncurses is involved) will often produce the results the OP was experiencing, less is often pre-processing/formatting the 'page' and as such when copy&pasting you get the formatting too (in this case line wraps). So, this was "relevant" from the get go, as the "source" was, to some degree of certainty, identified. As for my grabbing the vegetables and flying off with them to superiorityland, my first post replying to Lieo (which was cordial and did not warrant his "[you] just wants to argue and post" response) simply suggested he try triple click on the examples I provided so as to show that "just works" may not always be the case. That said, for you to typify me as the baddy in all this, and "doing something else entirely" seems to me to lack any account of those facts, I'm tempted to see this as a case of the wagon's circling, or of you feeling I need to be taken down a peg or two (because, perhaps, I'm an often vocal critic of developers, the direction gentoo is taking, etc, etc).

desultory wrote:
So, do kindly bear in mind that the Discussion (& Documentation) forums are somewhat farther down the front page than the Assistance forums, which include Desktop Environments, and if you really must engage in non-linear discussion, there are places that will happily welcome you... with inquiries about gladiator movies. (Note: I am not inviting such discussion, nor meta-discussion, here; bearing the hue of a citrus fruit has its privileges.)

I'll have you kindly bear in mind that the forum header states "gentoo discussion forums", and that I have no need of being pointed, retro-linearly, in the wrong direction with regard to what sort of discussion takes place where, and the double standards applied wrt moderation in relation to those places.

Leio wrote:
Konsole probably then doesn't handle things right, as I said originally - this is hard to get right while keeping the performance for the main use cases. Thanks for confirming this, as I assume You are using Konsole as well and confirming all these issues.

khayyam wrote:
You assume this even though I said "I don't use kconsole" in the above? That shows, again, you're not reading (something that is required in a "discussion", more so than innuendo and accusation). Anyhow, your obviously not prepared to listen to, and try, what I presented above (and so see what sorts of selections might be made based on what is being paged.

desultory wrote:
Again, pause to think about your reply for just a moment: you stating that you do not use thing[X] in the general case does not preclude your use of thing [X] in the specific case of checking on the behaviour upon which you are commenting, perhaps a more complete expression of avoidance could have made it clear that you were not actually describing experience.

Nonsense, I was perfectly clear ITR:

khayyam wrote:
I'm pretty sure the last time I used kconsole you would not get the kind of selection you seem to think its "supposed to". I don't use kconsole so I could be wrong [...]

Note the proviso ... there is nothing in that that might lead someone to believe that I was "using Konsole as well and confirming all these issues", unless they simply weren't paying much in the way of attention. Combine that with "I'm not going to be running some random script" and the necessity of a "pause" isn't required.

khayyam wrote:
It seems to me like you are retreating into defensiveness, copy selection in the OP's case is probably click and drag, and as I initially wrote this copies what is displayed by PAGER, and in some cases this will contain wraps not in the input. If using triple click then you might get a paragraph, a selection between `quote', or something nested between braces, and even so only one paragraph. If you return to my initial post in this thread I suggested this isn't the optimal way to do things, and that less (and other pagers) provide a means (VISUAL, 'v') for selecting the text in a way that avoids the kinds of problems shown by the OP. So, lets assume they don't want to take this route, my examples above should show that it doesn't "just work", and that expecting the gui will do the right thing, or do it effectively, is incorrect (again, its not intelligent enough).

desultory wrote:
Getting defensive while complaining that you have browbeaten someone else into a defensive posture is... rather curious. Again, he was trying to isolate the source of the problem, once that is done a solution can be prepared and tested, jumping ahead in that process can sometimes work, but is often a waste of time, especially to those trying to follow the advice thus generated.

You seem to be applying a entirely subjective criteria for who is doing what, to whom, and selectively narrating a particular storyline. I say selectively because you omit that once upon a time (ie, from the outset) I was the bad princess suggesting cinderella do something yucky and test if the magic slipper "just works", and by my doing so they didn't live happily ever after, because the bad princess just wanna argue. Add to this other twists in the tale, like when the bad princess browbeats the poor cinderella for going off script, and ad-libing her own narrative, and you have just the sort of fairy tale that anyone might take for real life, or some similitude of it. So, no, if I draw someones attention to their not reading, or their playing the "offtopic", "tirades" cards, etc, then this isn't "browbeating", this is a perfectly valid response.

khayyam wrote:
This is generally what happens when developers come to the forum, they don't receive the deference they expect, and when their POV is challenged in any way they start crying 'hater' and pull the kind of BS you've been pulling here, and in other threads. What's worse is that you've shown twice in this thread that you're not paying much attention to whats presented to you, and instead chose to make it seem as though I'm persecuting you by drawing your attention to the fact ... so, quite frankly boo-hoo, I have every right to object to such behaviour.

desultory wrote:
He was not seeking deference, he was trying to avoid being essentially attacked for trying to help, he was not "crying 'hater'", he was trying to get you to calm down and actually focus on the problem at hand instead of charging at the red flag by his username, and you complaining about his purported lack of attention to the information presented is hypocritical at best. Dial the rhetoric back, you crossed the line between debate and harangue. Do not pick on developers who are trying to help just because you dislike what other developers are doing. Better yet, do not pick on any developers; provide constructive criticism, not screed.

There is a history to this, he had in fact "call[ed] hater" (and trolling/offtopic) in another recent thread, and when such tricks are pulled out of the bag repeatedly (when challenged on the "just works [if you happen to be using the one true way]") then you can see that I might take this as a sign that, yes, they shouldn't be challenged on such things and should be treated with deference ITR. This is coupled with similar instances with other developers (ssunomien, rich0, mgorny, and others) who have a similar perchance for calling 'hater' (or "keeping the majority happy") as a safety valve, and turnaround, for anyone questioning the path being taken (and effects) whatever the nature of that "criticism" might be. Yes, I don't like it, particularly when what they are pushing effects me and my ability to use gentoo in a reasonable fashion, and so I'm prepared to argue forcibly on both the issues, and their use of the rhetorical black arts to silence that criticism.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
desultory wrote:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but you sort of grabbed the triple click ball and ran off with it while proclaiming the superiority of Pythagoras due to his bean phobia. He was inquiring as to the sources of spurious line breaks, you... were doing something else entirely, which might have eventually become relevant, but only after the source of the spurious line breaks was actually found and dealt with.

desultory ... that is untrue, except for the part about me wading in a sea of re-fried beans, my first post in this thread goes some way toward explaining why copy&paste (be that click&drag, or double/triple click) from less (and the terminal in general, particularly when ncurses is involved) will often produce the results the OP was experiencing, less is often pre-processing/formatting the 'page' and as such when copy&pasting you get the formatting too (in this case line wraps). So, this was "relevant" from the get go, as the "source" was, to some degree of certainty, identified.
You having decided that your explanation was sufficient does not, in any way, mean that it was at all clear to the one to whom your explanation was offered, it does not even mean that your explanation is even entirely correct, it certainly does not mean that others are not allowed to comment and seek clarification. Going further, effectively proclaiming that an attempt to gather a specific set of data is pointless because it has been dismissed by your mental model is also not necessarily correct, especially as it appears that you had not correctly interpreted why that data was being sought.

khayyam wrote:
As for my grabbing the vegetables and flying off with them to superiorityland, my first post replying to Lieo (which was cordial and did not warrant his "[you] just wants to argue and post" response) simply suggested he try triple click on the examples I provided so as to show that "just works" may not always be the case.
He commented about triple click behavior and offered some conditional advice, you replied to the effect that triple click is not a panacea, that it does not do things that it is not meant to do, either missing or ignoring the point of the comment and advice; describing that as "cordial" is "disingenuous".

khayyam wrote:
That said, for you to typify me as the baddy in all this, and "doing something else entirely" seems to me to lack any account of those facts, I'm tempted to see this as a case of the wagon's circling, or of you feeling I need to be taken down a peg or two (because, perhaps, I'm an often vocal critic of developers, the direction gentoo is taking, etc, etc).
See it however you please, the intent is quite simply to request that you tone down your "cordial" approach to interaction here.

khayyam wrote:
desultory wrote:
So, do kindly bear in mind that the Discussion (& Documentation) forums are somewhat farther down the front page than the Assistance forums, which include Desktop Environments, and if you really must engage in non-linear discussion, there are places that will happily welcome you... with inquiries about gladiator movies. (Note: I am not inviting such discussion, nor meta-discussion, here; bearing the hue of a citrus fruit has its privileges.)

I'll have you kindly bear in mind that the forum header states "gentoo discussion forums", and that I have no need of being pointed, retro-linearly, in the wrong direction with regard to what sort of discussion takes place where, and the double standards applied wrt moderation in relation to those places.
Alright then, I get it, you feel the need to be told in plainest terms.

If you feel the need to explore the tolerance levels of others on this site, there is one, and only one, place where you can do that, and even in that place there are limits. This is not that place, where this was split from is also not that place.

khayyam wrote:
Leio wrote:
Konsole probably then doesn't handle things right, as I said originally - this is hard to get right while keeping the performance for the main use cases. Thanks for confirming this, as I assume You are using Konsole as well and confirming all these issues.

khayyam wrote:
You assume this even though I said "I don't use kconsole" in the above? That shows, again, you're not reading (something that is required in a "discussion", more so than innuendo and accusation). Anyhow, your obviously not prepared to listen to, and try, what I presented above (and so see what sorts of selections might be made based on what is being paged.

desultory wrote:
Again, pause to think about your reply for just a moment: you stating that you do not use thing[X] in the general case does not preclude your use of thing [X] in the specific case of checking on the behaviour upon which you are commenting, perhaps a more complete expression of avoidance could have made it clear that you were not actually describing experience.

Nonsense, I was perfectly clear ITR:

khayyam wrote:
I'm pretty sure the last time I used kconsole you would not get the kind of selection you seem to think its "supposed to". I don't use kconsole so I could be wrong [...]

Note the proviso ... there is nothing in that that might lead someone to believe that I was "using Konsole as well and confirming all these issues", unless they simply weren't paying much in the way of attention.
It is perfectly clear from that quote that you have indeed used "kconsole", and that you can in fact attest to it displaying certain behavior when you did use it, but that it is not your primary terminal interface, or at the very least that you make such claims.

khayyam wrote:
Combine that with "I'm not going to be running some random script" and the necessity of a "pause" isn't required.
It rather evidently is required. Others have commented to me about your ability to generate significant amounts of text in seemingly short periods of time, sometimes missing the question of whether is was entirely advisable to publish that text in that manner. Evidently, you ignore that question entirely.

khayyam wrote:
khayyam wrote:
It seems to me like you are retreating into defensiveness, copy selection in the OP's case is probably click and drag, and as I initially wrote this copies what is displayed by PAGER, and in some cases this will contain wraps not in the input. If using triple click then you might get a paragraph, a selection between `quote', or something nested between braces, and even so only one paragraph. If you return to my initial post in this thread I suggested this isn't the optimal way to do things, and that less (and other pagers) provide a means (VISUAL, 'v') for selecting the text in a way that avoids the kinds of problems shown by the OP. So, lets assume they don't want to take this route, my examples above should show that it doesn't "just work", and that expecting the gui will do the right thing, or do it effectively, is incorrect (again, its not intelligent enough).

desultory wrote:
Getting defensive while complaining that you have browbeaten someone else into a defensive posture is... rather curious. Again, he was trying to isolate the source of the problem, once that is done a solution can be prepared and tested, jumping ahead in that process can sometimes work, but is often a waste of time, especially to those trying to follow the advice thus generated.

You seem to be applying a entirely subjective criteria for who is doing what, to whom, and selectively narrating a particular storyline. I say selectively because you omit that once upon a time (ie, from the outset) I was the bad princess suggesting cinderella do something yucky and test if the magic slipper "just works", and by my doing so they didn't live happily ever after, because the bad princess just wanna argue. Add to this other twists in the tale, like when the bad princess browbeats the poor cinderella for going off script, and ad-libing her own narrative, and you have just the sort of fairy tale that anyone might take for real life, or some similitude of it. So, no, if I draw someones attention to their not reading, or their playing the "offtopic", "tirades" cards, etc, then this isn't "browbeating", this is a perfectly valid response.
Alright then, fairy tale form it is....

Once upon a time in a magical land that does not actually exist, there was a grumpy princess who was a fan of a persian mathematician/astronomer/poet/etc. (or an indian composer), who had taken to sharing her grumpiness with others. One day, princess grumpy decided that she did not like something that a developer did, so she told everyone that it was bad, and since it was systemd, they generally agreed. Princess grumpy took this as a sign that people like to read kvetching from princess grumpy, and they needed more of it so that they could be grumpy like her too. Princess grumpy then noticed that downstream developers were doing things that she was not fond of, so she told everyone about that, and since it was about split /usr or somesuch, there was nodding and grousing, and princess grumpy saw this and thought it was good. Then princess grumpy had an epiphany: downstream developers sometimes come into the magical land that does not actually exist, and she can share her grumpiness with them personally, regardless of whether those particular developers had anything to do with things that princess grumpy did not like. And so princess grumpy began engaging downstream developers in the magical land, and for a time the developers engaged princes grumpy, and others took part in conversations, and the wardens of the magical land watched and did not intervene. Eventually, princess grumpy decided that it would be a good idea to badger a downstream developer who was just trying to help another user that princess grumpy had already graced with her presence, and the wardens of the magical land finally had enough of princess grumpy pulling her now typical princess grumpy routine, and they asked her to tone it down, since princess grumpy's old schtick was old, and wearing thin on the wardens' patience. Princess grumpy decided that it was a fine time to tell the warden tasked with the quixotic quest exactly where to stick their perspective on princess grumpy's ongoing behavior, so the warden took note, and set a copy of the note in front of princess grumpy and told her: your move, princess.

khayyam wrote:
khayyam wrote:
This is generally what happens when developers come to the forum, they don't receive the deference they expect, and when their POV is challenged in any way they start crying 'hater' and pull the kind of BS you've been pulling here, and in other threads. What's worse is that you've shown twice in this thread that you're not paying much attention to whats presented to you, and instead chose to make it seem as though I'm persecuting you by drawing your attention to the fact ... so, quite frankly boo-hoo, I have every right to object to such behaviour.

desultory wrote:
He was not seeking deference, he was trying to avoid being essentially attacked for trying to help, he was not "crying 'hater'", he was trying to get you to calm down and actually focus on the problem at hand instead of charging at the red flag by his username, and you complaining about his purported lack of attention to the information presented is hypocritical at best. Dial the rhetoric back, you crossed the line between debate and harangue. Do not pick on developers who are trying to help just because you dislike what other developers are doing. Better yet, do not pick on any developers; provide constructive criticism, not screed.

There is a history to this, he had in fact "call[ed] hater" (and trolling/offtopic) in another recent thread, and when such tricks are pulled out of the bag repeatedly (when challenged on the "just works [if you happen to be using the one true way]") then you can see that I might take this as a sign that, yes, they shouldn't be challenged on such things and should be treated with deference ITR.
Do you really, truly want to drag past behaviors into this discussion? Because you have a pattern of reacting overly aggressively to anyone marked as a developer.

khayyam wrote:
This is coupled with similar instances with other developers (ssunomien, rich0, mgorny, and others) who have a similar perchance for calling 'hater' (or "keeping the majority happy") as a safety valve, and turnaround, for anyone questioning the path being taken (and effects) whatever the nature of that "criticism" might be.
Just to remind you, leio is not mgorny, nor ssuominen, nor rich0, nor anyone but leio. Further, whatever mgorny writes on his blog is irrelevant here, unless he were to use it as a platform to launch personal attacks against users here or some other analogous and equally ridiculous thing. If you have a problem with a policy, you are entirely free to criticize the policy; you are not free to harangue those proposing or backing it, and certainly not anyone who just happens to also be a developer.

khayyam wrote:
Yes, I don't like it, particularly when what they are pushing effects me and my ability to use gentoo in a reasonable fashion, and so I'm prepared to argue forcibly on both the issues, and their use of the rhetorical black arts to silence that criticism.
Like it or not, it is not your role here to manage such things, merely to report them.

Split from "line breaks using less".
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Roman_Gruber
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Proper title for a topic, sarcasm
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but you sort of grabbed the triple click ball and ran off with it while proclaiming the superiority of Pythagoras due to his bean phobia. He was inquiring as to the sources of spurious line breaks, you... were doing something else entirely, which might have eventually become relevant, but only after the source of the spurious line breaks was actually found and dealt with.

khayyam wrote:
desultory ... that is untrue, except for the part about me wading in a sea of re-fried beans, my first post in this thread goes some way toward explaining why copy&paste (be that click&drag, or double/triple click) from less (and the terminal in general, particularly when ncurses is involved) will often produce the results the OP was experiencing, less is often pre-processing/formatting the 'page' and as such when copy&pasting you get the formatting too (in this case line wraps). So, this was "relevant" from the get go, as the "source" was, to some degree of certainty, identified.

desultory wrote:
You having decided that your explanation was sufficient does not, in any way, mean that it was at all clear to the one to whom your explanation was offered, it does not even mean that your explanation is even entirely correct, it certainly does not mean that others are not allowed to comment and seek clarification. Going further, effectively proclaiming that an attempt to gather a specific set of data is pointless because it has been dismissed by your mental model is also not necessarily correct, especially as it appears that you had not correctly interpreted why that data was being sought.

desultory ... I didn't "decide [my] explanation was sufficient", all I did was reply to what Leio had written (and not in a way that could be given the label "aggressive"), you are now trying to make it seem as though this was somehow throwing a grenade into the discussion, disallowing others "comment", "proclaiming [...] pointless", and so loading the case against me. So, what was it about that post that warrants your seeing it as anything other than discussion, and what in it do you think prompts Leio to jump to "sounds like someone just want to argue"? I didn't say "no, you're wrong, that's pointless, that's not what the OP is asking, your stupid, etc, etc", I composed a perfectly "cordial" reply to what was written, and I shouldn't have to justify doing so, particularly as it is what you might expect in a "discussion".

khayyam wrote:
As for my grabbing the vegetables and flying off with them to superiorityland, my first post replying to Lieo (which was cordial and did not warrant his "[you] just wants to argue and post" response) simply suggested he try triple click on the examples I provided so as to show that "just works" may not always be the case.

desultory wrote:
He commented about triple click behaviour and offered some conditional advice, you replied to the effect that triple click is not a panacea, that it does not do things that it is not meant to do, either missing or ignoring the point of the comment and advice; describing that as "cordial" is "disingenuous".

You are determined to see it as a counter-argument when it was primarily explanatory, there is a reason why copy&paste from a terminal is prone to the sort of results the OP exhibited, they are born of two different paradigms, and the terminal (kconsole, or what-have-you) doesn't bridge that gap, at least in every case in which copy&paste is involved (so, click&drag, or double/triple click). In my own experience, which I'm offering, selecting text in this way won't always result in WYSIWYG, and the examples I provided illustrate some of these instances. That is explanatory, and it was offered so as to show how getting the desired behaviour may involve changing the frame of reference (or paradigm) used. The fact that I'm having to justify saying this seems more than strange, as it seems obvious to me that such comments are perfectly in line with the subject under discussion, regardless of what you are attempting to make of it.

khayyam wrote:
That said, for you to typify me as the baddy in all this, and "doing something else entirely" seems to me to lack any account of those facts, I'm tempted to see this as a case of the wagon's circling, or of you feeling I need to be taken down a peg or two (because, perhaps, I'm an often vocal critic of developers, the direction gentoo is taking, etc, etc).

desultory wrote:
See it however you please, the intent is quite simply to request that you tone down your "cordial" approach to interaction here.

That's fair enough, and I'll take it under advisement. However, shouldn't any such case against me be based on fact, and not simply on your subjective assessment?

desultory wrote:
So, do kindly bear in mind that the Discussion (& Documentation) forums are somewhat farther down the front page than the Assistance forums, which include Desktop Environments, and if you really must engage in non-linear discussion, there are places that will happily welcome you [...]

khayyam wrote:
I'll have you kindly bear in mind that the forum header states "gentoo discussion forums", and that I have no need of being pointed, retro-linearly, in the wrong direction with regard to what sort of discussion takes place where, and the double standards applied wrt moderation in relation to those places.

desultory wrote:
Alright then, I get it, you feel the need to be told in plainest terms.

I'm not sure you do get it, if I'm told to take such discussion elsewhere (such as OTW) then isn't that effectively saying that there are double standards involved, and why is that? There is nothing in what I've written that doesn't fall under the category of "discussion", within the topic and development of that discussion, and if I'm expected to move to OTW when that discussion turns to mush (for whatever reason) then what am I being asked to do here ... other than shut up.

desultory wrote:
If you feel the need to explore the tolerance levels of others on this site, there is one, and only one, place where you can do that, and even in that place there are limits. This is not that place, where this was split from is also not that place.

You can see it as exploring tolerance levels, or what-have-you, I do not. I see what I do as speaking my mind, and attempting to do so within an often chaotic, if not hostile, environment. I wouldn't argue I'm perfect or without flaws (some of which you might take to be exhibited as my style of argument) but I don't go out of my way to antagonise people, nor do I take the guidelines as something non applicable to me. If I am in violation of those guidelines in some way then that I'm prepared to discuss, but in regard to this particular intervention I'm inclined to go with my initial assessment that this is mostly an attempt to silence me simply because I have been critical of certain developers.

khayyam wrote:
Nonsense, I was perfectly clear ITR:

khayyam wrote:
I'm pretty sure the last time I used kconsole you would not get the kind of selection you seem to think its "supposed to". I don't use kconsole so I could be wrong [...]

Note the proviso ... there is nothing in that that might lead someone to believe that I was "using Konsole as well and confirming all these issues", unless they simply weren't paying much in the way of attention.

desultory wrote:
It is perfectly clear from that quote that you have indeed used "kconsole", and that you can in fact attest to it displaying certain behaviour when you did use it, but that it is not your primary terminal interface, or at the very least that you make such claims.

Yes, many years ago, hence "I could be wrong". Regardless, the way that sentence reads doesn't lead to "checking" and "describing experience", and so I don't see what you're trying to create space for with your suggestion of my reflecting on what I'd said.

khayyam wrote:
Combine that with "I'm not going to be running some random script" and the necessity of a "pause" isn't required.

desultory wrote:
It rather evidently is required. Others have commented to me about your ability to generate significant amounts of text in seemingly short periods of time, sometimes missing the question of whether is was entirely advisable to publish that text in that manner. Evidently, you ignore that question entirely.

The "pause" in the above is whether I should stop and consider if Lieo was reading, and if I allow that the "using kcosole [and] confirming the issue", could be a simple misreading, in at least one case (my, supposedly, expecting him to "run[...] some random script") such a pause was definitely not required. Now, what others say (to you) about my posts, or the advisability of my posting, what is it in that I have "evidently [...] ignored"? You seem to be wrapping this up in a nice neat bundle. So, some people either don't like, appreciate, or agree with, my posts, that may well be the case, but isn't that to be expected, and how should I know what others have said to you personally, or the veracity of their comments, and what in this should give me a clue as to what I need to do before hitting 'submit'?

khayyam wrote:
You seem to be applying a entirely subjective criteria for who is doing what, to whom, and selectively narrating a particular storyline. [...] So, no, if I draw someones attention to their not reading, or their playing the "offtopic", "tirades" cards, etc, then this isn't "browbeating", this is a perfectly valid response.

desultory wrote:
Alright then, fairy tale form it is....

In my case the tale was used to illustrate a point, with a lead-in and lead-out, yours on the other hand is little more than subjective narration ... confirming my argument.

desultory wrote:
: your move, princess.

Well, you've pretty much forced me into a corner, shut up ... or

desultory wrote:
Dial the rhetoric back, you crossed the line between debate and harangue. Do not pick on developers who are trying to help just because you dislike what other developers are doing. Better yet, do not pick on any developers; provide constructive criticism, not screed.

khayyam wrote:
There is a history to this, he had in fact "call[ed] hater" (and trolling/offtopic) in another recent thread, and when such tricks are pulled out of the bag repeatedly (when challenged on the "just works [if you happen to be using the one true way]") then you can see that I might take this as a sign that, yes, they shouldn't be challenged on such things and should be treated with deference ITR.

desultory wrote:
Do you really, truly want to drag past behaviors into this discussion? Because you have a pattern of reacting overly aggressively to anyone marked as a developer.

No, they just happen to be developers, and I could probably cite counter-evidence in the form of developers posting here who I've never had so much as the slightest run in with. The fact that they are developers shouldn't matter, it is the arguments presented that I may take issue with, and for the most part I would consider my treatment of them to be critical, not aggressive (there is a difference between criticism and animosity). I am similarly made to answer for my views, and not always in a way that I would regard as friendly, or fair, but then I'm a grown up princess and have to roll with it.

khayyam wrote:
This is coupled with similar instances with other developers (ssunomien, rich0, mgorny, and others) who have a similar perchance for calling 'hater' (or "keeping the majority happy") as a safety valve, and turnaround, for anyone questioning the path being taken (and effects) whatever the nature of that "criticism" might be.

desultory wrote:
Just to remind you, leio is not mgorny, nor ssuominen, nor rich0, nor anyone but leio. Further, whatever mgorny writes on his blog is irrelevant here, unless he were to use it as a platform to launch personal attacks against users here or some other analogous and equally ridiculous thing. If you have a problem with a policy, you are entirely free to criticize the policy; you are not free to harangue those proposing or backing it, and certainly not anyone who just happens to also be a developer.

Why would you think I need reminded in that regard, the digression was provided to show why I might seem to be in conflict with "developers", and what that conflict might consist of. I am, for the most part, "critical of policy" (or developers perception of it), but when the discussion shifts into these attempts at making me seem hateful, or other examples of the black arts (as it invariably does), then I'm going to call it for what it is.

khayyam wrote:
Yes, I don't like it, particularly when what they are pushing effects me and my ability to use gentoo in a reasonable fashion, and so I'm prepared to argue forcibly on both the issues, and their use of the rhetorical black arts to silence that criticism.

desultory wrote:
Like it or not, it is not your role here to manage such things, merely to report them.

I have in the past reported far, far, worse violations of the guidelines, and nothing was done about it, I've also seen the "light hand" run ever so lightly across any number of discussions I've been involved with (to the extent that reporting such stuff would make me stand out as report happy ... and I've even been accused of this on one occasion). Because of this I now take it that where necessary (ie, on subjects I care about expressing my views) I'll fight my own corner, and by fight I mean argue, not beat my interlocutor to a pulp, or subsume their arguments with rhetorical tricks. That is what I mean by "argue forcibly", and from here it seems I either do that, or go silent.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roman_Gruber wrote:
Proper title for a topic, sarcasm
Actually, yes, sarcastically referring to khayyam's one evident attempt at humorous self description as a means of attempting to convey that this is not the Spanish Inquisition, it is just me asking khayyam to try to treat developers in the same manner as other users was entirely deliberate. If it missed the mark, more's the pity. "Digression regarding suboptimal social interaction with developers" would do a grand total of nothing to convey anything other than excessive heavy-handedness.

khayyam wrote:
desultory ... I didn't "decide [my] explanation was sufficient", all I did was reply to what Leio had written (and not in a way that could be given the label "aggressive"), you are now trying to make it seem as though this was somehow throwing a grenade into the discussion, disallowing others "comment", "proclaiming [...] pointless", and so loading the case against me.
You do realize that you quoted exactly the paragraph that indicates that you did do what I described, right?
khayyam wrote:
So, what was it about that post that warrants your seeing it as anything other than discussion, and what in it do you think prompts Leio to jump to "sounds like someone just want to argue"? I didn't say "no, you're wrong, that's pointless, that's not what the OP is asking, your stupid, etc, etc", I composed a perfectly "cordial" reply to what was written, and I shouldn't have to justify doing so, particularly as it is what you might expect in a "discussion".
"$thing works for me, if $thing does not work for you try $how_my_thing_is_configured"
"the very concept of $thing sucks because $thing does not do something that $thing was never meant to do"

Think that is a biased assessment?

Leio wrote:
Copying wrapped lines from less seems to work fine for me. Triple-clicking on a line (which is supposed to do a full line/paragraph select, like doubleclick does word select) is also selecting all the visible lines that are wrapped.
If my "less" is somehow working better than yours, try just wide lines that get wrapped for display outside "less", maybe print them with "cat" and try selection then. Then you can narrow down the problem to be with your "less" or your terminal.
Proper wrapping and rewrapping and line selection is actually rather hard to do how terminal emulator display widgets usually end up as. My terminal gets this mostly right - it's gnome-terminal, but other VTE based ones (mate-terminal, xfce4-terminal, etc) likely have that too, unless using some old vte slot or doing something to break it for VTE.


khayyam wrote:
Leio ... and if you triple click a manpage (which is also handled via $PAGER), or $LINE has `quote', or "quote", or 'quote', or if the selection required spans more, or is less than, a paragraph? Or, what about the following:

Code:
fpath=($zdotdir/{.zsh/*.zwc,.zsh/{functions,scripts}}(N) $fpath)
for d in $fpath; do
  fns=( $d/*~*~(N.x:t) )
  (( ${#fns} )) && autoload $fns
done

Where will you click on this to have the 'paragraph' selected, or even the first line?

Mouse selection (via triple click) has it's own idea of what equates to a line/paragraph and often doesn't conform to what is paged, or how the selection would be made were it made by something with intelligence.

The idea that you would triple click (and pray), focus on another window (kwrite, or what-have-you), paste, focus on kconsole, triple click, focus on kwrite again, etc, etc ... this is the inverse of "computation". Computers are not good at being 'smart', they are good at (repetitive) tasks that can be programmed. If you want to rename a bunch of files from *.JPEG to *.jpg then you don't want to click, backspace, type ".jpg", return, click next file (and yes, this is the gui paradigm), you want a "computer". The same is true for text, and text selection.


He was noting that he does not get the misbehavior that the user saw and offering a potential solution, you came off very much as he put it "like someone just wants to argue and post", either that or you missed the point entirely. A theme carried in to your reaction to that very thing having been pointed out to you.

khayyam wrote:
You are determined to see it as a counter-argument when it was primarily explanatory, there is a reason why copy&paste from a terminal is prone to the sort of results the OP exhibited, they are born of two different paradigms, and the terminal (kconsole, or what-have-you) doesn't bridge that gap, at least in every case in which copy&paste is involved (so, click&drag, or double/triple click). In my own experience, which I'm offering, selecting text in this way won't always result in WYSIWYG, and the examples I provided illustrate some of these instances. That is explanatory, and it was offered so as to show how getting the desired behaviour may involve changing the frame of reference (or paradigm) used.The fact that I'm having to justify saying this seems more than strange, as it seems obvious to me that such comments are perfectly in line with the subject under discussion, regardless of what you are attempting to make of it.
That you have had it pointed out to you as less than desirable should be somewhat of a hint as to why such a strange thing has occurred.

khayyam wrote:
That's fair enough, and I'll take it under advisement. However, shouldn't any such case against me be based on fact, and not simply on your subjective assessment?
What "case against" you? Did the title of the split not give even the slightest hint of "play nice" as opposed to "hello, this is the gestapo, we are here to discuss recent events"? This is me pointing out that you seem to third parties (in this case me) to your conversations with developers and to your conversations with non-developer users to treat developers much more aggressively than non-developer users and asking you to treat developers like you treat non-developers. Well, that and you get very defensive over having that mentioned, with implies that you already know that you do it, deliberately or not. If I just wanted to chase you off, or ban you, or whatever, I would have by now.

khayyam wrote:
I'm not sure you do get it, if I'm told to take such discussion elsewhere (such as OTW) then isn't that effectively saying that there are double standards involved, and why is that?
Because pushing people's buttons is more tolerated there, not without limits, but more than elsewhere. So yes, there is a double standard, because there are two standards being referenced. How was that not clear to begin with?

khayyam wrote:
There is nothing in what I've written that doesn't fall under the category of "discussion", within the topic and development of that discussion, and if I'm expected to move to OTW when that discussion turns to mush (for whatever reason) then what am I being asked to do here ... other than shut up.
Take note of how you interact with a typical non-developer. Take note of how you interact with a typical developer. Adjust the later to more closely approximate the former.

khayyam wrote:
You can see it as exploring tolerance levels, or what-have-you, I do not. I see what I do as speaking my mind, and attempting to do so within an often chaotic, if not hostile, environment. I wouldn't argue I'm perfect or without flaws (some of which you might take to be exhibited as my style of argument) but I don't go out of my way to antagonise people, nor do I take the guidelines as something non applicable to me. If I am in violation of those guidelines in some way then that I'm prepared to discuss, but in regard to this particular intervention I'm inclined to go with my initial assessment that this is mostly an attempt to silence me simply because I have been critical of certain developers.


Quote:
1. Use common sense - Just because it isn't explicitly stated as one of the rules below doesn't mean it's OK. Use common sense and good Netiquette when posting, replying and browsing these forums.

Quote:
Abide by the Code of Conduct.

Quote:
No bashing - If someone is posting about a problem they are experiencing, don't simply tell them they are using the wrong program and recommend they try your recommendation. Instead, provide facts or opinions supporting your recommendation, provide positive feedback, and please keep the criticism low.

And yet, I am still here asking you simply to tone things down.

khayyam wrote:
Yes, many years ago, hence "I could be wrong". Regardless, the way that sentence reads doesn't lead to "checking" and "describing experience", and so I don't see what you're trying to create space for with your suggestion of my reflecting on what I'd said.
If you were not "describing experience", what were you doing? And yes, horrible, evil me is trying to get you to consider how you interact with others while I polish my maniacal laugh and pass cigars around to other members of the cabal.

khayyam wrote:
The "pause" in the above is whether I should stop and consider if Lieo was reading, and if I allow that the "using kcosole [and] confirming the issue", could be a simple misreading, in at least one case (my, supposedly, expecting him to "run[...] some random script") such a pause was definitely not required. Now, what others say (to you) about my posts, or the advisability of my posting, what is it in that I have "evidently [...] ignored"? You seem to be wrapping this up in a nice neat bundle. So, some people either don't like, appreciate, or agree with, my posts, that may well be the case, but isn't that to be expected, and how should I know what others have said to you personally, or the veracity of their comments, and what in this should give me a clue as to what I need to do before hitting 'submit'?
Lots of people disagree with you, welcome to sentience. That developers, even brand new developers, react to you as though you have social plague (not a "social disease", that is... something else) should be something of a hint in itself, regarding how you go about making your points. That I am pointing out that you interact differently with developers and non-developers should be a hint. Evidently not, alas.

khayyam wrote:
khayyam wrote:
You seem to be applying a entirely subjective criteria for who is doing what, to whom, and selectively narrating a particular storyline. [...] So, no, if I draw someones attention to their not reading, or their playing the "offtopic", "tirades" cards, etc, then this isn't "browbeating", this is a perfectly valid response.
Since you took the trouble of quoting yourself, I should probably point out that virtually everyone who is told that they are behaving suboptimally has that sort of response.

khayyam wrote:
In my case the tale was used to illustrate a point, with a lead-in and lead-out, yours on the other hand is little more than subjective narration ... confirming my argument.
Or, rather more likely, confirming that you do not take well to having your own self description parodied to make a point, especially one that you are trying so very hard to ignore.

khayyam wrote:
desultory wrote:
: your move, princess.

Well, you've pretty much forced me into a corner, shut up ... or
Where, exactly, did you get "shut up" from? I have repeatedly asked you to "tone down", not "shut up".

khayyam wrote:
No, they just happen to be developers, and I could probably cite counter-evidence in the form of developers posting here who I've never had so much as the slightest run in with.
You do realize that posting links to accounts of people that you have not interacted with at all is not evidence that you do not interact poorly with the group of users to which they belong when you do interact with them, right?
khayyam wrote:
The fact that they are developers shouldn't matter,
Exactly my point.
khayyam wrote:
it is the arguments presented that I may take issue with, and for the most part I would consider my treatment of them to be critical, not aggressive
I am telling you that it does, often, appear to have crossed that line.
khayyam wrote:
(there is a difference between criticism and animosity).
<sarcasm>Do tell me more about this subject with which I am entirely unacquainted.</sarcasm>
khayyam wrote:
I am similarly made to answer for my views, and not always in a way that I would regard as friendly, or fair, but then I'm a grown up princess and have to roll with it.
I have encountered exceedingly few who are sufficiently objective to consider it fair when someone else tells them that they have misbehaved, but at least you can roll with it.

khayyam wrote:
Why would you think I need reminded in that regard, the digression was provided to show why I might seem to be in conflict with "developers", and what that conflict might consist of. I am, for the most part, "critical of policy" (or developers perception of it), but when the discussion shifts into these attempts at making me seem hateful, or other examples of the black arts (as it invariably does), then I'm going to call it for what it is.
That your behavior patterns strongly correlate posts that come off as aggressive with posts that are in reply to developers indicates that you do need to be reminded that not all developers are the select few that you consider to be boogeymen, wielding "black arts" against you. Even the ones that you do specifically consider to be "black arts" wielding boogeymen do not magically lose coverage under the guidelines because of their status as accused prose-mancers.

khayyam wrote:
I have in the past reported far, far, worse violations of the guidelines, and nothing was done about it, I've also seen the "light hand" run ever so lightly across any number of discussions I've been involved with (to the extent that reporting such stuff would make me stand out as report happy ... and I've even been accused of this on one occasion). Because of this I now take it that where necessary (ie, on subjects I care about expressing my views) I'll fight my own corner, and by fight I mean argue, not beat my interlocutor to a pulp, or subsume their arguments with rhetorical tricks.
Rhetorical tricks like complaining that something does not do what it is not meant to do, or dismissing a suggestion by discarding the very idea of the mechanism in question being a valid interaction model?
khayyam wrote:
That is what I mean by "argue forcibly", and from here it seems I either do that, or go silent.
If all you do is "argue forcibly" or "go silent" then you are far more likely to cross lines without even noticing that you have, just something to consider while you busily dismiss even the suggestion of politesse.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roman_Gruber wrote:
Proper title for a topic, sarcasm

desultory wrote:
Actually, yes, sarcastically referring to khayyam's one evident attempt at humorous self description as a means of attempting to convey that this is not the Spanish Inquisition, it is just me asking khayyam to try to treat developers in the same manner as other users was entirely deliberate. If it missed the mark, more's the pity. "Digression regarding suboptimal social interaction with developers" would do a grand total of nothing to convey anything other than excessive heavy-handedness.

desultory ... it wasn't an "evident attempt at humorous self description", it was an, obviously missed, attempt at pointing to narrative construction (loaded with derision, name calling, and other black arts). That is why I stated you were "confirming my point" when you then went on to tell your own "tale", which was little more than character assassination. I'm now to understand this as light-handedness, or humor ... pffft.

khayyam wrote:
I didn't "decide [my] explanation was sufficient", all I did was reply to what Leio had written (and not in a way that could be given the label "aggressive"), you are now trying to make it seem as though this was somehow throwing a grenade into the discussion, disallowing others "comment", "proclaiming [...] pointless", and so loading the case against me.

desultory wrote:
You do realize that you quoted exactly the paragraph that indicates that you did do what I described, right?

No, you'll have to enlighten me.

khayyam wrote:
So, what was it about that post that warrants your seeing it as anything other than discussion, and what in it do you think prompts Leio to jump to "sounds like someone just want to argue"? I didn't say "no, you're wrong, that's pointless, that's not what the OP is asking, your stupid, etc, etc", I composed a perfectly "cordial" reply to what was written, and I shouldn't have to justify doing so, particularly as it is what you might expect in a "discussion".

desultory wrote:
"$thing works for me, if $thing does not work for you try $how_my_thing_is_configured"
"the very concept of $thing sucks because $thing does not do something that $thing was never meant to do"

You are narrative building, please re-read what I wrote above wrt different paradigms. Your analogy expects that less, or a terminal, should behave as a gui might behave, and that pointing to that difference is an expression of $sucks, and not an expression of $fact. Additionally, I pointed to VISUAL,v because it is how $thing_works, and explained that there is no avoiding this $fact if you want $thing_to_work (ie, in cases where click&drag, or double/triple click doesn't). I never said, kconsole sucks, I merely pointed to the difference involved, and how the particular problem the OP experienced relate to those differences, and added to this how doing things in the way less is programmed to do is more flexible, less prone to issues, etc.

desultory wrote:
Think that is a biased assessment?

Yes, to the extent that it is selective in its focus, and to the extent that I'm having to justify it.

desultory wrote:
He was noting that he does not get the misbehavior that the user saw and offering a potential solution, you came off very much as he put it "like someone just wants to argue and post", either that or you missed the point entirely. A theme carried in to your reaction to that very thing having been pointed out to you.

He didn't understand what was being presented, hence his "not going to run a random script", nor did he want to test if in fact, in certain circumstances, he may get the same behaviour as the OP, or to put it another way it doesn't "just work". That, to me, is worthy of discussion, but throwing another "you just hater" is not.

khayyam wrote:
You are determined to see it as a counter-argument when it was primarily explanatory, there is a reason why copy&paste from a terminal is prone to the sort of results the OP exhibited, they are born of two different paradigms, and the terminal (kconsole, or what-have-you) doesn't bridge that gap, at least in every case in which copy&paste is involved (so, click&drag, or double/triple click). In my own experience, which I'm offering, selecting text in this way won't always result in WYSIWYG, and the examples I provided illustrate some of these instances. That is explanatory, and it was offered so as to show how getting the desired behaviour may involve changing the frame of reference (or paradigm) used. The fact that I'm having to justify saying this seems more than strange, as it seems obvious to me that such comments are perfectly in line with the subject under discussion, regardless of what you are attempting to make of it.

desultory wrote:
That you have had it pointed out to you as less than desirable should be somewhat of a hint as to why such a strange thing has occurred.

Which given what I'd written, and what your seemingly replying to, is a tautology, the thing being "pointed out", or "hint[ed]", is the "strange thing".

khayyam wrote:
That's fair enough, and I'll take it under advisement. However, shouldn't any such case against me be based on fact, and not simply on your subjective assessment?

desultory wrote:
What "case against" you? Did the title of the split not give even the slightest hint of "play nice" as opposed to "hello, this is the gestapo, we are here to discuss recent events"? This is me pointing out that you seem to third parties (in this case me) to your conversations with developers and to your conversations with non-developer users to treat developers much more aggressively than non-developer users and asking you to treat developers like you treat non-developers. Well, that and you get very defensive over having that mentioned, with implies that you already know that you do it, deliberately or not. If I just wanted to chase you off, or ban you, or whatever, I would have by now.

Well, my "engag[ing] in non-linear discussion", "[g]etting defensive", "browbeat[ing]", "charging at the red flag", "hypocr[acy]", "kvetching", and all the other wrongs I've been "very defensive" about. You use the term "hint" (here and elsewhere) as though I'm dumb to what is being presented, and as though it neatly points to one thing (me "playing nice" with developers), but after having stated "fair enough" to that point, and then asking why it has taken the form it has, I'm taken to be "defensive", with that furthering implying I "already know". If I disagree with you its because I think your wrong, not because doing so gives me an out, or some defence.

khayyam wrote:
I'm not sure you do get it, if I'm told to take such discussion elsewhere (such as OTW) then isn't that effectively saying that there are double standards involved, and why is that?

desultory wrote:
Because pushing people's buttons is more tolerated there, not without limits, but more than elsewhere. So yes, there is a double standard, because there are two standards being referenced. How was that not clear to begin with?

A "because" is not an answer as to why, why are there two standards?

khayyam wrote:
There is nothing in what I've written that doesn't fall under the category of "discussion", within the topic and development of that discussion, and if I'm expected to move to OTW when that discussion turns to mush (for whatever reason) then what am I being asked to do here ... other than shut up.

desultory wrote:
Take note of how you interact with a typical non-developer. Take note of how you interact with a typical developer. Adjust the later to more closely approximate the former.

That wasn't the question, when does it go from being suitable in one locale to requiring I move it to another, and how is such a transition possible. You stated "if you really must engage in non-linear discussion, there are places that will happily welcome you", that either means I'm OT for this particular discussion (and so should look "farther down the front page") or in general I should be doing that (because that is the correct place for "discussion"). That is why I ask "what am I being asked to do here", because I don't know how the former would work, or why I'm being asked to do the later.

khayyam wrote:
You can see it as exploring tolerance levels, or what-have-you, I do not. I see what I do as speaking my mind, and attempting to do so within an often chaotic, if not hostile, environment. I wouldn't argue I'm perfect or without flaws (some of which you might take to be exhibited as my style of argument) but I don't go out of my way to antagonise people, nor do I take the guidelines as something non applicable to me. If I am in violation of those guidelines in some way then that I'm prepared to discuss, but in regard to this particular intervention I'm inclined to go with my initial assessment that this is mostly an attempt to silence me simply because I have been critical of certain developers.

desultory wrote:
Quote:
1. Use common sense - Just because it isn't explicitly stated as one of the rules below doesn't mean it's OK. Use common sense and good Netiquette when posting, replying and browsing these forums.

Quote:
Abide by the Code of Conduct.

Quote:
No bashing - If someone is posting about a problem they are experiencing, don't simply tell them they are using the wrong program and recommend they try your recommendation. Instead, provide facts or opinions supporting your recommendation, provide positive feedback, and please keep the criticism low.

And yet, I am still here asking you simply to tone things down.

All of which are supposed to provide evidence of my not having "used common sense", "provide[ed] facts or opinions", and so ramped up the "criticism"? I accept that moderation comes down to making judgement calls, and that often getting people to behave in a vaguely decent manner requires that such judgement calls can be made, but in this instance I feel I'm at the sharp end of arbitrariness, how does your above "tale" dovetail with the above common sense, or netiquette, or how often has the eye of moderation looked the other way when users are subject to developers, ie, chiding them with "does that make you feel happier", or are given a "reality check", or any number of other put downs, handwaving, and otherwise casting users in the role of non-contributing members of our community? Developers are not treated the same, we are expected to treat them with deference regardless of behaviour, including when they clearly reneg on the very thing that provides them with the right to claim the name. As I said initially I've been a vocal opponent of such behaviour (and the culture that underwrites it) and so I'm altogether sceptical about your claim to my "charging at the red flag" in that regard, there is more to it than that, and if I should need to have the guidelines presented to me then they had better be applied in a way that takes these other factors into account.

khayyam wrote:
Yes, many years ago, hence "I could be wrong". Regardless, the way that sentence reads doesn't lead to "checking" and "describing experience", and so I don't see what you're trying to create space for with your suggestion of my reflecting on what I'd said.

desultory wrote:
If you were not "describing experience", what were you doing? And yes, horrible, evil me is trying to get you to consider how you interact with others while I polish my maniacal laugh and pass cigars around to other members of the cabal.

Among other things I was saying "I don't use kconsole", and given the entirety of the statement it shouldn't be inferred that I was using and confirming the behaviour.

khayyam wrote:
The "pause" in the above is whether I should stop and consider if Lieo was reading, and if I allow that the "using kcosole [and] confirming the issue", could be a simple misreading, in at least one case (my, supposedly, expecting him to "run[...] some random script") such a pause was definitely not required. Now, what others say (to you) about my posts, or the advisability of my posting, what is it in that I have "evidently [...] ignored"? You seem to be wrapping this up in a nice neat bundle. So, some people either don't like, appreciate, or agree with, my posts, that may well be the case, but isn't that to be expected, and how should I know what others have said to you personally, or the veracity of their comments, and what in this should give me a clue as to what I need to do before hitting 'submit'?

desultory wrote:
Lots of people disagree with you, welcome to sentience. That developers, even brand new developers, react to you as though you have social plague (not a "social disease", that is... something else) should be something of a hint in itself, regarding how you go about making your points. That I am pointing out that you interact differently with developers and non-developers should be a hint. Evidently not, alas.

I'm not sure I even understand what a "social plague" would be, or how that gears with what it is in reply to, and if I'm taken as one then I'm quite happy to play that role if doing the opposite means having to overlook the facts of the matter. As for "interact differently", the clue is in the inter component, users may get a less bubonic me because they behave differently, and so the course of the interaction is different. Developers on the other hand (and I mean specific developers, those I may be seen to be in conflict with) tend to expect that their BS is given due deference, and that they are not subject to the community because they happen to be developers and provide their labour free of charge.

khayyam wrote:
You seem to be applying a entirely subjective criteria for who is doing what, to whom, and selectively narrating a particular storyline. [...] So, no, if I draw someones attention to their not reading, or their playing the "offtopic", "tirades" cards, etc, then this isn't "browbeating", this is a perfectly valid response.

desultory wrote:
Since you took the trouble of quoting yourself, I should probably point out that virtually everyone who is told that they are behaving suboptimally has that sort of response.

I quoted myself because where possible I try to keep the subject in focus. In this case it is "narrating a particular storyline", something you then took as a licence to go for my character (and so confirming my point), so perhaps I should be the one pointing things out in a similar manner, but I dislike making my points operate as traps for the unwary.

khayyam wrote:
In my case the tale was used to illustrate a point, with a lead-in and lead-out, yours on the other hand is little more than subjective narration ... confirming my argument.

desultory wrote:
Or, rather more likely, confirming that you do not take well to having your own self description parodied to make a point, especially one that you are trying so very hard to ignore.

You weren't "parodying my self description", because that description was an illustration (of subjective narration), what you were doing was character assassination, and are now couching that under the title parody, and as something I (in double-bind fashion) "do not take well to".

khayyam wrote:
desultory wrote:
: your move, princess.

Well, you've pretty much forced me into a corner, shut up ... or

desultory wrote:
Where, exactly, did you get "shut up" from? I have repeatedly asked you to "tone down", not "shut up".

As I said, I'm inclined to see this as a result of ongoing criticism directed at (some) developers (and you seem to confirm that to some degree), I'm told I should treat developers similarly to how I treat users, or to "tone it down", and it is the substance of this (so, everything leading to it being a problem) that I'm taking as the substantive argument, and so if presented with "your move" its not too far a leap to see it as being told to shut up.

khayyam wrote:
No, they just happen to be developers, and I could probably cite counter-evidence in the form of developers posting here who I've never had so much as the slightest run in with.

desultory wrote:
You do realize that posting links to accounts of people that you have not interacted with at all is not evidence that you do not interact poorly with the group of users to which they belong when you do interact with them, right?

I've probably interacted with a good percentage of gentoo developers (since 2002), not all of it has been good, but not all of it has been bad. There are any number of ways this interaction might take place (some of which is passively reflecting on, what is written, or done, by them) and so I fail to see what evidence I need to provide to show that, no, I don't always "interact poorly".

khayyam wrote:
The fact that they are developers shouldn't matter,

desultory wrote:
Exactly my point.

A point which only stands if it is indeed the case that I'm merely criticising them because they are developers (something which the paragraph the above is snipped from is directed at).

khayyam wrote:
it is the arguments presented that I may take issue with, and for the most part I would consider my treatment of them to be critical, not aggressive

desultory wrote:
I am telling you that it does, often, appear to have crossed that line.

I would beg to differ, if only because of the numerous instances in which any criticism directed at them likely results in it being taken as a personal affront, and responded to with "are you happy now", or some form of runaround.

khayyam wrote:
(there is a difference between criticism and animosity).

desultory wrote:
<sarcasm>Do tell me more about this subject with which I am entirely unacquainted.</sarcasm>

<non-sarcasm>Had I wanted to say "you do know that there is a difference between criticism and animosity don't you?" I would have written that</non-sarcasm>

khayyam wrote:
I am similarly made to answer for my views, and not always in a way that I would regard as friendly, or fair, but then I'm a grown up princess and have to roll with it.

desultory wrote:
I have encountered exceedingly few who are sufficiently objective to consider it fair when someone else tells them that they have misbehaved, but at least you can roll with it.

All things considered, yes, but that doesn't preclude my taking exception to what is presented to me.

khayyam wrote:
Why would you think I need reminded in that regard, the digression was provided to show why I might seem to be in conflict with "developers", and what that conflict might consist of. I am, for the most part, "critical of policy" (or developers perception of it), but when the discussion shifts into these attempts at making me seem hateful, or other examples of the black arts (as it invariably does), then I'm going to call it for what it is.

desultory wrote:
That your behavior patterns strongly correlate posts that come off as aggressive with posts that are in reply to developers indicates that you do need to be reminded that not all developers are the select few that you consider to be boogeymen, wielding "black arts" against you. Even the ones that you do specifically consider to be "black arts" wielding boogeymen do not magically lose coverage under the guidelines because of their status as accused prose-mancers.

As you are still building this narrative, and as I'm clearly in the in wrong, can you anonymise my account, thanks.

khayyam wrote:
I have in the past reported far, far, worse violations of the guidelines, and nothing was done about it, I've also seen the "light hand" run ever so lightly across any number of discussions I've been involved with (to the extent that reporting such stuff would make me stand out as report happy ... and I've even been accused of this on one occasion). Because of this I now take it that where necessary (ie, on subjects I care about expressing my views) I'll fight my own corner, and by fight I mean argue, not beat my interlocutor to a pulp, or subsume their arguments with rhetorical tricks.

desultory wrote:
Rhetorical tricks like complaining that something does not do what it is not meant to do, or dismissing a suggestion by discarding the very idea of the mechanism in question being a valid interaction model?

Before I step into that particular tarpit, please explain exactly what you mean, providing references to "complaining", "something not doing what its meant to do", etc, etc.

khayyam wrote:
That is what I mean by "argue forcibly", and from here it seems I either do that, or go silent.

desultory wrote:
If all you do is "argue forcibly" or "go silent" then you are far more likely to cross lines without even noticing that you have, just something to consider while you busily dismiss even the suggestion of politesse.

That doesn't follow, and while I "busily dismiss" I may as well redact my prior taking under advisement, as there was obviously no point to it.

best ... khay
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Akkara
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just stopped by here after many long days staring at code. Didn't read most of this. Just wanted to suggest a pause. Do you realize the trivialities being argued about? Don't we all have kernels that need compiling? That's all.
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