Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
[SOLVED]EFI msg at boot:Reboot and Select proper boot device
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

 
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Installing Gentoo
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
gentusiast
n00b
n00b


Joined: 27 Oct 2016
Posts: 17
Location: France

PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:47 am    Post subject: [SOLVED]EFI msg at boot:Reboot and Select proper boot device Reply with quote

Hi Team,
I am new to Gentoo. Could you please help me to boot up my install ?
You kind help is much appreciated. :roll:

>HARDWARE
I have just installed Gentoo over my AMD64 (Celeron, Radeon PCIe, SSD, 8GB RAM).

>INSTALL OPTIONS
- efi (via Grub2 default method)
- systemd, utf8
- kernel manual configuration
- no dual boot, only Gentoo is installed

>PROBLEM
Install seemed ok. But when I boot, it does not come up. I get :
Code:
Reboot and Select proper boot device or Insert Boot Media (...)


>DOUBTS
Of course I have mounted /boot right before grub-install but have serious doubts on :
Code:
grub-install --target=x86_64-efi --efi-directory=/boot

Did it need to be
Code:
grub-install --target=x86_64-efi --efi-directory=/boot/efi
instead ? The same with /etc/fstab on efi boot partition on sda1. Did it have to be
Code:
/boot/efi
instead of my
Code:
/boot
?

Here are some elements I could take out :
Code:
Fdisk summary :
Device Size Type
/dev/sda1 256M EFI Sytem (type 1)          <====
/dev/sda2 20G Linux filesystem (type 15)
/dev/sda3 12G swap (type 14)
/dev/sda4 30G Linux home (type 20)

All formated as per manual apart from this command :
# mkfs.vfat -F 32 /dev/sda1


$ more /etc/fstab
/dev/sda1      /boot      vfat      noauto,noatime   1 2         <====
/dev/sda2      /      ext4      noatime      0 1
/dev/sda3      none      swap      sw      0 0
/dev/sda4      /home      ext4      noatime      0 2
/dev/cdrom      /mnt/cdrom   auto      noauto,ro   0 0


$ ls /boot                                                 <==== I was expecting some kind of EFI subdirectory here ...
abi-4.8.0-22-generic     grub            memtest86+.elf            System.map-4.8.0-22-generic
config-4.8.0-22-generic  memtest86+.bin  memtest86+_multiboot.bin
$ ls /boot/grub/
gfxblacklist.txt  grubenv  unicode.pf2


$ more /etc/hosts
(...)
# IPv4 and IPv6 localhost aliases
127.0.0.1   localhost
192.168.1.2   mypc
::1      localhost


$ lspci
00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation 2nd Generation Core Processor Family DRAM Controller (rev 09)
00:01.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation Xeon E3-1200/2nd Generation Core Processor Family PCI Express Root Port (rev 09)
00:16.0 Communication controller: Intel Corporation 7 Series/C210 Series Chipset Family MEI Controller #1 (rev 04)
00:1a.0 USB controller: Intel Corporation 7 Series/C210 Series Chipset Family USB Enhanced Host Controller #2 (rev 04)
00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 7 Series/C210 Series Chipset Family High Definition Audio Controller (rev 04)
00:1c.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 7 Series/C210 Series Chipset Family PCI Express Root Port 1 (rev c4)
00:1c.2 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 7 Series/C210 Series Chipset Family PCI Express Root Port 3 (rev c4)
00:1c.3 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801 Mobile PCI Bridge (rev c4)
00:1d.0 USB controller: Intel Corporation 7 Series/C210 Series Chipset Family USB Enhanced Host Controller #1 (rev 04)
00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation 7 Series Chipset Family LPC Controller (rev 04)
00:1f.2 SATA controller: Intel Corporation 7 Series Chipset Family 6-port SATA Controller [AHCI mode] (rev 04)
00:1f.3 SMBus: Intel Corporation 7 Series/C210 Series Chipset Family SMBus Controller (rev 04)
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Caicos [Radeon HD 6450/7450/8450 / R5 230 OEM]
01:00.1 Audio device: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Caicos HDMI Audio [Radeon HD 6400 Series]
03:00.0 Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8111/8168/8411 PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet Controller (rev 06)
04:00.0 PCI bridge: ASMedia Technology Inc. ASM1083/1085 PCIe to PCI Bridge (rev 03)

_________________
Regards,
Gentusiast


Last edited by gentusiast on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:45 pm; edited 4 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Roman_Gruber
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 3806
Location: Austro Bavaria

PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Reboot and Select proper boot device or Insert Boot Media (...)


Usually this implies that your BIOS / UEFI do not load your bootloader

Could be

You did not enable the drive as bootable device in your bios. The bios is not correctly linked and installed to your bootloader for whatever reasons.

What kind of SSD is the SSD ? 2.5" SATA ? or problematic NVME or what they are called?
Is the hardware correctly installed?


--

Fastest way: My lazy approach ... Install a binary distro, reuse the bootlaoder and hack = create a bootentry for that binary distro bootloader. Reuse the partitions.

--

Usually.

Install disc in the device (HDD / SDD...)
Set that disc as bootable
Create partitions. Correct file system layout according to the gentoo handbook.
Correct bootloader files according to the handbook
map bootloader to the bios with the supplied bootloader scripts / tools => these days called grub-install

--

Additional I check if those created boot loader entries make sense, point to the correct partition, correct kernel parameters

--

Create kernel with genkernel (quick), or make it manually ...
Read out needed kernel modules again from a binary distro / linux live-dvd. => build a kernel with those needed modules
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gentusiast
n00b
n00b


Joined: 27 Oct 2016
Posts: 17
Location: France

PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Roman,
Thanks for your answer.

>What kind of SSD is the SSD ?
2.5" SATA (quite common samsung 840 series), not NVM like Phil_r

>Is the hardware correctly installed?
Yes, perfectly. I am able to install other OS on this hardware.
Since your message, I have ran BIOS default values (to make sure it does not come from BIOS values) and booted directly on my SATA ssd.
It is the same issue.

That's why I have more doubts on my GRUB and /boot/efi ... When setting this all up I googled to several forums and we see people using :
Code:
grub-install --target=x86_64-efi --efi-directory=/boot

other times
Code:
grub-install --target=x86_64-efi --efi-directory=/boot/efi


The same for fstab, some use :
Code:
/dev/sda1      /boot      vfat      noauto,noatime   1 2 

other use :
Code:
/dev/sda1      /boot/efi     vfat      noauto,noatime   1 2 

and I even do not mention the other parameters vfat vs fat32 and 0 1 2 flags ...
_________________
Regards,
Gentusiast
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DONAHUE
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 7458
Location: Goose Creek SC

PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your command, grub-install --target=x86_64-efi --efi-directory=/boot, apparently failed.
ls /boot does not show an EFI sub-directory (the grub-install --target=x86_64-efi --efi-directory=/boot command creates it)
Recursively, EFI structure should be:
ls -R /boot
/boot:
EFI
/boot/EFI:
gentoo
/boot/EFI/gentoo:
grubx64.efi

Suspect the boot partition was not mounted when grub-install was run since you report no error message after the command was executed.

Boot a UEFI capable livecd/usb such as system rescue cd/usb in uefi mode, mount the gentoo partitions at /mnt/gentoo, enter the chroot,use https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/GRUB2 watch for error messages and check ls -R /boot after.
_________________
Defund the FCC.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gentusiast
n00b
n00b


Joined: 27 Oct 2016
Posts: 17
Location: France

PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,
Thanks DONAHUE for your feedback :

I found an issue in :
/etc/portage/make.conf
I had :
Code:
#old one
#GRUB_PLATFORMS=efi-64
#corrected one I have fixed
GRUB_PLATFORMS="efi-64"


so I chrooted and performed :
Code:
root #emerge --ask --newuse --deep sys-boot/grub:2

but it complained about some '/dev' issues ... this ranged a bell !!
I exited and mounted the remaining stuffs from the general install guide :
Code:
(chroot)# exit
#mount -t proc proc /mnt/gentoo/proc
#mount --rbind /sys /mnt/gentoo/sys
#mount --make-rslave /mnt/gentoo/sys
#mount --rbind /dev /mnt/gentoo/dev
#mount --make-rslave /mnt/gentoo/dev

Since I have systemd I put them all as mentioned in the install guide.

Connected back in chroot and resumed the GRUB2 process :
Code:
(chroot)# emerge --ask --newuse --deep sys-boot/grub:2


This time the command was ok and "no outdated packages were found on your system"

But now I hit a new issue :roll:
Code:
(chroot)# mount -l | grep boot
/dev/sda1 on /boot type vfat (rw,noatime)

(chroot)# grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg
/usr/sbin/grub-mkconfig: line 235: /boot/grub/grub.cfg.new : no such file or directory


Do you have an idea of what it could be ?
Seems wrc1944 had a similar error message long long time ago but since I do not understand it all in his post :idea: here
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-970478-start-0.html, I prefer ask for your opinion please.
Thank you.
_________________
Regards,
Gentusiast
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DONAHUE
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 7458
Location: Goose Creek SC

PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't specifically mention repeating the running of
grub-install --target=x86_64-efi --efi-directory=/boot
I probably caused you a problem by referring you to the wiki which differs from the handbook (the reason for some using --efi-directory=/boot and others using --efi-directory=/boot/efi.) I just noticed that the wiki presents the command
grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg
before presenting any variety of the command
grub-install

So anyway:
Boot a UEFI capable livecd/usb such as system rescue cd/usb in uefi mode
mount the gentoo partitions at /mnt/gentoo
enter the chroot
run
Code:
emerge wgetpaste
grub-install --target=x86_64-efi --efi-directory=/boot
ls -R /boot | wgetpaste -t
grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg
wgetpaste -t /boot/grub/grub.cfg

post the url's returned by wgetpaste for review by the peanut gallery
_________________
Defund the FCC.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gentusiast
n00b
n00b


Joined: 27 Oct 2016
Posts: 17
Location: France

PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi DONAHUE,

Sorry I forgot to mention that : yes I DID run this command, it is my history (I am still connected) :
Code:
grub-install --target=x86_64-efi --efi-directory=/boot


Quote:
I probably caused you a problem by referring you to the wiki which differs from the handbook (the reason for some using --efi-directory=/boot and others using --efi-directory=/boot/efi.)

Don't worry, it is so nice to get interested in my issue and in this case, my data are already in a remote safe place. So feel free :)

One question please :
Shall I apply your action plan directly or is it cleaner to boot and mount it all again ?

Thank you.
_________________
Regards,
Gentusiast
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DONAHUE
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 7458
Location: Goose Creek SC

PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

either way
_________________
Defund the FCC.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gentusiast
n00b
n00b


Joined: 27 Oct 2016
Posts: 17
Location: France

PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here you are :

Code:
# emerge wgetpaste
successful

# grub-install --target=x86_64-efi --efi-directory=/boot
Installing for x86_64-efi platform.
grub-install: error: /boot doesn't look like an EFI partition.

# fdisk -l /dev/sda
p
Device  Start  End  Sectors  Size  Type
/dev/sda1 2048 526335 524288 256M EFI system

# ls -R /boot | wgetpaste -t
/boot:
config-4.4.26-gentoo
grub
System.map-4.4.26-gentoo
vmlinuz-4.4.26-gentoo

/boot/grub:

Your paste can be seen here:
https://paste.pound-python.org/show/fBuIXeWhNIG15DbqTPGG/

Code:
# grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg
Generating grub configration file...
Found a linux image: /boot/vmlinuz-4.4.26-gentoo
done

# wgetpaste -t /boot/grub/grub.cfg
(...processing...)
Your paste can be seen here:
https://paste.pound-python.org/show/7ZYdumnOerxxEuh42lTy/
_________________
Regards,
Gentusiast
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DONAHUE
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 7458
Location: Goose Creek SC

PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
grub-install: error: /boot doesn't look like an EFI partition.
defines our problem
most likely cause: boot partition is not mounted on /boot directory; other possibilities include file system errors or /dev/sda1 being seen as some other name
Boot a UEFI capable livecd/usb such as system rescue cd/usb in uefi mode
mount only the gentoo root partition at /mnt/gentoo
run
Code:
ls /mnt/gentoo/boot | wgetpaste -t
If files are shown in the output then at some point the boot partition was not mounted at /boot while operations were performed that wrote to /boot. If files are shown in /mnt/gentoo/boot while the boot partition is not mounted you will probably want to back them up particularly if your kernel is among them; suggest
Code:
mkdir /mnt/gentoo/bkup
mv /mnt/gentoo/boot/* /mnt/gentoo/bkup
Then enter the chroot and run
Code:
mount /dev/sda1 /boot
mount | wgetpaste -t # should show /dev/sda1 /boot vfat possibly with extra options
ls -l /boot | wgetpaste -t # should show kernel, grub, etc
# if not, restore the backup files from /bkup: mv  /bkup/* /boot
grub-install --target=x86_64-efi --efi-directory=/boot | wgetpaste -t
ls -R /boot | wgetpaste -t
grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg
wgetpaste -t /boot/grub/grub.cfg


post the url's returned by wgetpaste for review by the peanut gallery
_________________
Defund the FCC.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
324874
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 26 Jul 2014
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DONAHUE, you repeated the same instructions! :twisted:

gentusiast wrote:
Is it /boot/efi or /boot?

@gentusiast: The answer is:
  1. You know the directory structure of the ESP (EFI System Partition) and you know where to put files: /boot
  2. You don't know this directory structure: /boot/efi

Note: /boot and /boot/efi are used as mount points.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Roman_Gruber
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 3806
Location: Austro Bavaria

PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

feng wrote:
DONAHUE, you repeated the same instructions! :twisted:

gentusiast wrote:
Is it /boot/efi or /boot?

@gentusiast: The answer is:
  1. You know the directory structure of the ESP (EFI System Partition) and you know where to put files: /boot
  2. You don't know this directory structure: /boot/efi

Note: /boot and /boot/efi are used as mount points.


Usually what I do

use a bootable linux live iso. Sysrescue / linux mint whatever

mv /boot directory to something like

mv /boot /boot_live_cd

becasue /boot contains contents of the livecd. causes issues

mkdir /boot

mount /dev/sdXY /boot

ls /boot and verify if boot really is mounted and contains what boot should contain. also use mount command

mkdir /mnt/gentoo

mount root to /mnt/gentoo

regarding

/boot/efi

and your example of grub-install

go to your /boot directory, use ls, and check the contents of teh directory and how the EFI directory is written

Code:
ls /boot/EFI
EFI  gentoo


This is my example. I use grub from a linux mint livecd. I think the directory is called different wtih different distros and grub versions. Also note the uppercase EFI in my case.

Best way is to check yourself how the directory is named in your /boot and adapt the grub-install command

--

Whenever my UEFI forgets the connection UEFI - GRUB bootloader i have to mount the partition and than enter this command:

Quote:
mount boot

Code:
grub2-install --efi-directory=/boot/EFI

This command only works with the same ISO from the grub installation. Grub is not compatilbe with other version of grub. Other livecds refused to work with my grub from my installation.

The guides are also very different regarding installing grub2-install. or grub-install. I think it depends on the grub version in use, as there are several different version of grub available.

--

I hope this post is useful to you, give you a bit more insight.

Quote:
Note: /boot and /boot/efi are used as mount points.


No, I do not agree

These are directories

You may use directories to mount devices (includes partitions)

Code:
mount|grep boot
/dev/sda2 on /boot type vfat (rw,noatime,fmask=0022,dmask=0022,codepage=437,iocharset=iso8859-1,shortname=mixed,errors=remount-ro)
ASUS-G75VW boot # ls -alh /boot/EFI
total 22K
drwxr-xr-x 4 root root 2,0K Nov 11  2015 .
drwxr-xr-x 9 root root  16K Jan  1  1970 ..
drwxr-xr-x 5 root root 2,0K Sep 12 02:01 EFI
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 2,0K Okt  7  2015 gentoo
ASUS-G75VW boot # ls -alh /
total 92K
drwxr-xr-x  21 root root 4,0K Sep 17 23:20 .
drwxr-xr-x  21 root root 4,0K Sep 17 23:20 ..
drwxr-xr-x   2 root root 4,0K Okt 21 10:08 bin
drwxr-xr-x   9 root root  16K Jan  1  1970 boot
drwxr-xr-x  18 root root 4,3K Okt 28 20:58 dev
....


Only mount command gives an overview what is mounted as of now on that box.
drwxr-xr-x => d ... its a directory, thats it

That EFI directory is just a directory where the grub (grub generic for any grub version) bootloader just stores a few files which are than mapped and used by the grub-install (or grub2-install) command. Vaguely expressed => "Just a generic config / binary directory"

/boot may be used as a mountpoint, but I am quite sure installations on uefi still supports only mounting /.
The configuration of a separate boot is just a special case of many ways on how to install a gnu - linux
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DONAHUE
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 7458
Location: Goose Creek SC

PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@feng DONAHUE, you repeated the same instructions!
No, not the same. The differences were apparently too subtle for the casual reader.
Actually the mountpoint will be /boot/efi if https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/GRUB2 is followed or just /boot if https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/Bootloader is followed.
mountpoints are directories.
_________________
Defund the FCC.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gentusiast
n00b
n00b


Joined: 27 Oct 2016
Posts: 17
Location: France

PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,
I decided to double check and I just saw that despite my motherboard is UEFI (and my previous distro had been installed clearly with EFI) ... I just cannot boot onto the gentoo media in UEFI mode !!

There is no "UEFI cdrom boot option" resent here AND USB key with the Gentoo iso does not boot when I select the "UEFI" mode ... it returns :
    Reboot or select proper boot device or insert boot media. Missing operating system.


I admit I have not read the first chapters of the Install guide yet ... just created the iso with Unetbootin and engraved the CD ...

Btw, I will be OOTO for a week and will resume work from 6 or 7 November.

Again many thanks for your feedback.
Regards.
_________________
Regards,
Gentusiast
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DONAHUE
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 7458
Location: Goose Creek SC

PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The gentoo minimal install cd does not support uefi.
Gentoo based system rescue cd or usb does.
https://www.system-rescue-cd.org/Download
or
https://www.system-rescue-cd.org/Sysresccd-manual-en_How_to_install_SystemRescueCd_on_an_USB-stick
_________________
Defund the FCC.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
324874
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 26 Jul 2014
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Roman_Gruber: I know how to mount a filesystem. I don't need an explanation. My previous affirmation about mount points is correct in the context.
I could have said: "/boot/efi, /boot or any directory you want, may be used as a mount point".

Roman_Gruber wrote:
/boot may be used as a mountpoint, but I am quite sure installations on uefi still supports only mounting /

A mount point is a location in the file system giving access to a root file system located on another partition. The UEFI specification only defines the directory structure of the ESP.

Roman_Gruber wrote:
This command only works with the same ISO from the grub installation. Grub is not compatilbe with other version of grub. Other livecds refused to work with my grub from my installation.

Roman_Gruber:
root #  mv /boot /boot_live_cd
root #  mkdir /boot
root #  mount /dev/sdXY /boot
root #  mkdir /mnt/gentoo

The above operations aren't suitable (see the handbook). The mount point is "located on" the LiveCD and it should be "located", for example, on a hard drive (in your Gentoo environment).

Roman_Gruber:
root #  mount /dev/sdXY /boot         # /dev/sdXY is the EFI System Partition (ESP)

Roman_Gruber:
ASUS-G75VW boot # ls -alh /boot/EFI
total 22K
drwxr-xr-x 4 root root 2,0K Nov 11  2015 .
drwxr-xr-x 9 root root  16K Jan  1  1970 ..
drwxr-xr-x 5 root root 2,0K Sep 12 02:01 EFI
drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 2,0K Okt  7  2015 gentoo

I see clearly that you haven't understood the notion of mount point.

Best regards, feng.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hu
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 12359

PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moderator note: a subthread between feng and Roman_Gruber discussing conversation styles and some of the finer points of UEFI was split to a separate thread, to keep this thread clear for the original issue. That thread is Roman_Gruber, feng: UEFI, mountpoints in the Gentoo Forums Feedback forum.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
gentusiast
n00b
n00b


Joined: 27 Oct 2016
Posts: 17
Location: France

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,
I have reinstalled from scratch using the hybrid DVD, instead of the minimal CD.
This time it worked fine.
Before to actually run the grub-install command, I did a :
Code:
cd /boot
df -h .

so I make sure I was on the dedicates vfat partition and not on "another" /boot

Thank you for your kind assistance.

N.B : It still does not boot up yet but at least I see the EFI entry in my bios "Gentoo GNU/Linux"). I will work it and open a separate thread if necessary.
But we can mark the case as solved and the fix was "use DVD not CD when installing EFI".
_________________
Regards,
Gentusiast
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Installing Gentoo All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum