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shm
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 Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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heh.. now we've jinxed both gentoo and kde and thus JXTA will win 
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slon
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 1:41 am Post subject: |
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And I would like to reiterate that credibility of these nominations is questionable. Evangelion while calling me stupid
| Quote: | | I would guess the problem is between the chair and the keyboard |
which is very typical, still agrees that KDE 3.2 is beta and can be unstable and/or unreliable. And my personal opinion aside there is a very impressive list of bugs that KDE (and Gentoo for that matter) suffers from. I would guess those are objective and don't have any agenda. It seems that OSS community has very high tolerance for such apps as long as they carry whateverGPL kind of license. |
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Plain-old-Jeb
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 6:15 am Post subject: |
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Go Gentoo!!!
However as much as I would like to see Gentoo win it would seem JXTA and Helix are just there to fill space and it wouldn't be hard to say the same for Gentoo, I think the fact that KDE is nominated but not GNOME or any other window manager is evidence enought that the Judges are fairly biased towards KDE  .
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Evangelion
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Joined: 31 May 2002
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| lurid wrote: | | Evangelion wrote: | | I haven't had any problems with it, so I would guess the problem is between the chair and the keyboard. |
What an ignorant thing to say. The reason there are public betas are because everyone has different hardware and different combinations of hardware that a few in house testers can't compensate for unless those people actually use and crash their software. Just because it works and it stable for you doesn't mean it must be so for everyone else. |
I didn't say that it was, I merely stated the fact that majority of KDE-users don't have problems with it, and just because we here have one person who is unhappy with it, doesn't mean that it sucks. Let's continue for a while shall we?
There are people out there who can't run Linux, because it refuses to install, it doesn't do what they need it to do etc. etc. So clearly Linux must suck! Flagship of the Open-Source community? HAH! A steaming pile of shit it is!
Some people can't install Gentoo. It just dies on them or fails due to some other error. So clearly Gentoo sucks as well! I can't understand how Gentoo can be nominated for this award, since I can clearly remember seeing posts in these forums where people complained about the shortcoming of Gentoo, failed installations etc. etc.
See what I mean?
| Quote: | | Yeah, and there are MILLIONS of Windows users who don't have a problem with the software either. That doesn't mean its good. |
This may come as a shock to you, but most Windows-users are perfectly happy with the OS.
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Evangelion
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| slon wrote: | And I would like to reiterate that credibility of these nominations is questionable. Evangelion while calling me stupid
| Quote: | | I would guess the problem is between the chair and the keyboard |
which is very typical, still agrees that KDE 3.2 is beta and can be unstable and/or unreliable. |
Which is why it's still in Beta. And to my knowledge, KDE3.2 is not the product that has been nominated, but KDE as a whole. Just because their BETA-software has some bugs does not mean that due to that, the project as a whole must suck.
Linux Kernel version 2.5.14 was really unstable for me, so clearly Linux must suck!
| Quote: | | And my personal opinion aside there is a very impressive list of bugs that KDE (and Gentoo for that matter) suffers from. |
And to my knowledge, Mozilla has a bug-lists that's tens of thousands long.
| Quote: | | I would guess those are objective and don't have any agenda. It seems that OSS community has very high tolerance for such apps as long as they carry whateverGPL kind of license. |
Show me a bugless piece of software.
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Naughtyus
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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Hello world hasn't crashed on me in ages! |
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georwell
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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first of all..... GO GENTOO!
second....
| Quote: | | I think the fact that KDE is nominated but not GNOME or any other window manager is evidence enought that the Judges are fairly biased towards KDE |
Why? Is the gnome project the default desktop install for any other distribution besides redhat (Now enterprise only)? It seems to me that alone makes KDE pretty darn sucessful, not to mention Lindows runs it as well. Not to mention all the other stuff KDE does well.
Using your logic, Since debian isn't available we can assume that the Judges are biased towards Gentoo and it has nothing to do with portage, the community, optimizations, tons of up-to-date apps, etc... It has to be bias because they didn't choose debian and everyone knows that debian is SO much better gentoo. |
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ebrostig
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Slon, I take it you have file a bug at bugs.kde.org and uploaded the tracfiles generated. You know, just as well as I do, that doing so is the only way to get the bugs fixed.
Could you post the bug number and I'll take a look at it and see if I can reproduce in the CVS builds?
Erik
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slon
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Slon, I take it you have file a bug |
No I didn't. My personal experience shows that nobody cares.
Example: kfind has a bug that has been filed and refiled many times. This bug has been tagging along for years now from one release to another and affected many disttributions and many versions of distributions.
Bug has todo with searching for text string. I was able to reproduce it on RedHat, SUSE, Mandrake, Gentoo and Knoppix. As root and as regular user. Last time I checked resolution of this bug was "Works here". Guy just doesn't want to fix it. What are you gonna do?
Just in general I'd like to point out that in linux world people are being praised for efforts and not for results. Things like " It didn't work for me, but keep up a good work" (paraphrasing from GLIS thread, page 2 or 3) are very common. How does one arrive to this conclusion? I'd really like to witness the thought proccess.
Let's translate it into the real world: I work on my version of perpetuum mobile although it doesn't work yet, but I have been nominated for Nobel Prize..... Really?
Evangelion here is something for you
| Quote: | | And to my knowledge, KDE3.2 is not the product that has been nominated, but KDE as a whole. |
Best Open Source Project
Gentoo: Gentoo Linux
KDE: KDE 3.2
RealNetworks, Inc.: The Helix Player Project in the Helix Community
Sun Microsystems: JXTA Technology
Correct your "knowledge"
Here is another one
bash-2.05b$ who
g00fy :0 Jan 20 13:59
bash-2.05b$ ls /tmp/kde-g00fy/*crash*
/tmp/kde-g00fy/konqueror-crash-BO9HCb.log
bash-2.05b$ ls -al /tmp/kde-g00fy/*crash*
-rw------- 1 g00fy users 902 Jan 20 15:42 /tmp/kde-g00fy/konqueror -crash-BO9HCb.log
Well, not bad, not bad at all... Held out for almost two hours. Nice
Evangelion let me ask you something: How did you get that "Veteran" thingy?
Last edited by slon on Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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shm
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| slon wrote: | | Example: kfind has a bug that has been filed and refiled many times. This bug has been tagging along for years now from one release to another and affected many disttributions and many versions of distributions. |
What's the bugzilla bug number? I can reopen the bug if I can reproduce it.
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slon
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:27 am Post subject: |
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Gentoo Bug #31961
KDE Bug #59438 |
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shm
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| slon wrote: | | KDE Bug #59438 |
hmm.. I can't reproduce it (KDE 3.2 RC1)..
What KDE version are you running?
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slon
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | hmm.. I can't reproduce it (KDE 3.2 RC1).. |
I just did. It killed my X.
bash-2.05b$ emerge info
Portage 2.0.49-r20 (default-x86-1.4, gcc-3.2.3, glibc-2.3.2-r3, 2.4.22-ck2)
=================================================================
System uname: 2.4.22-ck2 i686 AMD Athlon(tm) XP 1700+
Gentoo Base System version 1.4.3.10p1
distcc 2.11.1 i686-pc-linux-gnu (protocols 1 and 2) (default port 3632) [enabled ]
ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="x86"
AUTOCLEAN="yes"
CFLAGS="-O3 -march=athlon-xp -pipe -fomit-frame-pointer -ffast-math -funroll-loo ps -msse -mfpmath=sse,387 "
CHOST="i686-pc-linux-gnu"
COMPILER="gcc3"
CONFIG_PROTECT="/etc /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/xkb /usr/kde/2/share/config /usr/kde/3.1 /share/config /usr/kde/3/share/config /usr/share/config /usr/share/texmf/tex/gen eric/config/ /usr/share/texmf/tex/platex/config/ /var/qmail/control"
CONFIG_PROTECT_MASK="/etc/gconf /etc/env.d"
CXXFLAGS="-O3 -march=athlon-xp -pipe -fomit-frame-pointer -ffast-math -funroll-l oops -msse -mfpmath=sse,387 "
DISTDIR="/usr/portage/distfiles"
FEATURES="autoaddcvs buildpkg distcc sandbox"
GENTOO_MIRRORS="ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/linux/distributions/gentoo http://gent oo.oregonstate.edu ftp://mirror.iawnet.sandia.gov/pub/gentoo http://distro.ibib lio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/gentoo"
MAKEOPTS="-j5"
PKGDIR="/usr/portage/packages"
PORTAGE_TMPDIR="/var/tmp"
PORTDIR="/usr/portage"
PORTDIR_OVERLAY=""
SYNC="rsync://rsync.gentoo.org/gentoo-portage"
USE="3dnow X X509 Xaw3d aalib acl acpi acpi4linux alsa apm arts avi berkdb bindi st bonobo cdr cups curl dga directfb dv dvd encode esd ethereal faad fbcon ffmpe g flac foomaticdb gd gdbm ggi gif gnome gphoto2 gpm gstreamer gtk gtk2 gtkhtml i map imlib java javascript jdepend jikes jpeg kde kerberos lcms libg++ libwww lir c ltsp mad matroska mmx motif mpeg mpi mysql nas ncurses nls nvidia odbc oggvorb is opengl oss pam pdflib perl png ppds python qt quicktime readline samba sasl s canner sdl slang slp snmp sox spell sse ssl svga tcpd tetex tiff transcode truet ype usb v4l x86 xine xinerama xml2 xmms xosd xv xvid zlib"
bash-2.05b$ ls -al /tmp/kde-g00fy/*crash*
-rw------- 1 g00fy users 650 Jan 20 18:04 /tmp/kde-g00fy/konqueror-crash-8tXSHa.log
bash-2.05b$ cat /tmp/kde-g00fy/konqueror-crash-8tXSHa.log
closed(559cba3e):
opened(559cba3e):file:/home/g00fy
closed(559cba3e):file:/home/g00fy
opened(559cba3e):file:/usr
closed(2a5cf70c):
opened(2a5cf70c):file:/usr
closed(559cba3e):file:/usr
opened(559cba3e):file:/tmp
closed(2a5cf70c):
opened(2a5cf70c):file:/tmp
closed(2a5cf70c):
opened(2a5cf70c):file:/tmp/kde-g00fy
closed(559cba3e):file:/tmp
opened(559cba3e):file:/tmp/kde-g00fy
closed(2a5cf70c):
opened(2a5cf70c):file:/tmp/kde-g00fy/konqueror-crash-BO9HCb.log
closed(559cba3e):
opened(559cba3e):file:/tmp/kde-g00fy/konqueror-crash-BO9HCb.log
closed(2a5cf70c):
opened(2a5cf70c):file:/tmp/kde-g00fy
closed(559cba3e):
opened(559cba3e):file:/tmp/kde-g00fy
closed(2a5cf70c):
opened(2a5cf70c):file:/tmp/kde-g00fy/konqueror-crash-8tXSHa.log
closed(559cba3e):
opened(559cba3e):file:/tmp/kde-g00fy/konqueror-crash-8tXSHa.log
bash-2.05b# lspci
00:00.0 Host bridge: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] 735 Host (rev 01)
00:01.0 PCI bridge: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] SiS 530 Virtual PCI-to-PCI bridge (AGP)
00:02.0 ISA bridge: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] 85C503/5513
00:02.2 USB Controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] USB 1.0 Controller (rev 07)
00:02.3 USB Controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] USB 1.0 Controller (rev 07)
00:02.5 IDE interface: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] 5513 [IDE] (rev d0)
00:02.7 Multimedia audio controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] Sound Controller (rev a0)
00:03.0 Ethernet controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] SiS900 10/100 Ethernet (rev 90)
00:0b.0 SCSI storage controller: Adaptec AHA-2940U2/U2W
00:0d.0 FireWire (IEEE 1394): VIA Technologies, Inc. IEEE 1394 Host Controller (rev 46)
00:11.0 Multimedia video controller: Brooktree Corporation Bt878 Video Capture (rev 11)
00:11.1 Multimedia controller: Brooktree Corporation Bt878 Audio Capture (rev 11)
00:13.0 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. USB (rev 50)
00:13.1 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. USB (rev 50)
00:13.2 USB Controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. USB 2.0 (rev 51)
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation NV15 [GeForce2 GTS/Pro] (rev a3)
simultaneously on another machine running knoppix 3.3 november release ten minutes into the search interface is not responsive at all. If covered by another window does not redraw. CD is still spinning like crazy. But no evidence of crash yet. |
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slon
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:48 am Post subject: |
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Update: on Knoppix machine CD stopped spinning. CPU is 97% idle
kfind has 0.7% of %CPU (PIII-750) and 11% of 384MB RAM and growing 11.2% now.
kfind window did not restore its' interface. So after what... 20 minutes even if nothing crashes I think it's safe to conclude that this particular app is crappy. |
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shm
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:54 am Post subject: |
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Looks like the bug only exists in kde 3.1.x; it must have been fixed early on in kde 3.2 development (before june anyways). I suppose the fix was not merged back into the older branch. This is often the case, since there simply aren't enough developers using older versions of KDE (however, enough are there at minor versions of kde 3.1.x came out)
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slon
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I suppose the fix was not merged back into the older branch. |
So fallen soldier left behind.
Don't you think it's irresponsible to rush to new version number like this: " We know there is a bug and we are not gonna fix it in this version, better luck next time." I think I heard it somewhere before.
....\..W.... Wi..Win..... Wind....Ahh! It escapes my memory. Wind-something. ..I think... |
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Evangelion
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Joined: 31 May 2002
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Location: Helsinki, Finland
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| slon wrote: | | Quote: | | I suppose the fix was not merged back into the older branch. |
So fallen soldier left behind.
Don't you think it's irresponsible to rush to new version number like this: " We know there is a bug and we are not gonna fix it in this version, better luck next time." I think I heard it somewhere before.
....\..W.... Wi..Win..... Wind....Ahh! It escapes my memory. Wind-something. ..I think... |
Hardly a fair comparison. In Windows, you have to PAY in order to upgrade to next version. In KDE, you get it for free. Do you have any good reason NOT to upgrade to KDE3.2 once it's released? Also, have you tried to upgrade to KDE3.1.5 to see that has it been fixed?
Seriously, if the bug has been fixed in 3.2 (or 3.1.5), then what's the problem? A bug is found in software. They fix it in the next version of the software. What's wrong with that? That's how they do it in ALL software (Kernel, GNOME etc. etc.). Or do you assume that they should backport all the fixes to all the past version of their software? So those who (for some reason or another) don't want to upgrade, can apply individual patches to their software?
FWIW: I haven't been able to reproduce your bug. If something as fundamental as searching was broken, don't you think there would be lots and lots of people complaining about it? But that doesn't seem to be the case, why?
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slon
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| Something tells me you already have the answer for that one. |
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shm
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| slon wrote: | | Quote: | | I suppose the fix was not merged back into the older branch. |
So fallen soldier left behind. |
It's not that nobody wants to fix it in the older branches, but there simply isn't enough developers running older versions to fix it.
This happens with almost all open source software that operate with two branches (i.e, Mozilla, OpenOffice, GNOME, the Linux Kernel, etc..). Do you really expect, for example, that all bugfixes in linux 2.6.0 will get backported to linux 2.4.x? As many bugs get backported as possible, but like KDE, most development thought occurs in the 2.6 branch rather than the 2.4.x branch.
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dr_mox
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Joined: 22 Dec 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:55 pm Post subject: and the winner is.... |
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RealNetworks won 
Moxy x
<edit>
Here's the link if you want to see all the results:
linuxworldexpo.com results
</edit>
Last edited by dr_mox on Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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slon
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Congratulations! |
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slon
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Do you really expect, for example, that all bugfixes in linux 2.6.0 will get backported to linux 2.4.x |
Well.. I do. Not with kernel. They seem to have sane roadmap. But KDE is just racing through releases. People show their loyalty to KDE and expect same in return. I know it's not realistic but would stand to reason. It would be expensive for a business to keep up with this upgrade schedule. And I don't think regular desktop users(I'm not talking about technojunkies) would like it either. To avoid bugs they are forced to upgrade. I think I've seen KDE 3.1.9x. If I'm not mistaken there are some minor changes to the interface and people will have to adapt and change their habbits again. How many times we've gone through it this year?
Taking this into account slogan "With linux you are in control" doesn't withstand the scrutiny. |
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cerebrum86
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Joined: 19 Jan 2004
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 12:55 am Post subject: Re: and the winner is.... |
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| dr_mox wrote: | RealNetworks won
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This is pathetic. A company that is responsible for RealOne won a Linux Excellence Award.....plus, it's not even MENTIONED as news on http://www.helixcommunity.org/ Note that they are a minor sponsor of the Expo, so methinks a foul sardine has escaped the mighty grasp of the Penguin....
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Evangelion
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Posts: 1087
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| slon wrote: | | Quote: | | Do you really expect, for example, that all bugfixes in linux 2.6.0 will get backported to linux 2.4.x |
Well.. I do. Not with kernel. They seem to have sane roadmap. But KDE is just racing through releases. People show their loyalty to KDE and expect same in return. I know it's not realistic but would stand to reason. It would be expensive for a business to keep up with this upgrade schedule. And I don't think regular desktop users(I'm not talking about technojunkies) would like it either. To avoid bugs they are forced to upgrade. I think I've seen KDE 3.1.9x. If I'm not mistaken there are some minor changes to the interface and people will have to adapt and change their habbits again. How many times we've gone through it this year?
Taking this into account slogan "With linux you are in control" doesn't withstand the scrutiny. |
You are just talking out of you ass. It's not realistic to expect them to backport everything. First of all, it might not be possible. Second, it would take too much time which would slow down rest of the developement. And how far back should they backport? KDE2? Why should they waste their time backporting when the users could just simply upgrade to the new version? In case you didn't notice this before, ALL SOFTWARE get's new version all the time" So it's not something KDE-folks made up! GNOME releases new version all the time, Xfree releases new version all the time, Mozilla releases new versions all the time. etc. etc.
So here we have group of volunteers giving us kick-ass software for free. And what do you do? Whine that "No! You are not doing enough! Do more!". They have no obligation to satisfy your every whim. They do this because they like doing it. They give it to you for free.
Seriously, I'm sick and tired of listening people whine, when they receive world-class software for free, yet they keep on whining that "Damn the developers suck! They should do more and give me more free stuff!". Can you say "spoiled brat"?. If KDE sucks so much, start your own damn desktop-project.
KDE's UI has been pretty damn stable for a long time. KDE 3.1 is not that different from KDE2.2 for example. If you know previous version of KDE, I would say you shouldn't have ANY problems moving from one version to the next. Hell, moving from Windows2000 to Windows XP is more difficult than moving from one KDE to the other.
KDE3.1.9x is the pre-release of KDE3.2. I believe Beta1 and Beta2 were something like 3.1.94 and 3.1.96. So what's the problem? It's not like they are inflating the version-numbers. Hell, why don't you whine when stable GNOME-releases only use even numbers? We had 2.0, then 2.2, then 2.4 etc. With KDE we have 3.0, 3.1, 3.2.
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masseya
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Joined: 17 Apr 2002
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Location: Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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Everyone please calm down. Let's not be insulting or condescending. This is the first, last, and only warning for this thread.
BTW: KDE won an award for Best Development Tools.
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