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IncredibleMrT
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:40 am    Post subject: KDE SC 4 vs PLASMA Reply with quote

Hi,
Forgive me if this is a stupid question.
Just setting up a new machine - have a few others all running KDE4 quite happily, but i'm wondering about KDE5/Plasma.

I'm trying to run as stable as I can as it's my main work machine.

How likely am I to have major issues using KDE5/Plasma at the moment?

If I stick with stable KDE4 for now, then as Plasma comes into stable branch too (however long that might be) will that automatically upgrade me from KDE4 to KDE5/Plasma? Or is that always going to be a manual task?


What are peoples thoughts on the current state of KDE5?

Thanks all.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: KDE SC 4 vs PLASMA Reply with quote

IncredibleMrT wrote:
What are peoples thoughts on the current state of KDE5?

There is no KDE5. ;)

Upgrading to Plasma-5 will involve taking manual steps, such as switching profile and cleaning old conflicting Plasma-4 deps, as the Upgrade Guide in Gentoo Wiki explains.

Stable users need to jump through a few hoops right now when they attempt to upgrade, that should get better in some time.
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IncredibleMrT
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You knew what I meant though ;)

What's the state of Plasma5 at the moment? Does it break regularly? Is there much left it cannot do? (within what's expected of it I mean)

Is it likely that it will be in stable any time soon?


I did have a stab at installing it an hour or so ago, just to see what would be involved. Changed my profile, rebuilt everything against it, adding use flags where required.

Then when I came to install plasma-meta, I got a fair few blockers against qtcore and the like.
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Perfect Gentleman
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stabilty is varing. my both installation are rather stable. sometimes plasmashell crashes, 1-2 times a week or rarely.
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IncredibleMrT
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perfect Gentleman, is your install from the portage tree of the overlay?

Besides Plasma, are you running a stable or test?
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Fitzcarraldo
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IncredibleMrT, here is my slant on it, for what it's worth ...

On my main laptop (Gentoo amd64), which I use for all my work and on which my livelihood depends, I am sticking with KDE 4 until 'KDE 5' (Frameworks 5/Plasma 5/Applications 5) is complete (it's still a work in progress, albeit now at an advanced stage).

My previous main laptop (Gentoo ~amd64) used to have KDE 4 on it (which worked very well indeed) but is now my test bed for KDE 5. I uninstalled all traces of KDE 4 (including all KDE 4 applications), removed other unneeded packages (660+) and cruft, and installed KDE 5 by following the Gentoo Wiki article (but not using any packages from the KDE overlay).

Although, by and large, KDE 5 works fine on my test bed, it is not quite as snappy as KDE 4 was on the same machine and there are still a few niggles even after a few upgrades to Frameworks/Plasma/Applications (e.g. KDE Plasma 5: KDEInit could not launch '/usr/bin/kwrite', Klash of Konsole and Yakuake, etc.). I will wait until KDE 5 is more stable and all the packages have been upgraded to Qt 5/Frameworks 5/Plasma 5 before migrating on my main laptop, as I need to be as sure as I can be that KDE 5 will not cause me any major problems on that machine.

//The 'There is no KDE 5' mantra is wearing thin, even if, strictly speaking, it is correct. I think I'm just going to refer to 'KDE 5' from now on. The intention is clear. 'KDE Frameworks 5/Plasma 5/Applications 5 is such a bloody mouthful.//
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asturm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IncredibleMrT wrote:

Then when I came to install plasma-meta, I got a fair few blockers against qtcore and the like.

Exactly what I was talking about. Stable users currently need to unmask additional Qt 5.5.1 dependencies.

Plasma 5 might soon be stable, I guess. Applications only after that.
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IncredibleMrT
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitzcarraldo - great film!

I think I might just stick with KDE4 for now then - I just didn't want to get all comfy using KDE4 if 5 was almost there, and nearly in stable.
Hmm I remember when KDE4 came out, and you could have it installed alongside KDE3 - I wonder if the same will be allowed of 5 against 4.

Fitzcarraldo, genstorm and Perfect Gentleman - thanks for your input. Didn't take too much to put me on the right track.

Matt.
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Perfect Gentleman
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IncredibleMrT wrote:
Perfect Gentleman, is your install from the portage tree of the overlay?

Besides Plasma, are you running a stable or test?

I use testing branch and kde-overlay.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fitzcarraldo wrote:
there are still a few niggles even after a few upgrades to Frameworks/Plasma/Applications (e.g. KDE Plasma 5: KDEInit could not launch '/usr/bin/kwrite', Klash of Konsole and Yakuake, etc.).

First one is indeed very strange, however the second one just was a local config/unmask issue. ;)

Fitzcarraldo wrote:
//The 'There is no KDE 5' mantra is wearing thin, even if, strictly speaking, it is correct. I think I'm just going to refer to 'KDE 5' from now on. The intention is clear. 'KDE Frameworks 5/Plasma 5/Applications 5 is such a bloody mouthful.//

No, please just be precise:

- You don't need to mention Frameworks - you didn't mention kdelibs-4 in the past when you were talking about KDE4 Apps or Workspace, did you? Except for support questions where the version can matter.
- Use Plasma-5.x.x when you talk about the desktop. It makes clear which version of Plasma you are running and ideally helps identify possible trouble from the start.
- Applications-5 does not even exist. Applications has releases based on yy.mm scheme, and it contains both KDE4 and KF5-based apps. So what would you call Applications-5 - only the KF5-based portion of it, or those applications with those high version numbers? And it doesn't even require Plasma-5 to be installed at all.

So, saying 'KDE5' really means all and nothing at the same time, and always begs for clarifications. In support questions, all three _precise_ product versions matter because bugs in Frameworks of course will manifest in Plasma and Applications.

IncredibleMrT wrote:
Hmm I remember when KDE4 came out, and you could have it installed alongside KDE3 - I wonder if the same will be allowed of 5 against 4.

Unfortunately, Plasma-4 and Plasma-5 collide with each other, there will be no way to have them installed at the same time. Applications also have conflicts in several places, making it not so pleasant to package - even within one release. But it'll get there.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So for the sake of very short acronyms the future is "K4" for "KDE SC 4" and "P5" for "KDE Plasma 5". :lol:

However, the following setup, with the help of the marvelous KDE and QT overlays, works just fine on my production laptop:

kde-frameworks 5.18.0
kde-plasma 5.5.4
kde-applications 15.12.1
dev-qt 5.5.1

I am using the whole PIM suite, too, but no activities. Never found a USE case for the latter.

There are, however, some quirks one has to live with. Like krunner being invisible when plugging in an external monitor. Or a few needed live packages, like kde-misc/yakuake:5.

Apart from that, everything is rock solid, at least on my machine. (System was built using gcc-5.3.0 btw.)
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asturm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
However, the following setup, with the help of the marvelous KDE and QT overlays, works just fine on my production laptop:

You're actually not using anything from Qt overlay in that list. ;) Anyway, I wouldn't recommend the qt development ground to regulars, serving the Qt 5.6.0 upgrade e.g. potentially breaks a lot of stuff (from depgraph to build time).
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I upgraded to Plasma 5 again a few weeks ago. I've been trying it off and on since over a year ago. It has come around and seems to be pretty stable. Still to be honest if you want absolute stability KDE4 is probably still the way to go as there are small issues.

-There still seems to be a small memory leak. With the recent releases it seems to have made things much better but there still seems to be a leak there which can be seen by how much memory plasmashell uses. From what I understand qt 5.6 should totally resolve it. Until then you'll probably have a minor leak. (possibly resolvable right now by pulling in the gentoo qt overlay which seems to have qt 5.6 https://github.com/gentoo/qt )

- Virtual workspaces and activities work but restoring a session with qt5 applications still didn't seem to be working right the last I checked. However I believe it is working with qt4 apps. (Resolved with qt 5.6 ????)

- Baloo (search) and Dolphin:5 integration still seems pretty messed up in some areas. For instance there is a long standing bug where the star ratings for a file do not display properly. Also the search seems to be non-functional (almost random) for doing things such as searching by file ratings.

OTOH though I've been able to get everything done on Plasma 5 so far for the last couple weeks and I haven't been annoyed enough yet to want to downgrade to KDE4 as I have before.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

davidm wrote:
Until then you'll probably have a minor leak. (possibly resolvable right now by pulling in the gentoo qt overlay which seems to have qt 5.6 https://github.com/gentoo/qt )

As said, use with extreme caution, e.g. recently (or currently) broken deps due to qtquick1 removal.

davidm wrote:
Virtual workspaces and activities work but restoring a session with qt5 applications still didn't seem to be working right the last I checked. However I believe it is working with qt4 apps. (Resolved with qt 5.6 ????)

Afaik not solved in 5.6.0. I'm using a backported (though unfortunately not yet accepted) patch for 5.5.1 that solves the issue.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I first installed plasma-meta-5.4.1 on my test bed machine back in September 2015, and subsequently upgraded to 5.4.2, 5.4.3, 5.5.1, 5.5.2 and, last week, 5.5.4.

In Plasma 5.4.3, KSysGuard showed 1.1 GiB (of 3.9 GiB) RAM in constant use with no extra applications running (the DropBox daemon and Yakuake are enabled to start automatically at Startup in System Settings, but that's it). In Plasma 5.5.4, KSysGuard sometimes shows 1.5 GiB of memory in constant use after I log in, whilst at other times it shows 1.1 GiB of memory in constant use after I log in.

Another couple of irritations I experience with Plasma 5.5.4:

When I log in, a miniscule Device Notifier icon is displayed at the top edge of the Panel in the System Tray. If I click on it, 'No Devices Available' (the font is almost the height of the Panel) sometimes appears in the System Tray superimposed on the other System Tray icons. However, if instead of clicking on the miniscule icon I click on the 'Show Hidden Icons' arrow icon in the System Tray, the aforementioned miniscule icon disappears and the Device Notifier icon behaves as expected from then onwards.

Sometimes the rotating Notifications icon appears in the Panel and remains rotating indefinitely. When I click on it, no notification message is displayed (even if I click on the chevron on the right side of the pop-up Notifications pane), just a horizontal bar bouncing back and forth. I have to click on the 'Stop' icon in the pane to get rid of the indeterminate notification.

I don't want or need help debugging any of the above; I'm just pointing them out here so that anyone reading this thread is aware that Plasma 5 is still a work in progress (KDE 4 running on the same machine did not exhibit these problems).
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Yamakuzure
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Yamakuzure wrote:
However, the following setup, with the help of the marvelous KDE and QT overlays, works just fine on my production laptop:

You're actually not using anything from Qt overlay in that list. ;)
Right. Both qt-5.5.1 and lxqt-0.10.0 have been moved to the portage tree. Haven't noticed both moves were completed already. Thanks for the hint!
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