should eudev be default set for virtual/udev?

krinn · Watchman Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 7470

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=573922

To not fall into another ffmpeg/libav fiasco, i'm opening this poll so community could tell our devs what we want instead of seeing them going into their usual childish battle done in their ml, just to see them closing the bug with whatever force choice they pick instead of asking us.
While i personally think it would be good that Gentoo use eudev as default to show other distributions that choose eudev already that we're also confident they made a good choice, it might not be what the majority of our community think.

I resume the poll to a yes/no in order to ease everyone life.

If you are a bit dumb, here's the typical poll choices you are not seeing in this one:
> i don't use udev or i don't use eudev...
-> if you think default should be eudev even you're not using it, vote yes
-> if you think default should be udev even you're not using it, vote no

> i don't care
-> normally you should just don't vote, but vote yes or no all you wish.

> what?
-> document yourself about what we are speaking about, or don't vote, or just vote yes or no.

I should had made many questions that would be considered yes or no to keep this poll safe from stupid ones, i think our community should have really few, making their random answer an acceptable error for me.
Poll will run 7 days.

Naib · Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:51 am Post subject:

There is already a systemd install medium and thus that will use udev (until it is depreciated)
Those that make the decision to not install system then have the choice of udev or eudev... Due to last rites have already been called on udev it is a no brainer for me, but until then... Since users have already made a choice to not use systems (or to to use openrc I should say...) then there is already a reasonable precedence that they would want eudev over udev so... Why not if you are not using systemd. Ebuilds and profiles already have enough configurability to choose the logical default
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The Doctor · Moderator Joined: 27 Jul 2010 Posts: 2678

I'd say eudev is the more reasonable default.

If someone wants to install systemd then the point is moot anyway. If they want OpenRC then there is a good chance they don't want to get too tangled in Red Hat politics. Indeed, we have seen fair number of people switching to Gentoo because they don't want to be forced to use of Red Hat software. The third type of user doesn't care about those details and are irrelevant to this.

On a technical note, udev requires sysetmd be built and the udev binary extracted. This is a intelligent build process. Eudev does not share this. If the install is going to be on older hardware this could become an issue.

On a future proofing note, udev has been marked either for complete removal or at least removal of independent support by the upstream developers. It makes sense to switch the default choice to the project that has shown commitment to supporting the product in the long run.

Given these 3 points I would conclude that changing the default device manager is the reasonable course of action.
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Fitzcarraldo · Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:56 pm Post subject:

My ~amd64 installation has been using eudev since October 2014, and my amd64 installation has been using eudev since I installed Gentoo in April 2015. I have experienced no problems with eudev (other than due to the Noddy functional design of udev, which eudev mirrors, but that's a different issue). I vote to make eudev the default in virtual/udev.
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Naib · Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:50 pm Post subject:

that bug is getting interesting
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khayyam · Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:00 pm Post subject:

Ant P. · Watchman Joined: 18 Apr 2009 Posts: 6920

Absolutely in support of eudev, if for no other reason than the mere suggestion of it becoming default offends that rent-a-coder moron WilliamH.

On a related note, when are we getting eOpenRC?

saellaven · l33t Joined: 23 Jul 2006 Posts: 654

standalone udev is deprecated upstream, so we can't count on it to continue to be usable.

people that want systemd will get systemd's supported version of udev by default.

Even ignoring the dogfood argument, eudev IS supported and is standalone.

Thus, it makes sense that, if you aren't on a systemd profile, eudev should be the preferred default.

You'll note that the anti-eudev-as-default people are the usual pro-systemd people and their argument basically comes down to "systemd is our god and it should be worshiped by default... you can trust Lennart despite what he has said... really."

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:13 pm Post subject:

krinn,

Mostly, I have a static /dev with no device manager to hold my hand.
When I'm being lazy, its eudev, so I voted that way.

I think its unlikely that udev supporters will follow the result of this poll ... the writing on the wall says

Fitzcarraldo · Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:40 am Post subject:

Yamakuzure · Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:26 am Post subject:

Actually I am a bit confused about the fuss that's going on about this.

Upstream says: "udev without systemd is discouraged and will break sometime in the future."
Gentoo tries to follow upstream as close as possible. (Good thing, imho!)
If I install my system with USE="-systemd", the current virtual/udev want's to pull in a systemd part anyway.
Therefore Gentoo does *not* follow upstream here *and* ignores *my* choice. (Can be fixed, of course.)

Actually I think it is really simple:

Users with USE="-systemd" get eudev by default.
Users with USE="systemd" get udev by default.
However, although USE="-systemd" is set, those users can still decide to install systemd-udev first, using --oneshot, before virtual/udev can pull in a favourite.

=> Everybody is happy.
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Edited 220,176 times by Yamakuzure

khayyam · Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:34 am Post subject:

asturm · Developer Joined: 05 Apr 2007 Posts: 9250

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:55 pm Post subject:

I actually like rich0's idea on the -dev list.
Take udev out of the stage3 and update the handbook to make the user choose none/mdev/udev/eudev/systemd/whatever at install time.
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mv · Watchman Joined: 20 Apr 2005 Posts: 6780

khayyam · Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:38 pm Post subject:

mv · Watchman Joined: 20 Apr 2005 Posts: 6780

Roman_Gruber · Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:35 pm Post subject:

i appreciate your efforts, but they hardly care for forum posts in my expierence for many many years.

Or any reasonable bug reports.

eudev works for myself.

NeddySeagoon · Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:43 pm Post subject:

mv,

How is it different to choosing and installing a kernel or a bootloader during the install?
Neither are in the stage3.

Something would need to be in the minimal *.ISO. Its a bit harsh expecting beginners to start with a static /dev and no auto anything.
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Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.

krinn · Watchman Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 7470

I don't think stage3 is relevant to this discussion. If you kick out dev manager from stage3, user will face default choice, either by emerging a package that need it, or just because even you tell him about mdev, none, systemd, udev... he will have to make a choice, and if he don't know the difference, your installation documentation will have to hint him about a default choice to pick.
a stage3 without dev manager will not remove the problem.

khayyam · Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:40 am Post subject:

The Doctor · Moderator Joined: 27 Jul 2010 Posts: 2678

I think krinn is right. All that removing udev from the stage3 does is move the argument to how the handbook is written. In all probability it would be the default in the virtual anyway as a dependency for something else. And it is a certainty we will get plenty of new and confused users on the forum wondering why their new install doesn't work like Ubuntu.

Personally, I think the handbook should be as simple as possible for the "default" install because the more new users who get confused the fewer new users Gentoo will get. Adding things like LVM, RAID, encryption, etc. would only serve to scare off new users and I think forcing a choice for udev falls under the same heading.
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First things first, but not necessarily in that order.

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Naib · Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:27 am Post subject:

Exactly.

While the bigger choice of sysd or not pretty much results in the same thing. In fact isn't there a sysd installed img already so the choice is done at that point and thus the non sysd stage3 just needs eudev and not udev
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Yamakuzure · Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:10 am Post subject: