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Tony0945
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Joined: 25 Jul 2006
Posts: 5127
Location: Illinois, USA
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 Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | "We won everything that we could have won. There's nothing else we can win. Except for Gentoo maybe." |
Yeah, I'm seeing more and more systemd in the forum requests. |
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krinn
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Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 7470
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:51 am Post subject: |
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"Do Pottering dream about Gentoo?"
Seriously, "the wakeup call", now "Gentoo" name in his systemd presentation, he have really something with Gentoo.
ps: i'm just curious of why, as i don't think it's bad, Pottering is giving Gentoo more publicity (and a good one) than distrowatch do  |
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steveL
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Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | Remember: simple clean code, is simple to maintain, debug, and understand, and far simpler for the compiler to optimise, and much more likely to stay fast on different platforms, and in situations you never envisaged. |
| Tony0945 wrote: | | Another job at another client was a demo board for an offset printer. I knew and now know nothing about offset printers, so I had to program strictly on their requirements. I think that project was all assembly language, an 8051 I think. The deadline was for a trade show. I finished the project and went on vacation. They had a spec change that required a program change. They couldn't get hold of me and changed it on their own. The program manager later complimented me on writing it in a clear manner with function comments that were clear and appropriate, function names that made sense and overall clarity. they figured out what to do in an hour. We had had no walk throughs or design reviews because everyone was busy. I was rather proud of that praise. |
Heh, this set off all sorts of resonances when I read it; had to take a day or so to let it go round (and reminisce ofc;)
I know exactly what you mean: being unappreciated is the fate of the programmer who cares about one's craft.
(That's why we gather on IRC with other been-there-got-the-burnouts, to commiserate..)
So it's really great when someone takes the time to compliment you, even more so when it is for what you think is worthy of praise, not just "thanks for getting it going!" (though those count too; it's nice to know someone is happier using your system, than before you came in ;)
| Quote: | | It takes skill to make it simple, just like it takes writing skill for an author to write a novel that flows well. |
Exactly; and it is a creative effort, as with writing, painting or making music.
obligatory: | Mikhail Kalashnikov wrote: | | To make something simple is a thousand times harder than making something complicated. |
| Quote: | | L.P. would probably be proud of obscurity rather than clarity. |
Yeah he is, from what I've seen over the years.
It's a shame, really, as he's quite intelligent; in the normal run of things, give it 10 years and he'll have learnt the same lessons we have.
Unfortunately, this isn't what I consider the normal run of things: he's made far too many grandiloquent, bulshytt statements along the way, excuses for why he doesn't know POSIX etc.
Now, he's learning to use those things he'd always denigrated (take a look at the code which clears a namespace, i think it is, for an example: he includes all the POSIX interfaces first, and that is pretty much most of what the code is about.)
However, he does not have the concomitant self-insight to publicly acknowledge his earlier, flawed reasoning.
From where I'm sitting, this is because he's not as interested in the craft, as he is in his 15 minutes of infamy, and the ability to lord it over people who will grow out of their need for fanboi status.
It's what I've rambled on about before, ie good coders readily admit their mistakes, because they make so many of them all the time; that's what coding is about: constant revision after review.
You can only revise based on a sense that you didn't get it right the first time, and no-one ever does: if they tell you otherwise, they're lying.
Version 0.1 might be clean and work for the subset of the problem it addresses, but it took time to get there. No code file was written at one sitting, and worked perfectly, and was minimally clean while still retaining necessary complexity, without review and edit.
On the very rare occasions where that does happen, there was in fact review and edit at the time, and there had been an awful lot of thinking, and usually at least 3 or 4 variants on the same file (likely a single function, as far as other modules are concerned), beforehand.
At least IME. I learnt very early on (but not so early, that it didn't come as a great shock: I was cocksure of my ability) that if you simply write without thinking, and testing every part, you quickly end up in a mess, and end up throwing it all away, mainly because you feel so disgusted with yourself when you look at the morass of code you now have to make work. It's quicker just to redo it cleanly all the way through.
But it does teach you humility, as does working in asm, and you keep on bumping into that same issue, every few years in some job or another, until you realise it's a cycle; it takes a while longer to actually let go, and it costs personal pride to admit to yourself that you're the problem (another reason coding is not for everyone.) Essentially, that you're wresting with "complexity of one's own making" (audio).
You have to go a step further though, and research what others have done to deal with the same issue. (All the stuff you read, without grokking, along the way.)
Nowadays, you're lucky, in that all the "whispered lore" is available on the internet. On the other hand, so is an awful lot of crap, and it outnumbers the good advice very heavily. Especially when we factor in the RoTW's propensity for deception as a way to "make a living", and what can only be described as a moral collapse; it certainly never used to be considered "smart" to lie one's way into gain, in the UK for sure: only fraudulent at best.
| Quote: | | Although as my boss at the consulting firm once said,"If they knew how to write software, they wouldn't need us." |
Heh; not everyone wants to write software, and even fewer are truly suited to it, from what I've seen.
Live and let live; just don't try to sell us a load of crap as supah-sauce.
Poeterring will rightly be derided, precisely because he has used propaganda and politicking (the "gentle Putsch"), as well as deliberate crippling of dependency-trees and prior art (all the subsumed projects), in order to advance his cause; whereas everyone else lets their code, its utility and elegance, including its external as well as internal modularity, speak for them.
All systemdbust has shown is the truth of the old adage: Those who don't understand UNIX, are condemned to reinvent it: badly.
That's what previous discussion on, say, how dbust tried to reinvent the kernel, or polickyshit tried to reinvent the kernel permissions model, and bodged it, when they should have used PAM from the beginning, which was pooh-poohed for years, and then miraculously became a required-dependency; or the god-awful use of javascript when they finally saw the need for evaluation, instead of shell (or in the specific case, learning from visudo).. was all about.
Pointless reinvention by nubs who had not done their research, and simply sought to emulate the worst of proprietary systems, instead of understanding what a game-changer UNIX was, and remains.
edit: urls.
Last edited by steveL on Tue Nov 10, 2015 11:24 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Naib
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | | Quote: | | "We won everything that we could have won. There's nothing else we can win. Except for Gentoo maybe." |
Yeah, I'm seeing more and more systemd in the forum requests. |
That in itself is a major issue. It is being treated as a conquest. If it provided a solution it would naturally usurp what presently exists
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Stribor
n00b
Joined: 14 Sep 2015
Posts: 1
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | Tony0945 wrote: | | Quote: | | "We won everything that we could have won. There's nothing else we can win. Except for Gentoo maybe." |
Yeah, I'm seeing more and more systemd in the forum requests. |
That in itself is a major issue. It is being treated as a conquest. If it provided a solution it would naturally usurp what presently exists |
Is systemd written by people from somethingawful forums? |
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khayyam
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Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Stribor wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | Tony0945 wrote: | | Yeah, I'm seeing more and more systemd in the forum requests. |
That in itself is a major issue. It is being treated as a conquest. If it provided a solution it would naturally usurp what presently exists |
Is systemd written by people from somethingawful forums? |
Stribor ... first post, you signed up to say what?
best ... khay |
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depontius
Advocate
Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3509
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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I won't pretend to know the systemd end-game, but I'll suggest that their actions make more sense if you look a bit down the road.
I believe they're looking toward the day of "containerized applications." Forget the current world of /usr/bin and /usr/lib/xxxxx.so. Think that an application comes in a container, with all of its dependencies. That means you'll have a lot of copies of, say Qt, on your system, but disk is cheap. Qt remains separate as a development effort, but it will effectively quit being a shared lib, because none of the containerized applications will share it, they'll all have their own.
This will be sold on two grounds, and I believe we'll all first agree that both are red herrings. First is security, the container will be sold as secure, the answer to secure computing in the new age. Second is the end do dependency problems - dll h*ll in Windows terms, and I'm sure that there will be a case made that it's a horrible problem in Linux, too. Of course container security become flawed once you realize that some cross-container data sharing needs to happen. I'm sure systemd-OLE will rise to the occasion, shuffling data between containers over kdbus - and we've just defined the newest attack vector.
Beyond that, I expect containerized applications to be part of a deployment strategy. Quite some time ago, the systemd folks were talking about being able to roll systems back and foward using btrfs snapshots. Corporations like to lock down the PCs they give employees. Software companies like to lock down the applications they sell. They get a big boost forward with containers and the systemd stuff underneath. They basically turn your PC into a cloud-adjunct.
It's not the PC as we know it.
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virtguru
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 14 Aug 2010
Posts: 148
Location: The Greatest Country in the World
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: |
It's what I've rambled on about before, ie good coders readily admit their mistakes, because they make so many of them all the time; that's what coding is about: constant revision after review.
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Thanks , that one sentence says it all ! Can I borrow it for a sig ? |
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virtguru
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 14 Aug 2010
Posts: 148
Location: The Greatest Country in the World
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | I won't pretend to know the systemd end-game, but I'll suggest that their actions make more sense if you look a bit down the road.
I believe they're looking toward the day of "containerized applications." Forget the current world of /usr/bin and /usr/lib/xxxxx.so. Think that an application comes in a container, with all of its dependencies. That means you'll have a lot of copies of, say Qt, on your system, but disk is cheap. Qt remains separate as a development effort, but it will effectively quit being a shared lib, because none of the containerized applications will share it, they'll all have their own.
This will be sold on two grounds, and I believe we'll all first agree that both are red herrings. First is security, the container will be sold as secure, the answer to secure computing in the new age. Second is the end do dependency problems - dll h*ll in Windows terms, and I'm sure that there will be a case made that it's a horrible problem in Linux, too. Of course container security become flawed once you realize that some cross-container data sharing needs to happen. I'm sure systemd-OLE will rise to the occasion, shuffling data between containers over kdbus - and we've just defined the newest attack vector.
Beyond that, I expect containerized applications to be part of a deployment strategy. Quite some time ago, the systemd folks were talking about being able to roll systems back and foward using btrfs snapshots. Corporations like to lock down the PCs they give employees. Software companies like to lock down the applications they sell. They get a big boost forward with containers and the systemd stuff underneath. They basically turn your PC into a cloud-adjunct.
It's not the PC as we know it. |
I tend to agree with your speculation, the containers bring a new light to the whole system!?%!WTF discussion although of course its still speculation at this point? They would have a lot of work to do to make this possible and stable, although RH tends to just push things out to enterprise anyway, regardless. (Im not flaming there, just see it everyday) Correct me if im wrong, actually it just sounds like an expensively coded sandboxed app that has been available to any hardened BSD or Linux for years. Any real *nix veteran in the hosting space knows this. I guess the key is the automation or replication maybe? Funny thing is its all been available for years already!
*edit meant to say expensively coded jail for BSD* |
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khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| tr0ll wrote: | | I tend to agree with your speculation, the containers bring a new light to the whole system!?%!WTF discussion although of course its still speculation at this point? They would have a lot of work to do to make this possible and stable, although RH tends to just push things out to enterprise anyway, regardless. (Im not flaming there, just see it everyday) Correct me if im wrong, actually it just sounds like an expensively coded sandboxed app that has been available to any hardened BSD or Linux for years. Any real *nix veteran in the hosting space knows this. I guess the key is the automation or replication maybe? Funny thing is its all been available for years already! |
tr0ll, depontius, et al ... this presentation (pdf) from Gnome Asia 2014 suggests containerised everything ...
| Lennart Poettering wrote: | What we are working on:
OS image format
Container image format
App image format |
... so, something like App Store for GnomeOS, no doubt similarly metered.
best ... khay |
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virtguru
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 14 Aug 2010
Posts: 148
Location: The Greatest Country in the World
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| khayyam wrote: | | tr0ll wrote: | | I tend to agree with your speculation, the containers bring a new light to the whole system!?%!WTF discussion although of course its still speculation at this point? They would have a lot of work to do to make this possible and stable, although RH tends to just push things out to enterprise anyway, regardless. (Im not flaming there, just see it everyday) Correct me if im wrong, actually it just sounds like an expensively coded sandboxed app that has been available to any hardened BSD or Linux for years. Any real *nix veteran in the hosting space knows this. I guess the key is the automation or replication maybe? Funny thing is its all been available for years already! |
tr0ll, depontius, et al ... this presentation (pdf) from Gnome Asia 2014 suggests containerised everything ...
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WOW just WOW, I got to the bag of bits slide and had to close it , reopened provided no further detailed insight except the repetitive headlines of "where are we now" with nothing tangible as well as the "objectives" and what we are working on" There is nothing there, IMHO the whole thing is being run off the seat of their pants and they know it.
*edit* still cant believe the /etc optional part makes me want to puke. Sounds to me like LP just wants to roll out a new distro to the masses behind the scenes. |
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khayyam
Watchman
Joined: 07 Jun 2012
Posts: 6227
Location: Room 101
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| tr0ll wrote: |
WOW just WOW, I got to the bag of bits slide and had to close it , reopened provided no further detailed insight except the repetitive headlines of "where are we now" with nothing tangible as well as the "objectives" and what we are working on" There is nothing there, IMHO the whole thing is being run off the seat of their pants and they know it. |
tr0ll ... that "objective" has already been stated (by LP) "standardizing the base system". Everything will require systemd as its role is to sit "between applications and the kernel", the arbitor of the entire system, and every system ("Desktop, Server, Container, Embeded, Mobile, Cloud, Cluster") is just an "instance" (container, app, or what-have-you). Yeah, no more "bag of bits".
| tr0ll wrote: | | *edit* still cant believe the /etc optional part makes me want to puke. Sounds to me like LP just wants to roll out a new distro to the masses behind the scenes. |
It's not a "new distro", its "the distro" + app store.
best ... khay |
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gwr
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Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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David Edmundson from KDE, concluded that "In many cases [systemd] allows us to throw away large amounts of code whilst at the same time providing a better user experience. Adding it [systemd] as an optional extra defeats the main benefit".
http://blog.davidedmundson.co.uk/blog/systemd-and-plasma
Looks like more 1:1 integration directly with systemd without any room for other alternatives. |
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madjestic
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Joined: 10 Oct 2013
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| gwr wrote: | David Edmundson from KDE, concluded that "In many cases [systemd] allows us to throw away large amounts of code whilst at the same time providing a better user experience. Adding it [systemd] as an optional extra defeats the main benefit".
http://blog.davidedmundson.co.uk/blog/systemd-and-plasma
Looks like more 1:1 integration directly with systemd without any room for other alternatives. |
Hmm... I've been a KDE user for a few years, but I've been playing with Xmonad too, as an alternative: got everything I need running, including OpenCL, Steam games, etc., and have been asking myself if there is a good reason for keeping plasma5, but was unsure about cutting the line... Thank you for making this decision easier. So long, KDE, and thanks for all the fish. |
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Anon-E-moose
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Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6098
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:49 am Post subject: |
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A slashdot article about what gwr mentioned.
http://linux.slashdot.org/story/15/11/25/1728238/will-you-be-able-to-run-a-modern-desktop-environment-in-2016-without-systemd
Edit to add: I personally think that kde and the distros are making a mistake focusing on sysd, but it's their call.
But in the future they have lost all rights to whine when they start getting locked out of the linux arena by RH, and that will happen.
How many times did we hear MS say to competitors, "work with us"...well until they didn't need them any longer and then they shut them out.
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gwr
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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The sheer audacity of people who claim to be neither developers nor administrators actively defending systemd's purpose and design is amazing. |
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enZom
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Joined: 13 Nov 2015
Posts: 30
Location: In a sandbox
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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I don't want to get into the politics of systemd. And I apologize for that considering the title of the thread.
I'm just hoping there will always be a No systemd option in Gentoo. Its one of the reasons I started playing around with Gentoo in the first place. |
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gwr
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Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| enZom wrote: | I don't want to get into the politics of systemd. And I apologize for that considering the title of the thread.
I'm just hoping there will always be a No systemd option in Gentoo. Its one of the reasons I started playing around with Gentoo in the first place. |
The politics of systemd are such that it threatens to make a non-systemd option of any Linux distribution difficult or impossible. If enough software directly supports only systemd, then it may become difficult to find the volunteer effort required to shim a distribution away from it. At the very least, the systemd people don't care about that, and at the worst they are seeking it. |
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enZom
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Joined: 13 Nov 2015
Posts: 30
Location: In a sandbox
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| gwr wrote: | | enZom wrote: | I don't want to get into the politics of systemd. And I apologize for that considering the title of the thread.
I'm just hoping there will always be a No systemd option in Gentoo. Its one of the reasons I started playing around with Gentoo in the first place. |
The politics of systemd are such that it threatens to make a non-systemd option of any Linux distribution difficult or impossible. If enough software directly supports only systemd, then it may become difficult to find the volunteer effort required to shim a distribution away from it. At the very least, the systemd people don't care about that, and at the worst they are seeking it. |
Its not that I'm unaware of the issues and politics concerning systemd, its that discussing it in forums and via mailing lists until you're blue in the face does jack shit to solve the problem.
If it becomes as bad as I think it will, we'll all most likely end up on some variant of bsd. In the meantime I'll enjoy Gentoo as long as possible. |
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gwr
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Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| enZom wrote: | | gwr wrote: | | enZom wrote: | I don't want to get into the politics of systemd. And I apologize for that considering the title of the thread.
I'm just hoping there will always be a No systemd option in Gentoo. Its one of the reasons I started playing around with Gentoo in the first place. |
The politics of systemd are such that it threatens to make a non-systemd option of any Linux distribution difficult or impossible. If enough software directly supports only systemd, then it may become difficult to find the volunteer effort required to shim a distribution away from it. At the very least, the systemd people don't care about that, and at the worst they are seeking it. |
Its not that I'm unaware of the issues and politics concerning systemd, its that discussing it in forums and via mailing lists until you're blue in the face does jack shit to solve the problem.
If it becomes as bad as I think it will, we'll all most likely end up on some variant of bsd. In the meantime I'll enjoy Gentoo as long as possible. |
It does no harm to discuss the matter in a forum called Gentoo Chat. Don't join a discussion simply to state that the discussion isn't worth having. No one forced you to read it.
Some awareness of the issues is valuable to some people. |
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saellaven
l33t
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 646
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| enZom wrote: | | gwr wrote: | | enZom wrote: | I don't want to get into the politics of systemd. And I apologize for that considering the title of the thread.
I'm just hoping there will always be a No systemd option in Gentoo. Its one of the reasons I started playing around with Gentoo in the first place. |
The politics of systemd are such that it threatens to make a non-systemd option of any Linux distribution difficult or impossible. If enough software directly supports only systemd, then it may become difficult to find the volunteer effort required to shim a distribution away from it. At the very least, the systemd people don't care about that, and at the worst they are seeking it. |
Its not that I'm unaware of the issues and politics concerning systemd, its that discussing it in forums and via mailing lists until you're blue in the face does jack shit to solve the problem.
If it becomes as bad as I think it will, we'll all most likely end up on some variant of bsd. In the meantime I'll enjoy Gentoo as long as possible. |
I believe a large part of the reason why Gentoo isn't systemd only is because of those of us that stood up loud right here, pointing out the flaws and problems with systemd from the beginning of it starting to gain traction (in my case, since williamh got his fellow Council members to make the decision to start crippling Gentoo/openrc to cover for systemd's shortcomings, which is when I realized that a package that I refuse to use was going to start affecting my system).
As for not solving the problem, the truth is, some of us are prepared to fork if it comes down to that. It won't necessarily help with upstream stupidity, but it's that or abandon Linux for BSD (some flavors of which have their own stupidity going on).
On a related note, I ended up with a new laptop that has Windows 10 installed... and I find it to be utterly useless. I can't stand the interface, the popups, etc built into the OS. I feel like it holds me back from doing the things I want to do. The direction the UX people have taken Linux, added in with svchostsystemd and the like has me sitting here thinking... is the golden age of computing over? Have we come to the point that computers are no longer tools to get things done, but rather we are tools for our computers, sitting here mindlessly inputting at their direction? It feels like we've traded our computers in for something that's not much more than interactive television. I watch people buried in their smartphones, scrolling through endless amounts of lolcat images and can't help but feel sad that, that is what the average person and the typical computer have become. I guess I'm just an anachronistic holdout, still believing that computers can be more useful than a networked pocket tv that has GPS and a calculator on it. |
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gwr
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Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| saellaven wrote: | | is the golden age of computing over? Have we come to the point that computers are no longer tools to get things done, but rather we are tools for our computers, sitting here mindlessly inputting at their direction? |
Science left computing science a long time ago. It should be called computing marketing now. The goals of the industry are no longer in line with the users, they are in line with business that need to continually find a way to sell the next version of something or to find a way to monetize the next cheaply-made quickly-consumed hunk of junk.
And don't even get me started on the start-up rockstar developer thing. |
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davidm
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Posts: 557
Location: US
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Tony0945 wrote: | | Quote: | | "We won everything that we could have won. There's nothing else we can win. Except for Gentoo maybe." |
Yeah, I'm seeing more and more systemd in the forum requests. |
I think many of us switched to systemd because we saw the writing on the wall. Personally for me it was when I used Plasma 5 and started having weirdness with sddm (this has since been fixed I believe with consolekit2 support?). It was also that I saw kdbus coming and figured it would be in the stable kernel now. I'm actually glad I was wrong on that.
Personally I don't care too strongly either way. There are some thing I like about systemd but there are some things I do not like too.
1. It seems after a crash the binary journal is always corrupted so the most recent entries are missing. There probably is a way around this and I could always use syslog with journald.
2. The timer functionality is a bit more complicated than crontab. (I could just use cron still if I wanted so this is sort of on me too)
3. The .service and "wants" + ".socket" etc files can get pretty complicated. I have a three disk encrypted btrfs raid1 array and was trying to get systemd to supposedly use a feature where it would only ask for the password once. I used a certain generator (the name escapes me but it was something like cryptsetup-systemd.generator) to try to generate the needed service, etc. files. Well it did but it doesn't seem to work and it seems extremely complex and almost undecipherable. I've also found the documentation with this to be severely lacking. |
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schorsch_76
Guru
Joined: 19 Jun 2012
Posts: 450
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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As i read that KDE started to support systemd it was just a matter of time until they switch completly to it.
We dont need systemd when we want to avoid it. For me it just comes down to one question: Why do we want a "modern" desktop? Can we live with an "old" desktop like lxde or just window managers like i3 or icewm ?
For myself the decission is done. Systemd is hardmasked on my machines. System startup has been migrated to sys-process/minit. Udev replaced with mdev. Custom init and initramfs scripts. In fact i could even start my system when i build it with buildroot. (even there is the ability to use systemd).
There are two things you can do to defend yourselfs freedom:
- To get a different version of gentoo without systemd dependent parts just hardmask it.
- learn how the lower level parts of linux work. Learn and get knowledge.
The devil is just: "It is so convinient. I dont need to know much. It takes big work of me. (See the blog post about KDE)". But in fact this mindset is everywhere in our todays modern world. People dont want to think. They dont want to learn. They just want to consume.
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// valid again: I forgot about the git access. Now 1.2GB big. Start: 2015-06-25
git daily portage tree
Web: https://github.com/schorsch1976/portage
git clone https://github.com/schorsch1976/portage |
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madjestic
n00b
Joined: 10 Oct 2013
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | but there are some things I do not like too. |
I mostly do not like the fact that somebody is forcing me to become a systemd beta-tester in the name of RedHat interests and, very likely, to break my system badly a couple of times. I am lacking the incentive. I do not understand why. I am thankful that gentoo allows me to choose not to and provides a stable system that is adequate to my tasks.
It may be that in a few years gentoo+systemd will be polished enough so that the transition may happen without hitch.
It may be that in a few years of beta-testing systemd, some of its flaws will be exposed, fixed, revised, replaced with yet better alternatives, hence making the transition more attractive and changing the situation in general.
It may be that, eventually, alternative kernels (BSD, Hurd?) will become sufficiently on par with Linux kernel (drivers support, OpenGL, OpenCL, certain software support, things I care most) giving transition options.
| Quote: | | It is so convinient. I dont need to know much. It takes big work of me. (See the blog post about KDE)". But in fact this mindset is everywhere in our todays modern world. People dont want to think. They dont want to learn. They just want to consume. |
It feels like modern desktops are, to a large degree, about wrapping up low-level stuff in shiny GUIs, where presentation is valued above efficiency. What's worse - some desktops paradigms pretend they know better how a user should interact with the machine. It attracts users with certain mindsets and, together with developers of certain mindset and marketeers, it creates a feedback loop.
All above may sound negative, but there will be positives too: systemd-kdbus monstrosity, after enough testing and polishing, may bring useful results, the growing interest of corporations promises better hardware and drivers support (mainstreamisation of linux), all that, GPL provided, will back-feed into the rest of the ecosystem.
The future is bright. |
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