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yngwin
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Dec 2002
Posts: 4572
Location: Suzhou, China
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 Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | If only you didn't proclaim the right for developers to special treatment in terms of moderation and behaviour, your protestations of "one community" might have some credibility, yngwin.
In fact, as pointed out, it's developers who don't even manage to behave as well as users overall, leave alone set a higher standard.
Or the CoC would never have come about.
Thanks for not quibbling with the fact that the Council CoC disciplinary procedures only apply to developers.
Or are you just pretending it never got said?
Point being, users who "misbehave" as you put it, have always been kept in line by the forums mods and IRC ops.
The "user" who "misbehaved" and brought about the Community CoC process, was ofc an ex-developer, whom none of your apparently strong-willed and "individual" developers could eject from their midst for over 4 years.
So again, I state clearly: it's the developer culture that needs to change, not the user one, which is what keeps so many people with Gentoo, and always has done. |
Except that none of what you say is true. E.g. the forum mods do not keep users like you in line.
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krinn
Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 7470
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 11:18 am Post subject: |
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You have report him and no mods saw a problem ; and you are suggesting they are steveL's friends or bias or against you or whatever but they didn't do the job.
Of course if everyone is wrong and you are right, it must be because they are wrong and aren't doing the work... How could it not be that, because it couldn't be you?
To get some respect, you need to provide yourself some to other, and other could be users, or mods. Your dev tag itself provide some to you, it's a respect bonus ; but it's not a magic wand, and it might be even worst as it will also gives a bonus in the other side, making that tag worst to wear if your attitude isn't right.
Do you think you were respectful to them?
Many devs have an ego problem, because the little tag provide them some respect freely, they think they don't need to provide any themselves anymore. |
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TomWij
Retired Dev
Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 1553
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| krinn wrote: | To get some respect, you need to provide yourself some to other, and other could be users, or mods. Your dev tag itself provide some to you, it's a respect bonus ; but it's not a magic wand, and it might be even worst as it will also gives a bonus in the other side, making that tag worst to wear if your attitude isn't right.
Do you think you were respectful to them?
Many devs have an ego problem, because the little tag provide them some respect freely, they think they don't need to provide any themselves anymore. |
That is not the only tag on this forum! Many advocates have a judgement problem, which could be a reason for a crusade against advocates. Would it be intended as a crusade, or only be perceived as such?
This change request is a psychological projection that assumes independent cultures, as you ignore that "developers" are a part of the "community" in your referenced thread. |
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krinn
Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 7470
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| TomWij wrote: | | That is not the only tag on this forum! Many advocates have a judgement problem |
While i'm unsure the value anyone put on the advocate tag, it is hard to tell that value (does join date more valuable?)
But it's only for gentoo community, because i think join date, or advocate (or even mod tag) mean nothing for non gentoo users ; while dev tag mean really something for non gentoo users.
So any advocate that would get out of path would just be in the end, just a gentoo user for everyone, no more.
If i start flaming here and there, i'm just krinn, advocate or not who cares, i'll be seen as just a gentoo user, but if you start doing it, you're not TomWij, you're TomWij the gentoo dev and it's clearly not the same.
Think about it: if i do that, start posting and bitching everywhere, do you really think our mods would need to ban me (i could do that everywhere while still be Mr nice here)?
Now if a gentoo dev start doing that, do you really think the community would not take any action?
So that dev tag isn't something you should forget when you speak with anyone, and it's not because it's gentoo forum that it could be forget.
It's even not to be forget when you speak with mods, that are doing the work and may invest even more time than most gentoo dev in the community.
And i would say, if advocate title is grant by post number and the guy reach that post number by helping users ; than you should keep that in mind, because he is doing his part too, many bugs are solved because of him, and your time is not lost on answering trillions bugs because of him that filter or kick out them before they reach bugzilla. So by helping users, he is helping you too.
So don't be condescending with anyone (you didn't TomWij there, but yngwin did) because you're a dev, you are doing a great part of the job, no doubt ; but you are still a part of job, it doesn't mean other aren't of any value in doing it, and they aren't slaves working for devs, but like dev, working for the community. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| yngwin wrote: | | Except that none of what you say is true. E.g. the forum mods do not keep users like you in line. |
Great to see the art of reasoned argument is alive and well in Gentoo developer circles.
All of what I said is true, and you haven't shown the contrary in any aspect.
Continuing to bleat on about a self-evidently groundless complaint, that got nowhere despite your vindictive attempt to bypass the moderation process and spin it up into a wholly-inappropriate and entirely-inapplicable developer disciplinary process, merely shows what really matters to you: keeping users who demur from the proposition that all is well in lala-land, "in line".
The insipid notion some of you "developers" are trying to establish as a meme -- that the only thing that's wrong with Gentoo is users like me -- may assuage your cognitive dissonance, but it flies in the face of established history as well as simple common sense. |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| TomWij wrote: | | This change request is a psychological projection that assumes independent cultures, as you ignore that "developers" are a part of the "community" in your referenced thread. |
Only if one is trying to pull one sentence out, and ignore the rest.
Which as I recall, is something of a speciality with you, so good luck with that. |
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TomWij
Retired Dev
Joined: 04 Jul 2012
Posts: 1553
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| Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| krinn wrote: | But it's only for gentoo community, because i think join date, or advocate (or even mod tag) mean nothing for non gentoo users ; while dev tag mean really something for non gentoo users.
So any advocate that would get out of path would just be in the end, just a gentoo user for everyone, no more.
If i start flaming here and there, i'm just krinn, advocate or not who cares, i'll be seen as just a gentoo user, but if you start doing it, you're not TomWij, you're TomWij the gentoo dev and it's clearly not the same. |
Only if you assume a developer to be more than an advocate. There are many advocates that spend way more effort on Gentoo than developers. These advocates help and reach and influence more users, they communicate information between parts of the community, they go into the details of analyzing and explaining and resolving nasty problems, they are there for a chat and ideas and the list goes on... Clearly advocates can be considered to be more than a developer!
| krinn wrote: | Think about it: if i do that, start posting and bitching everywhere, do you really think our mods would need to ban me (i could do that everywhere while still be Mr nice here)?
Now if a gentoo dev start doing that, do you really think the community would not take any action?
So that dev tag isn't something you should forget when you speak with anyone, and it's not because it's gentoo forum that it could be forget.
It's even not to be forget when you speak with mods, that are doing the work and may invest even more time than most gentoo dev in the community.
And i would say, if advocate title is grant by post number and the guy reach that post number by helping users ; than you should keep that in mind, because he is doing his part too, many bugs are solved because of him, and your time is not lost on answering trillions bugs because of him that filter or kick out them before they reach bugzilla. So by helping users, he is helping you too. |
So that advocate tag isn't something you should forget when you speak with anyone, ...
| krinn wrote: | | So don't be condescending with anyone (you didn't TomWij there, but yngwin did) because you're a dev, you are doing a great part of the job, no doubt ; but you are still a part of job, it doesn't mean other aren't of any value in doing it, and they aren't slaves working for devs, but like dev, working for the community. |
Yes, trying to be humble here! This advocate tag example further demonstrates the mutual respect concept you brought forward, by exploring the other side by the coin. Devs could be considered slaves too, because of the accountability of their actions; but really, they're nothing more than a part of the community.
| steveL wrote: | | yngwin wrote: | | Except that none of what you say is true. E.g. the forum mods do not keep users like you in line. |
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| steveL wrote: | | TomWij wrote: | | This change request is a psychological projection that assumes independent cultures, as you ignore that "developers" are a part of the "community" in your referenced thread. |
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| steveL wrote: | | Only if one is trying to pull one sentence out, and ignore the rest. |
Yes, you did! Thank you for your agreement. It is your specialty as well, so good luck and have fun with your psychological projection... |
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yngwin
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Dec 2002
Posts: 4572
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | | yngwin wrote: | | Except that none of what you say is true. E.g. the forum mods do not keep users like you in line. |
Great to see the art of reasoned argument is alive and well in Gentoo developer circles. |
You're welcome!
| steveL wrote: | | All of what I said is true, and you haven't shown the contrary in any aspect. |
I wasn't trying to give a blow-by-blow rebuttal. I just stated the obvious: that you are spreading lies, once again.
| steveL wrote: | | Continuing to bleat on about a self-evidently groundless complaint, |
Calling our developers "neo-fascist asshats" is self-evidently offensive. To deny this is either stupid or misleading.
| steveL wrote: | | that got nowhere despite your vindictive attempt to bypass the moderation process and spin it up into a wholly-inappropriate and entirely-inapplicable developer disciplinary process, |
ComRel is for the whole community, not just for developers.
| steveL wrote: | merely shows what really matters to you: keeping users who demur from the proposition that all is well in lala-land, "in line".
The insipid notion some of you "developers" are trying to establish as a meme -- that the only thing that's wrong with Gentoo is users like me -- may assuage your cognitive dissonance, but it flies in the face of established history as well as simple common sense. |
What I actually said was:
| yngwin wrote: | | We are one community, and we have members (both devs and non-dev users) who misbehave. |
Showing once again that you are habitually lying and twisting words.
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szatox
Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3134
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | that advocate tag isn't something you should forget when you speak with anyone, ... |
Actually krinn is right here, advocate or not, he is "just krinn", as much and as little as that. Just like many other regular users nobody cares about until befriending one. Yeah, I know, it goes the same way for me.
However developers are more visible at least due to forum layout. Just like mods and admins are more visible. Colored names, colored titles (yup, "developer" title is red) and that picture replacing rank imply higher importance. Whether it's true or false is not important. It looks that way from start, and changing that takes time, just like befriending users does. |
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EmaRsk
Apprentice
Joined: 07 Sep 2004
Posts: 158
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| szatox wrote: | | However developers are more visible at least due to forum layout. Just like mods and admins are more visible. |
True. Before this thread, I never noticed that the "Advocate" tag is something different that "n00b", "l33t", "Apprentice", etc.. 
Mod, Admin and Developer are really noticeable, instead. They also have a more recognizable meaning: it's clearer to me what a developer is supposed to do, much less what being an advocate means.
Also, I did notice a theme of "developers vs. users" going on in some threads, but I dismissed it as general human silliness, easy to filter out of the signal.
Ironically, in some of them this is fuelled by a particular developer who seems to enjoy bashing some core Gentoo components and their developers. |
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desultory
Bodhisattva
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 9410
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| yngwin wrote: | | Except that none of what you say is true. E.g. the forum mods do not keep users like you in line. |
You and I both know how that was resolved, and your response thereto, all while the user who was the subject of your complaint was never properly notified that such a complaint was pending. So, could you kindly stick to pending issues, or at least keep to your word about closed ones?
| yngwin wrote: | | I wasn't trying to give a blow-by-blow rebuttal. I just stated the obvious: that you are spreading lies, once again. |
You are free to attack an argument, not the user behind it.
| yngwin wrote: | | Calling our developers "neo-fascist asshats" is self-evidently offensive. To deny this is either stupid or misleading. |
As you have already been told, referring to a specific subset in a manner consistent with their behavior is not offensive to a rational observer. Or was that deliberately meant to be an ad hominem attack against site staff, specifically me?
Without specifically citing, other, instances this topic is edging toward locking, or at least splitting, given the tone that some are taking. While that might be illustrative or even merely amusingly ironic to some, it would be best avoided. |
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yngwin
Retired Dev
Joined: 19 Dec 2002
Posts: 4572
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| desultory wrote: | | yngwin wrote: | | I wasn't trying to give a blow-by-blow rebuttal. I just stated the obvious: that you are spreading lies, once again. |
You are free to attack an argument, not the user behind it. |
But attacking developers is fine?
| desultory wrote: | | yngwin wrote: | | Calling our developers "neo-fascist asshats" is self-evidently offensive. To deny this is either stupid or misleading. |
As you have already been told, referring to a specific subset in a manner consistent with their behavior is not offensive to a rational observer. |
But to call out a user for his behaviour is? Please apply some consistency here.
| desultory wrote: | | Or was that deliberately meant to be an ad hominem attack against site staff, specifically me? |
No, it was purely aimed at steveL.
| desultory wrote: | | Without specifically citing, other, instances this topic is edging toward locking, or at least splitting, given the tone that some are taking. While that might be illustrative or even merely amusingly ironic to some, it would be best avoided. |
I think it would be a good idea to split off the ranting and subsequent reactions, starting from https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7741114.html#7741114
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desultory
Bodhisattva
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 9410
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| Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| yngwin wrote: | | But attacking developers is fine? |
His statement was, in reference to being effectively driven from various communications channels by overwrought claims of offenses by individuals who were themselves doing rather worse than the offenses they ascribed to him: | stevel wrote: | | I'll just ignore the neo-fascist (an entirely accurate description imo) asshats instead. |
To summarize the ensuing events:
- You filed a report stating that "It is definitely against the Code of Conduct to call Gentoo developers neo-fascist asshats." While ignoring the factual basis for that characterization.
- His phrasing was discussed with him in private.
- You filed a complaint with ComRel.
- You presented your case, and for the most part I presented the counterargument.
- ComRel decided to take no actions of its own in regard to your complaint. You know the actual phrasing of their response, so you know that I am understating this part.
- You replied to their decision with a statement that you are in fact not abiding by now.
- He was never, during the entire time the matter was before ComRel properly notified that such a complaint was pending.
- You persist in harassing him pursuant to a complaint which has been resolved to the satisfaction of all bodies thusfar appealed to.
| yngwin wrote: | | But to call out a user for his behaviour is? Please apply some consistency here. |
You taking it upon yourself to "call out a user" for some kind of impromptu vigilante pillory, is offensive to at very least decorum if not basic social order and even reason itself. You are not Batman, and even if you were, this is not Gotham.
| yngwin wrote: | | No, it was purely aimed at steveL. |
Which is better in exactly what way?
That post is no more off topic than: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7742958.html#7742958. Which, aside from the first two sentences, seems to be very much on topic. It is from there that things begin to notably deteriorate, driven by your posts. Please, stop making and feeding flames. |
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pilla
Bodhisattva
Joined: 07 Aug 2002
Posts: 7729
Location: Underworld
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| Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 1:57 am Post subject: |
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desultory, you omitted the part where yngwin decided to quote part of my reply out of context to make his case stronger in front of Comrel.
I see a trend here.
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krinn
Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 7470
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| Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| desultory wrote: |
[*]You filed a complaint with ComRel.
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Didn't knew it goes upto ComRel for that, that's something we should had been aware of, as of course a vs b in comrel might explains more a or b futher actions/animosity, and would put in reader eyes a warning some personal issue is certainly hidden behind.
ps: the batman/gotham reply is in my eyes, store in the "genius level" category desultory  |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| yngwin wrote: | | I just stated the obvious: that you are spreading lies, once again. |
Please stipulate precisely what I have said that is "a lie".
Previously when you had a warped idea of how Gentoo operates, it took ages to get you to accept it.
ATM, all I'm reading is more of the same.
Now we have the new meme that "this is all one community", but you require special treatment for developers in every medium.
According to two devs now, there is no developer subculture, despite the self-evident fact that developers both form a small clique of users, and that developer media and their problems are what led to both the original Community CoC, and the developer-only Council CoC you and others want to bash users with.
Really this whole sub-thread of yours is a massive diversion from the real issues, and a rehash of the linked thread above. You don't want to deal with how to address issues when they come up, which is a non-technical matter, only dream up more restrictions you can use against users.
"Blame the users" is a terrible way to conduct yourselves, if you are working in any sort of software development. |
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desultory
Bodhisattva
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
Posts: 9410
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| Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| krinn wrote: | | Didn't knew it goes upto ComRel for that, that's something we should had been aware of, as of course a vs b in comrel might explains more a or b futher actions/animosity, and would put in reader eyes a warning some personal issue is certainly hidden behind. |
There are differing opinions on quite how it is supposed to work, but in practice none of the incarnations of any of the *Rel teams has actually made any requests of the forums team with regard to enforcement actions.
| krinn wrote: | | ps: the batman/gotham reply is in my eyes, store in the "genius level" category desultory |
Thanks. |
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desultory
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