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Atheist invents god, freaks out over Pascal's Wager
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richk449
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:59 am    Post subject: Atheist invents god, freaks out over Pascal's Wager Reply with quote

Every once in a while, I come across something that I just can't share with any real people, so I have to post it here.

Today is that day. Apparently, there is a forum of "rationalists". The rationalists are very concerned with what happens after the singularity (Artificial Intelligence (AI) created with such intelligence that man is no longer king). Because conventional forms of rationality give surprising results when faced with some weird corner cases, these folks invented a new definition of rationality. Then they invented a new philosophical decision theory (Timeless Decision Theory), defining how one should behave to meet the requirements for rationality.

All perfectly reasonable; at least no less reasonable than posting here. But then someone (Roko, specifically) took all those developments (new rationality, new decision theory, etc.) and crafted a thought experiment along the lines of Pascal's Wager (since the cost is low, and the benefit high, one should believe in god), except with AI in the place of God. The though experiment includes the AI creating simulations of you, and torturing those simulations, which is apparently supposed to be just as bad as torturing you. And when the guy who runs the forum found out, he freaked out. Because apparently, if one had never heard of the thought experiment, he couldn't be punished for not believing* in the AI. But once it was posted, anyone who read it was at risk for having simulations of themselves tortured in the future by the AI because the person in the past (today) didn't behave the way the (not yet created) AI wanted. So the forum mod deleted the posts, and banned any discussion of the topic, termed Roko's Basilisk.

* It is not actually believing, but devoting ones life to the service of the AI, but close enough, and simpler to write.

So on the one hand, I love that these guys are taking ideas seriously. But on the other hand, this is really more along the lines of the Raelians than a serious group.

Here is a Slate article which does a good job introducing the subject: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2014/07/roko_s_basilisk_the_most_terrifying_thought_experiment_of_all_time.single.html


Last edited by richk449 on Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:10 am; edited 3 times in total
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pjp
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given your description, I don't see how someone "invented" god. Within context of the forum, I suppose the topic is worthy of discussion, but I don't understand a reaction, never mind the reaction of banning and locking the thread. Did the moderator believe someone was actually being tortured, or there was some "credible" threat of torture? :?
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richk449
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Given your description, I don't see how someone "invented" god. Within context of the forum, I suppose the topic is worthy of discussion, but I don't understand a reaction, never mind the reaction of banning and locking the thread. Did the moderator believe someone was actually being tortured, or there was some "credible" threat of torture? :?

The moderator has since stated that (1) he shouldn't have banned the post, (2) that he doesn't believe that the thought experiment will actually lead to torture, but (3) he does think that similar thought experiments along the same lines could lead to torture by a to-be-created AI-God. Also note that it is not just torture, but eternal torture, since the AI first creates a version of your brain in something more permanent than your body, then proceeds to torture the immortal you.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
he does think that similar thought experiments along the same lines could lead to torture by a to-be-created AI-God. Also note that it is not just torture, but eternal torture, since the AI first creates a version of your brain in something more permanent than your body, then proceeds to torture the immortal you.
Well, it wouldn't be me. That aside, wow. Even if it were some day possible, I can't imagine the record of those posts or discussions would survive to be reference material for the inventor.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think they don't like Roko's basilisk because it shows them the futility of their efforts and beliefs. No wonder some got their heads spinning and minds worrying. Losing faith and succumbing into fatalism just tends to work that way.

I think that for them there is no need to discuss Roko's basilisk - the Christians don't talk about the possibility of God being evil either, nor do the muslims or probably any religion. "The rokoists" or "the basiliskists" or whatever are the equivalent of a medieval Christian self-flagellant movement. Not constructive at all, since the flagellants thought that the end is so nigh (Roko's basilisk will catch them anyway in the future) that nothing can be done about it - except damage self immediately to show subservience or something.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:36 am    Post subject: Re: Atheist invents god, freaks out over Pascal's Wager Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
if one had never heard of the thought experiment, he couldn't be punished for not believing* in the AI. But once it was posted, anyone who read it was at risk for having simulations of themselves tortured in the future by the AI because the person in the past (today) didn't behave the way the (not yet created) AI wanted.

ZOMG! Quick, kill all the butterflies, so that one of them can never cause the collapse of the Brooklyn Bridge!!! :lol: :lol:

If only Ushpia hadn't conjectured back in 2,300 BCE about putting out people's eyes to make them loyal to him -- or if somebody had smashed that clay tablet, eradicating the Babylonian cuneiform record of the thought -- then the Spanish Inquisition, Witch Hunts, and Holocaust never would have happened!

I think this guy's brain has a bug in its loop optimization algorithms.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On episode 4 of the latest season of Silicon Valley, Roko's Basilisk was obliquely referenced. Of course, in typical Mike Judge fashion, he then went on to beat the joke into the ground on episode 5, making it part of the plot, and mentioning it by name.

Episode 4 was actually a pretty good one - the main plot about outing Christians in silicon valley was well done.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bones McCracker wrote:
And?

And I want everyone to acknowledge how awesome I am, for knowing about this before it went mainstream.

I thought that was obvious?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
. . . eternal torture, since the AI first creates a version of your brain in something more permanent than your body, then proceeds to torture the immortal you.


Ever watch Black Mirror? Spoiler alert there is an entire episode dedicated to this concept. I'd wager a bet that it aired before said moderator "came up with the concept".
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
And?

And I want everyone to acknowledge how awesome I am, for knowing about this before it went mainstream.

I thought that was obvious?

You are truly awesome. A veritable Nostradamus among nostradami.
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The ratbrain in me : I can only go forward and that's it.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
And?

And I want everyone to acknowledge how awesome I am, for knowing about this before it went mainstream.

I thought that was obvious?
Don't worry. We already know how awesome you are!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And, if it is a simulation being tortured, the AI could enable CONFIG_HPET and CONFIG_DYNTICKS and torture you for a million years in just seconds!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only feel ok with giving this youtube vid from Isaac Arthur / Digital Death to this thread.

The eternal torture? Sure. Just check out Carbon Alterd/Netflix. Then all is onboard! La di daa...
But that just is an apertiser to Isaac vid. Where you as an IT-supporter wants to kill yourself, just to wake up in a backup of yourself...for a billion years or more.
I am just saying, we should have covered this topic way back when _I_ made a special tread. You guys sucks!
I am not angry...When I am, I am sarcastic and ill willy, and probably shitty at it. This was intentional..... Suddenly I feel like a pink shirted swede. Oh well...
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol, what is this all about? as an atheist myself, i do not believe in anything, not even that i do not believe in god thing, why do i have to believe there is no god where there is no god anyway? what is this idea of believing in there is no god, when there is no god at all? so when i say i believe there is no god, there is no god, i do not have to say i believe there is no god, it is a fact, i do not have to believe, the truth is already there, my believing does not change the fact that there is no god, blah blah blah. whatever, confusing me already. lol, very confusing.

do you know what i mean?

nevermind, my way is not your way, your way is not my way, why do not have to force my way upon you? vice versa. meh, my english sucks, end of my talking....... :oops:
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

skyfolly wrote:
lol, what is this all about? as an atheist myself, i do not believe in anything, not even that i do not believe in god thing, why do i have to believe there is no god where there is no god anyway? what is this idea of believing in there is no god, when there is no god at all? so when i say i believe there is no god, there is no god, i do not have to say i believe there is no god, it is a fact, i do not have to believe, the truth is already there, my believing does not change the fact that there is no god, blah blah blah. whatever, confusing me already. lol, very confusing.

do you know what i mean?

nevermind, my way is not your way, your way is not my way, why do not have to force my way upon you? vice versa. meh, my english sucks, end of my talking....... :oops:

Because:

1. Socrates said, the unexamined life.is not worth living

2. Hume said proper skepticism is based on inductive reasoning.

We don't make confident, rational decisions about the unobserved based upon denial or wilful ignorance but upon such informed skepticism.
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The human thought: I cannot win.
The ratbrain in me : I can only go forward and that's it.
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richk449
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
richk449 wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
And?

And I want everyone to acknowledge how awesome I am, for knowing about this before it went mainstream.

I thought that was obvious?
Don't worry. We already know how awesome you are!

Hmmm, cleverly worded. :D
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
Old School wrote:
richk449 wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
And?

And I want everyone to acknowledge how awesome I am, for knowing about this before it went mainstream.

I thought that was obvious?
Don't worry. We already know how awesome you are!

Hmmm, cleverly worded. :D

I assumed he was just being nice.
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patrix_neo wrote:
The human thought: I cannot win.
The ratbrain in me : I can only go forward and that's it.
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

richk449 wrote:
Old School wrote:
richk449 wrote:
Bones McCracker wrote:
And?

And I want everyone to acknowledge how awesome I am, for knowing about this before it went mainstream.

I thought that was obvious?
Don't worry. We already know how awesome you are!

Hmmm, cleverly worded. :D

:wink:

Bones wrote:
I assumed he was just being nice.

Hey, I'm a nice guy. 8)
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