Can I stay with GTK+2?

Message

ONEEYEMAN · Post by **ONEEYEMAN** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:53 am

Hi, ALL,
It looks like I don't have much of a choice but to upgrade to GTK+3/GNOME3.

IgorReinCloud igor # emerge -pvuD world

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!

!!! Multiple package instances within a single package slot have been pulled
!!! into the dependency graph, resulting in a slot conflict:

gnome-extra/evolution-data-server:0

  (gnome-extra/evolution-data-server-3.10.4::gentoo, ebuild scheduled for merge) pulled in by
    (no parents that aren't satisfied by other packages in this slot)

  (gnome-extra/evolution-data-server-2.32.3-r3::gentoo, installed) pulled in by
    <gnome-extra/evolution-data-server-3.6 required by (dev-python/evolution-python-2.32.0::gentoo, installed)

dev-libs/libgdata:0

  (dev-libs/libgdata-0.14.1::gentoo, ebuild scheduled for merge) pulled in by
    (no parents that aren't satisfied by other packages in this slot)

  (dev-libs/libgdata-0.8.1-r2::gentoo, installed) pulled in by
    >=dev-libs/libgdata-0.6.3:0/0= required by (gnome-extra/evolution-data-server-2.32.3-r3::gentoo, installed)

dev-libs/libgweather:2

  (dev-libs/libgweather-3.10.2::gentoo, ebuild scheduled for merge) pulled in by
    (no parents that aren't satisfied by other packages in this slot)

  (dev-libs/libgweather-2.30.3::gentoo, installed) pulled in by
    <dev-libs/libgweather-2.91:2 required by (gnome-extra/evolution-data-server-2.32.3-r3::gentoo, installed)

media-libs/libcanberra:0

  (media-libs/libcanberra-0.30-r1::gentoo, installed) pulled in by
    (no parents that aren't satisfied by other packages in this slot)

  (media-libs/libcanberra-0.30-r1::gentoo, ebuild scheduled for merge) pulled in by
    >=media-libs/libcanberra-0.13[gtk3] required by (gnome-base/gnome-control-center-3.10.3::gentoo, ebuild scheduled for merge)


It may be possible to solve this problem by using package.mask to
prevent one of those packages from being selected. However, it is also
possible that conflicting dependencies exist such that they are
impossible to satisfy simultaneously.  If such a conflict exists in
the dependencies of two different packages, then those packages can
not be installed simultaneously.

For more information, see MASKED PACKAGES section in the emerge man
page or refer to the Gentoo Handbook.


The following USE changes are necessary to proceed:
 (see "package.use" in the portage(5) man page for more details)
# required by gnome-base/gnome-control-center-3.10.3
# required by gnome-extra/hamster-applet-2.32.1-r1
# required by @selected
# required by @world (argument)
>=media-libs/libcanberra-0.30-r1 gtk3

!!! The ebuild selected to satisfy ">=app-i18n/ibus-1.5.2" has unmet requirements.
- app-i18n/ibus-1.5.5::gentoo USE="X gtk introspection nls python -deprecated -gconf -gtk3 -test -vala -wayland" ABI_X86="64" PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET="python2_7" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7"

  The following REQUIRED_USE flag constraints are unsatisfied:
    python? ( any-of ( deprecated ( gtk3 introspection ) ) )

  The above constraints are a subset of the following complete expression:
    any-of ( gtk gtk3 X ) deprecated? ( python ) python? ( python_single_target_python2_7? ( python_targets_python2_7 ) exactly-one-of ( python_single_target_python2_7 ) any-of ( deprecated ( gtk3 introspection ) ) )

(dependency required by "gnome-base/gnome-control-center-3.10.3[i18n]" [ebuild])
(dependency required by "gnome-extra/hamster-applet-2.32.1-r1" [installed])
(dependency required by "@selected" [set])
(dependency required by "@world" [argument])

Thank you.

Post by **asturm** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:01 am

3 threads?

ONEEYEMAN · Post by **ONEEYEMAN** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:55 am

And different subject...

Thank you.

i92guboj · Post by **i92guboj** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:10 am

I guess the answer depends on what software you actually use.

I have managed to stay out of gtk+3 for now. To that purpose, the procedure can be resumed as follows:

mask any >=3.x gnome package, so that portage will preffer 2.x versions when available
overlay and modify dependencies (and maybe USEs and build options) for the few gtk+ packages that force gtk+3 when it's not really needed (i.e. bluefish, evince, and some xfce package(s) I don't remember right now
be creative when reading the emerge -av output, ask here if needed

Up to now, it hasn't been difficult to fix the few issues that arise here and there. But I expect this to become only worse. I can't tell you when it will be impossible to stay in gtk+2 though. But I will as long as it's possible.

In you case, since you are using a heavily integrated gnome component (evolution) the thing might be more difficult. A good starting point would be to add this line in your package.mask

>=gnome-base/gnome-control-center-3

ONEEYEMAN · Post by **ONEEYEMAN** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:27 am

Hi, i92guboj,
I don't use it, it was installed along with GNOME initially.

Can I simply uninstall it?

Thank you.

i92guboj · Post by **i92guboj** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:31 am

ONEEYEMAN wrote:Hi, i92guboj,
I don't use it, it was installed along with GNOME initially.

Can I simply uninstall it?

Thank you.

I don't use gnome, so I can't really comment on that.

I remember that in the past there was an USE flag called "eds" or something like that (standing for "evolution data server"). It used to be possible to install gnome without evolution by disabling that. But I have no idea if that still applies, if the flag exists or if it's still named the same way.

If not, just mask any evolution related >=3.x package and you should still be able to live with gtk+2, I guess.

schorsch_76 · Post by **schorsch_76** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:55 am

I have masked >=gtk-3.0 and new "fancy" stuff. I use just "oldschool" software. (DE = i3wm, xterm, vim and so on). I can easily live without gtk3 and gnome. It depends on your needs.

steveL · Post by **steveL** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:56 am

schorsch_76 wrote:I have masked >=gtk-3.0 and new "fancy" stuff. I use just "oldschool" software. (DE = i3wm, xterm, vim and so on). I can easily live without gtk3 and gnome. It depends on your needs.

Does gtk-3 itself have heavy or whacky (aka systemdbug) chain dependencies, or is it ok just to mask gnome3 packages?

i92guboj · Post by **i92guboj** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:26 pm

Last time I checked, you could just emerge bluefish or evince and it would install gtk+3 and a few other things, but nothing truly evil beyond that. I have no idea if that has changed lately though.

SamuliSuominen · Post by **SamuliSuominen** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:41 pm

seems counterintuitive. i'm actively working towards pushing Xfce and everything Xfce is using to GTK+-3 (which is an upgrade over GTK+-2, and only slotted because not everything can be ported at the same time). actively refusing any bugs that restore support for GTK+-2 if there is no feature loss by using GTK+-3.

schorsch_76 · Post by **schorsch_76** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:13 pm

steveL wrote:
schorsch_76 wrote:I have masked >=gtk-3.0 and new "fancy" stuff. I use just "oldschool" software. (DE = i3wm, xterm, vim and so on). I can easily live without gtk3 and gnome. It depends on your needs.
Does gtk-3 itself have heavy or whacky (aka systemdbug) chain dependencies, or is it ok just to mask gnome3 packages?

The reason is to keep all of L.P. out of my box. I consider gtk3+ hostile. If gnome 3 depends on gtk3 and i mask gtk3, gnome can not be installed! Annon-e-moose made a few days a joke, that gtk might in the future depend on systemd, my believe is this is coming to us from upstream.

My masks are:

Code: Select all

cat /etc/portage/package.mask/gtk 
>=x11-libs/gtk+-3.0.0
>=x11-libs/libwnck-3.0.0 

cat /etc/portage/package.mask/systemd 
# dump GNOME and anything else that has this as a hard dependency at any version
sys-apps/systemd

ls /etc/portage/package.mask/
gtk  systemd

My profile is 3 (desktop) but i have some use flags disabled in make.conf

Code: Select all

# These are the USE flags that were used in addition to what is provided by the
# profile used for building.
USE="bindist mmx sse sse2 gpg smtp 
    -bluetooth -semantic-desktop -plasma -kde 
    -gnome -systemd -dbus -cups -java 
    -gtk -gtk3 -libcanberra -libnotify 
    -avahi -consolekit -udisks -pulseaudio 
    -policykit -upower -udev -cdda -zeroconf"

Especially canberra and libnotify pulls in L.P. stuff. The other one should be obvious. My rule of thumb is "Current gcc, kernel, X and development tools but oldschool X without Lennart on the disk".

Tractor Girl · Post by **Tractor Girl** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:28 pm

Is there a way to emerge gtk+:3 without pulling in dbus?

Anon-E-moose · Post by **Anon-E-moose** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:06 pm

Tractor Girl wrote:Is there a way to emerge gtk+:3 without pulling in dbus?

I'm running gtk 3.4.4 (higher masked) without dbus being pulled in
it looks like gtk 3.10* and higher does pull in gdbus (which probably pulls in dbus)

I doubt it will be too much longer before systemd will be required to emerge gtk3.

Tractor Girl · Post by **Tractor Girl** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:58 pm

I'm running gtk 3.4.4 (higher masked) without dbus being pulled in
it looks like gtk 3.10* and higher does pull in gdbus (which probably pulls in dbus)

Indeed, but in that case there's not much sense in switching from gtk+:2, cause 3.4.4 will probably be dropped from the tree sooner than :2
Anyway I fear of the future. Like you said gtk3 will probably be pulling in l.p. crap and more of this dbus style good stuff.
May I ask what is your emergency plan for such situation?

Anon-E-moose · Post by **Anon-E-moose** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:19 am

Tractor Girl wrote:May I ask what is your emergency plan for such situation?

I've pulled in the 3.4.4 ebuild into my local directory and blocked anything higher.
If and when something requires a higher version, then I'll either decide not to upgrade that package or seek alternatives.

I only have one package that needs gtk3 at the moment (usbview) and I'm debating getting rid of that
and just blocking anything depending on gtk3.

I refuse to be pushed by subtle or not so subtle pressure of any RH products.

Ant P. · Post by **Ant P.** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:39 am

You need to be more proactive or this damage will keep spreading. Don't just uninstall/mask the software, tell the upstream projects moving away from GTK+2 to consider a stable/efficient/less-dogmatic platform like Qt or EFL.

mv · Post by mv » Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:04 am

ssuominen wrote:actively refusing any bugs that restore support for GTK+-2 if there is no feature loss by using GTK+-3.

This is causing a lot of work for many users who do not want to switch.
There are good reasons for not wanting to switch: The mentioned dependencies which presumably will artificially be built into gtk+-3 are only one. Others are that many projects will probably never switch, so that there is no point in switching when you need gtk+-2 in parallel anyway. In fact, as very often with gnome related stuff, it seems to me that the main "progress" of the switch gtk-2 -> gtk-3 is by removing a lot of functionality without any substitute (the major reason why many projects wlil never switch: They would practically need to be completely rewritten or drop essentail stuff as well)

SamuliSuominen · Post by **SamuliSuominen** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:31 am

mv wrote:
ssuominen wrote:actively refusing any bugs that restore support for GTK+-2 if there is no feature loss by using GTK+-3.
This is causing a lot of work for many users who do not want to switch.
There are good reasons for not wanting to switch: The mentioned dependencies which presumably will artificially be built into gtk+-3 are only one. Others are that many projects will probably never switch, so that there is no point in switching when you need gtk+-2 in parallel anyway. In fact, as very often with gnome related stuff, it seems to me that the main "progress" of the switch gtk-2 -> gtk-3 is by removing a lot of functionality without any substitute (the major reason why many projects wlil never switch: They would practically need to be completely rewritten or drop essentail stuff as well)

It seems to me people are wasting huge amount of time trying to stick with some old theme that only covers old version of the toolkit, and because of that, talk about "switching"

It's not about "switching" at all because you can have mixed GTK+-2 and GTK+-3 desktop and have a unified look in them with correct themes like Adwaita, Greybird, Zukitwo, gtk-engines-xfce:2 and :3, and so forth
The themes that only cover GTK+-2 are now obsolete, and will be removed from tree just like old GTK+-1 themes were removed in their time, this is in fact a bit overdue, and is propably the reason for why people are confused

There are of course valid cases where it makes sense to keep GTK+-2 like eg. in www-client/midori where it's required to use GTK+-2 to be able to use GTK+-2 plug-in(s) without webkit2 layer, like adobe-flash, and special USE="deprecated" is available for it

Gentoo is about choice, but it's about choice when it makes sense, we don't provide USE flags for packages to select use between eg. GStreamer 0.10 and 1.0 either, because 1.0 is an upgrade over 0.10, and the fact that upstream has been friendly
enough to allow parallel installation of them, is for the migration period

mv · Post by mv » Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:09 am

ssuominen wrote:trying to stick with some old theme

I don't care about "theme"s or how some buttons look like.
There is quite some software which needs gtk+:2 and which will never be upgraded. So gtk+:2 will be needed on many machines still for many years, maybe forever. Why should all users of these machines be forced to install gtk+:3 (and all its new dependencies like at-spi2-* and god knows what in the future) when they only have a few packages which work perfectly fine with gtk+:2, and upstream of that packages supports gtk+:2?
It is a different thing to not write patches if it is not supported by upstream; but actively removing available choice in the ebuilds from the users...?
(Happening e.g. in media-gfx/pqiv which is currently the only package for me which would force me to install gtk+:3 unnecessarily if there would not be a patched ebuild in the mv overlays; but you sound as if you want to make this happen for more ebuidls.)

we don't provide USE flags for packages to select use between eg. GStreamer 0.10 and 1.0 either

The situation is not comparable. I am not familiar with GStreamer, but I guess that 1.0 is a real progress over 0.10 while this is arguable (to say the least) for gtk-2 -> gtk-3, and for this reason some projects refuse to switch.

For a better comparison consider python-3*, although python-3 dependencies are not severe: If there is at least one package installed requiring python-2*, it makes no sense to install python-3 (unless you have other reasons, e.g. if you program in python). Of course, if you need at least one package which requires python-3*, your choice is over, but it is not forced where it is not necessary. Once, all packages do support python-3* and one thinks slowly about deprecation of python-2*, then it makes sense to think about deprecation of python-2 support even if it should be supported by upstream. I cannot predict whether this will ever happen for python-2 - I hope that I can get rid of python-2 eventually and then will happily install python-3 - but for gtk:2 it is a different situation (since some packages are certainly never going to upgrade for various reasons).

Anon-E-moose · Post by **Anon-E-moose** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:20 am

Interestingly I just modified usbview-2.0 to use gtk2 instead of 3 and just uninstalled gtk3.
It was only about 4 places, and the only reason for those was to force users to go to gtk3 instead of 2. Thanks Greg

I use lxde, and they are going to stick with gtk2, including fixes if needed and have no plans to go to gtk3.
They are working on a qt version instead of moving to gtk3. Since it would take a considerable rewrite either way, according to them.

These (old, outdated, yada-yada-yada pronouncements) sound very much like the bad mouthing that was done when eudev
started being offered as an alternative to udev. And despite the promises of those maintaining udev, the handwriting is on
the wall that without eudev, there would be no choice but to go the systemd route. So pardon me if I don't trust the whole
gtk3 is the wave of the future babbling nonsense, since it's being driven by the same corporate entity.

Post by **asturm** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:42 am

Anon-E-moose wrote:I use lxde, and they are going to stick with gtk2, including fixes if needed and have no plans to go to gtk3.
They are working on a qt version instead of moving to gtk3. Since it would take a considerable rewrite either way, according to them.

LXQt is there already. And many other projects are working on Qt-ports instead of switching over to gtk3.

Anon-E-moose wrote:These (old, outdated, yada-yada-yada pronouncements) sound very much like the bad mouthing that was done when eudev
started being offered as an alternative to udev. And despite the promises of those maintaining udev, the handwriting is on
the wall that without eudev, there would be no choice but to go the systemd route.

Why, no, udev is working just fine right now. And eudev has yet to prove that it could live on its own (without an upstream to pull from).

steveL · Post by **steveL** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:46 am

schorsch_76 wrote:
steveL wrote:Does gtk-3 itself have heavy or whacky (aka systemdbug) chain dependencies, or is it ok just to mask gnome3 packages?
The reason is to keep all of L.P. out of my box. I consider gtk3+ hostile. If gnome 3 depends on gtk3 and i mask gtk3, gnome can not be installed! Anon-e-moose made a few days a joke, that gtk might in the future depend on systemd, my believe is this is coming to us from upstream.

Heh, well I'm all in favour of keeping LP-insanity off my machine; kde-misc/kde-gtk-config depends on gtk+:3 here, so I've masked 3.10+ and gnome-control-center-3 for now, as well as systemd ofc, and I'll see what happens when I get round to upgrading. I'm going to have to stop qt-mysql getting pulled in as well, istr. (Why oh why one would burden every install of your DE with a full-blown database-server is beyond me.)

My profile is 3 (desktop) but i have some use flags disabled in make.conf
Code: Select all
# These are the USE flags that were used in addition to what is provided by the
# profile used for building.
USE="bindist mmx sse sse2 gpg smtp 
    -bluetooth -semantic-desktop -plasma -kde 
    -gnome -systemd -dbus -cups -java 
    -gtk -gtk3 -libcanberra -libnotify 
    -avahi -consolekit -udisks -pulseaudio 
    -policykit -upower -udev -cdda -zeroconf"
Especially canberra and libnotify pulls in L.P. stuff. The other one should be obvious. My rule of thumb is "Current gcc, kernel, X and development tools but oldschool X without Lennart on the disk".

Cheers, I'll add a couple of those to mine.

Anon-E-moose wrote:I'm running gtk 3.4.4 (higher masked) without dbus being pulled in
it looks like gtk 3.10* and higher does pull in gdbus (which probably pulls in dbus)

I doubt it will be too much longer before systemd will be required to emerge gtk3.

Yeah have to agree. One thing though; what does Mate (Cinnamon?) use?

Anon-E-moose · Post by **Anon-E-moose** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:49 am

Genstorm, I'm aware that lxqt is available, but it still needs, um, polishing IMO.

As far as udev the only reason that I mentioned it is it/was similar to the whole everyone
needs to move to the latest and greatest spiel that we've come to expect from certain quarters.
I'm not interested in debating it at this moment as this thread isn't really about that.

Edit to add: Nowhere in what you quoted did I say udev wasn't working.
Please leave the strawman arguments out of this.

Anon-E-moose · Post by **Anon-E-moose** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:54 am

steveL wrote:One thing though; what does Mate (Cinnamon?) use?

I'm not sure since I've long moved away from any variation of gnome but a quick google says that cinnamon is based on gtk3.
Not sure about mate, but since it's a fork, AFAIK, of gnome2 I would expect it to use gtk2, but don't quote me on that.

Post by **asturm** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:01 pm

Anon-E-moose wrote:I'm not interested in debating it at this moment as this thread isn't really about that.

And yet you will pop up in any thread where udev/systemd is mentioned (or you bring it up yourself)

Mate is porting over to gtk3 and wayland. Or dies trying.

So, in terms of DEs or WMs you are soon out of luck staying with gtk2 except if you are willing to maintain outdated packages yourself. Here it is still used by a few select applications (that hopefully will go Qt at some point in the future as well, erm, less hope for firefox though...)