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yagami
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 Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Dominique_71 wrote: | I think most peoples that don't know gentoo are thinking it is a distribution for specialists and hackers.
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There must be something wrong because that is what i was saying ! I just used the case of learning. That people that dont know Gentoo, think its only good for learning Linux.
And there is alot of cases of users that tried Gentoo to learn things and then moved to other distros.
Gentoo should'nt be / isnt about learning linux. |
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Yamakuzure
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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*sigh* And there are "a lot" of cases where people return to gentoo, leave arch, return to arch, leave ubuntu, return to ubuntu and so on and so forth etcetera pp.
So, what is actually your point? I don't seem to get it, really... 
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yagami
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Yamakuzure wrote: | *sigh* And there are "a lot" of cases where people return to gentoo, leave arch, return to arch, leave ubuntu, return to ubuntu and so on and so forth etcetera pp.
So, what is actually your point? I don't seem to get it, really... |
yes there are ... and i agree and i think we are mis understanding each other. I seem to not be able to make the point across, so i am sorry for the confusion.
Please carry on with the topic and disregard.. |
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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I agree, in general, with the statement that gentoo isn't a learning distro, it is simply a source based non-pre-built-binary distro
One can learn from any distro, and quite frankly to get the basics, a pre-built distro, RH, Ubuntu, etc is easier to start with
as they take care of setting up the system.
I can't say that gentoo is strictly for hobbists or those who like to tinker,
though it does have a certain element of those types of people that are attracted to it.
But even when I was using RH, many, many moons ago, I always pulled down the source rpms and would rebuild things myself.
But I started out in unix building gnu tools to go on and enhance many of the big name unix boxes that I worked on.
As far as the statement, that once one learns gentoo they'll never go back to a binary distro.
I've seen a number of people that have done exactly that for various reasons.
Just let it be that gentoo appeals to a certain group of people and live with that.
If people come looking on this forum for answers then give a proper one
rather than RTFM, which I see far too often. That sends the wrong message.
Just some thoughts. 
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Dominique_71
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| yagami wrote: | | Dominique_71 wrote: | I think most peoples that don't know gentoo are thinking it is a distribution for specialists and hackers.
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There must be something wrong because that is what i was saying ! I just used the case of learning. That people that dont know Gentoo, think its only good for learning Linux.
And there is alot of cases of users that tried Gentoo to learn things and then moved to other distros.
Gentoo should'nt be / isnt about learning linux. |
Maybe not for you, but you cannot generalize your case to anybody.
A big difference between GNU/Linux and the commercial OS is that with GNU/Linux, you got plenty of documenntation, when with the commercial OS, you must buy expensive books or courses. And Gentoo have one of the best documentation and community of all Linux distribution. So, you can not say Gentoo is not about learning linux. All distributions are about learning linux, but Gentoo, at the differences of many other distributions doesn't have a central management program.
As example, try Suse. It have Yast which is a wonderful software, but as soon you have to do something Yast cannot do or fail to do, most users are lost because Suse documentation is tailored to Yast and not to understand the underlaying system. It is the same issue with most other distributions, and I don't even talk about RedHat which doesn't even have a manual mode install when the automatic install is failing, at least the few times I try to install it. With the different computers I try to install redhat, the only one successful install I get was the exception that resulted into an early and repetitive boot panic.
That imply in case of trouble, you will be used to RTFM and you will know the bases with Gentoo, when with most other distributions, the only way to get out of troubles for many users will be to ask for support.
Recently, I buy my first laptop. I try several distributions, and at the exception of AROS which is not a linux distribution anyway, the only distribution I get up and running was gentoo. The generic kernels of binary distributions was confusing the hardware, which resulted in complete and random system freezes or unresponsive touchpad. On Gentoo, it was just to install the base system, make a dedicated kernel, install X, fvwm-crystal, a terminal and restart the PC to get it up and running.
Another issue where Gentoo is 100 times better than any binary distribution, is when using multiple repositories. It just work, when with the binary distributions, this is only a matter of time before you get into an unresolvable mess. This is why at the first place I shifted from Suse to Debian first, and to Gentoo a few months later.
So for me the pro of gentoo are:
dedicated kernel + tree + portage + doc + community
which result in:
more choices than in any other distribution + continuous flow of update (you will never reformat)
+ hardware stability, efficiency and consistency + software stability, efficiency and consistency, that as well on the short run than in the long run.
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Anon-E-moose
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Dominique_71 wrote: | | And Gentoo have one of the best documentation |
Actually the few times I've had to google to find something out, I found that Arch had better documentation, in general.
Having said that, gentoo does have good documentation.
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Yamakuzure
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | II can't say that gentoo is strictly for hobbists or those who like to tinker,
though it does have a certain element of those types of people that are attracted to it. |
Funny enough, that's my story. I started with gentoo in 2004 for the fun and tinkering, not to mention the learning part. Now, ten years after, gentoo is my main OS on both my companies laptop and desktop system. It is used for prime time only, here. (And that with mixing stable and keyworded packages, some even masked, some unmasked USE flags, live ebuilds and so on.)
I haven't had any major breakage keeping me off work for years, so my employer is quite happy with me. (Yes, I am officially allowed to use gentoo, there are only two rules here: A) The system you chose must enable you to do your work and B) it must not stand in your works way.)
On the other hand I have to add that I am a software developer for linux based software, so I am damn sure I know what I am doing. aaand I have "-ggdb" added to CFLAGS in my make.conf and "splitdebug" in my FEATURES var. Any non-developer shouldn't do that unless they wanted /usr/lib64/debug to grow by several GB.
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- "Tja" - German reaction to the apocalypse, nuclear war, an alien invasion or no bread in the house.
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steveL
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| ulenrich wrote: | @steveL, thank you for the step back of yours.
I really appreciate. We all should acknowledge the Gentoo user forums are not the battlefield. |
Indeed: and thank you for being so gracious.
| Quote: | | Openrc users can expect me as a systemd user pro choice: I really really feel lucky I am able to boot with openrc in the case my systemd installation produces a problematic boot I don't understand. I then simply can test with the other option. |
That is exactly what we are afraid of losing: the ability to swap things in and out, without having to fight the distro. You must see that Poettering et al have made it abundantly clear, that they see exactly that as contrary to their plans? Not just something to build, nor to ignore, but something actively to work against. I've lost count of the number of bugs I've read in last 3 years where they explicitly reject any attempt to make things interoperable, at a design-level, giving bogus reasons that are contrary to the intended purposes of the software.
| irc user wrote: | | "Sorry, we only support glibc" seems rather pitiful. Particularly for something that's trying to be about as fundamental to a Linux system as the libc. |
Their statements are perfectly clear, in contrast to the weasel words about being able to use udev without systemd when they were reassuring every one that the idiotic merger wouldn't change anything, and everyone would be able to use udev exactly as before. They intend one userland uber alles, citing BSD as the precedent, when everyone knows Linux has been developed under a very different model, and I'd argue that that is why it has been successful. When you have to make things work under varying circumstance, your code tends to be more robust.
So for me personally, the entire cry for "integration" sounds like nothing more than the whinging of amateur developers who've bitten off more than they can chew, and would rather "simplify" everything by establishing a proprietary-in-all-but-license monoculture. They read like kernel-rejects who couldn't hack not breaking userland, so now assume that because they're in userspace, they can break whatever they like. Years of problems for all of us have been the consequent, across various manically-started-and-then-dropped projects, while the users pick up the pieces, not the idiots who broke things in the first place.
What disincentive is there against breaking things, when you never have to deal with the mess? To my mind that's the biggest weakness, at a software level, of the whole binary commercial-distribution setup. "If it works on distroX, job done" as we're not paid to make it work elsewhere. If we're not careful, we'll sleepwalk into an awful mess, and the real talent will move on to another system. Meanwhile Linux userland will be unable to recover, since everything will be lumped in one massive project, with tight coupling, a mess of dependencies restricting user choice like libc and much higher, and no way to split it down, since the maintainers (who didn't originate most of the software we actually need from the mess) deliberately rejected any attempt to do just that for several years.
This is not about the kernel, so much. It's about what's left of the collaborative userspace development between distros, admins and end-users, that has brought Linux this far. The trend appears to be towards distros collaborating, and users doing what they're told.
| Quote: | | Also I have and I will advice any newcomer, who claims he wants to learn Linux by using Gentoo, he should begin with openrc. It is a transparent init system I was stunned about its simplicity, when I came from Debian sysv-insserv mess. |
Exactly: openrc was, and is, a progression on what came before. It's totally untrue to say that "init-systems were stagnating until systemd". Only the Linux bindists were, stuck on sysv-rc, clearly without any shell-scripting capability, and indeed without the nous to look around and see what else was available.
We can incrementally improve (upon) openrc, in turn, without throwing away all the other work, and indeed the ability to use other work at all.
| Quote: | | @steveL, a year ago you said the main horrible bad of systemd is its vertical_integration against all proven unix principles. Also I answered it may well be exactly this integration what application developers desire and what makes systemd sexy to them, it was the strong argument against systemd - as it is today even more: kdbus coming with all of the resulting security issues. |
Heh i'm glad you think it's an argument against systemd: so many people appear to think it's a good thing, it's quite bemusing to an old-time coder like me. Computing appears to have become 90% people who don't know very much at all about it, whereas when I grew up (back before the War..;) it was 90% people who were very much into it for its own sake, and at most 10% of management types trying to extract as much profit as possible from "data processing". It was quite boring, unless you were really into it, when it was everything.
Wrt "what app devs desire," like every other walled-garden, it's pleasant so long as you don't try to step outside.
| Quote: | | Every systemd user should be happy Gentoo is providing the choice! The new Gentoo Mate ebuilds are attracting me to install another Gentoo openrc partition. |
Hallelujah! ;p
This was a longer response, as you addressed me directly twice, and I wanted to respond to the higher-level issues you raised, hopefully not in a rant. It's the background context, to some of the reasons why some people will want to avoid systemd, and why they might be interested in Gentoo. I don't think we should shy away from that, nor vilify those people as some of us have been in the last 3 years; or we'll simply do the distro a disservice as they leave, taking bad impressions with them, and we would have been better off doing nothing.
As you said, everyone should be glad Gentoo is providing that choice, since it protects the long-term viability of the Linux ecosystem. |
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steveL
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| Anon-E-moose wrote: | Actually the few times I've had to google to find something out, I found that Arch had better documentation, in general.
Having said that, gentoo does have good documentation. |
Yeah I've been noticing recently that the arch wiki is really good, and I've ended up bookmarking their pages as I stumble across them.
Hopefully over time the gentoo-wiki will get there too (it's already off to a good start.) Now that it's in-house, we won't ever lose the collaborative base again. |
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Dominique_71
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | This is not about the kernel, so much. It's about what's left of the collaborative userspace development between distros, admins and end-users, that has brought Linux this far. The trend appears to be towards distros collaborating, and users doing what they're told.
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As you said, everyone should be glad Gentoo is providing that choice, since it protects the long-term viability of the Linux ecosystem. |
You are 100 % right. A perfect example of that distros collaborating, and users doing what they're told, is the freedesktop xdg menu norm. It is 2 parts in it, the first is for the deskop files, the second one for the menu structure. Note that the desktop files must contain the categories used by the menu structure.
The result is a redundant norm which result into a real mess where no one desktop at the exception of fvwm-crystal, and no one distribution fully support it. The main reason of it is because the part of the menu structure norm is a mess which is very complicated and time consuming to implement. So, no one took the time to fully implement it. As a consequence, Debian continue to provide its own menu system, and most desktops and all other binary distributions provide a bunch of incomplete files to deal with the menu structure, but no one of them is able to fully support that norm.
As a consequence, all users, when they get plenty of software into one main menu category, will have to use time to move things around in their menu, with no guaranty it will survive a major desktop update. It is why I moved to fvwm-crystal at the first place. Fvwm-crystal was even able to add the xdg menu support to its existing menu system without breaking existing user customizations. And it's a complete amateur that done the job to implement the xdg support in fvwm-crystal.
What is very funny in fact, and as the way fvwm-crystal implement its application menu demonstrate it, is that only the part of the norm dealing with the desktop files is necessary to get a fully compliant xdg application menu. These files contains every thing needed for that. As a result, Fvwm-crystal doesn't use at all the menu structure files to get a fully compliant xdg application menu, and give us a fully compliant xdg menu on any linux distribution, that even if no xdg menu is installed. 
Sorry for the digression, but it demonstrate these guys are just not interested to get the job done, or to facilitate the life of their users and of other software developers. And that's not only the problem of the binary distributions, but also of Gnome and KDE. It is numerous emails on the freedsktop lists where folks from Gnome and KDE write things like "The others will have to follow us or die", and that especially now with the development of systemd.
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steveL
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Dominique_71 wrote: | | What is very funny in fact, and as the way fvwm-crystal implement its application menu demonstrate it, is that only the part of the norm dealing with the desktop files is necessary to get a fully compliant xdg application menu. These files contains every thing needed for that. As a result, Fvwm-crystal doesn't use at all the menu structure files to get a fully compliant xdg application menu, and give us a fully compliant xdg menu on any linux distribution, that even if no xdg menu is installed. |
Ouch: so all this time we've been suffering from crappy menus for no reason?! Grrr. You're right though it is funny, like much of this when you step back:
"It's the Keystone Coders, doing it again!" ;-)
Anyhow, it sounds like every DE should start doing that, and distros can drop the redundant files; if so, I'm all in favour, and I'll happily file a KDE bug about it.
Have fvwm written this up anywhere which you'd recommend, a simple explanation that I can link to in the bug? I've not looked at their specs very much; I find XML noxious, especially in UNIX system space. If the above suffices in your opinion for a desktop developer, I'll link your post. |
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Dominique_71
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:53 am Post subject: |
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fvwm-crystal use its own database system to build its application menu. It is explained here: Application Database. It can look a little bit complicated but is in fact very easy to use (it just work) and to customize (it is just to move/rename the files).
I made a wrapper script that can be launched from fvwm-crystal preferences menu. It check for the application provided desktop files. From that, it compare with the existing database files and create the missing ones into the user part of that database.
I also diverted from the norm, but all desktops do it. In the xdg norm, it is 3 media main categories: Audio, AudioVideo and Video. Fvwm-crystal use a main Multimedia category that contain only these 3 categories. In these 3 categories, you will find the corresponding applications with their corresponding additional categories. Most desktops, if not all, mix all these 3 main categories into one main category, which result into a 3 pages menu with everything mixed if you have a lot of multimedia applications and like big fonts/icons. In the Audio category, fvwm-crystal do also incorporate a few non normalized categories, that because if you have a pro audio setup, you just want them.
fvwm have fvwm-menu-desktop that can be used to build a xdg compliant menu into fvwm. But fvwm-crystal don't use it, the built-in menu system of fvwm-crystal is faster, more flexible and easier to customize. fvwm-menu-desktop is fully compliant with the xdg norm, that imply it use the menu structure files and the applications desktop files to build its menu. From my experience with fvwm-crystal, I begun to make a xdg menu with full support for the additional categories for fvwm-menu-desktop. I think it can be used with any xdg compliant desktop. For now, I am in the middle of the work. It is very time consuming because, due to the nature of that f. xml format, every single modification need to be tested one by one. Any help will be appreciated. You can find it here: fvwm-xdg-menu.
EDIT: Most Desktops want to make a menu specific to them. And most distributions do the same, as example Suse with its Yast menu. Most binary distributions are commercial enterprises, that imply I am doubtful you can get them to collaborate for a complete xdg menu that will work on any distribution. The same apply to the big desktops, they can collaborate to make the norm, but after they all do they own implementation. This is why I made my own. Anyway, good luck!
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666threesixes666
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:11 am Post subject: |
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agreed about a few things in this thread page. the in house wiki is starting to become AMAZING... some of our pages rival arch's straight up.... when i started working on the official wiki it was like a desert wasteland, and now its starting to come full circle. i banged out a sshguard wiki tonight locally because of finding a critical flaw in fail2ban's ip collecting regex resulting in false negatives. i forwarded warnings on arch wiki & wiki.gentoo.org about it on the articles. it was bad enough for me to report it directly upstream, i found in their documentation that it was/is a 4 year old bug.
i also hammered on this command some more for the irc folk tonight... https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Troubleshooting#Wrapping_things_together
a3li did an excellent job setting up the wiki. someone promote him.... |
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Dominique_71
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| steveL wrote: | Ouch: so all this time we've been suffering from crappy menus for no reason?! Grrr. You're right though it is funny, like much of this when you step back:
"It's the Keystone Coders, doing it again!" |
I didn't step back. That quote is not from me.
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Dominique_71
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Dominique_71 wrote: | | steveL wrote: | Ouch: so all this time we've been suffering from crappy menus for no reason?! Grrr. You're right though it is funny, like much of this when you step back:
"It's the Keystone Coders, doing it again!" |
I didn't step back. That quote is not from me. |
Globaly, the GNU/Linux community is at risk now. We have a bunch of big distros and big desktops that drive a move with applications like systemd, Gnome that depend on it, kde that will depend on it (I can be already the case with some parts of the devel branch), xfce that will follow that trend, wayland that is coming.
It is 2 parts with that. First wayland. X and all its extension is very complicated. That imply the work to make a complete compatibility layer will never be done, and many software using that extensions of X, and it is plenty of them including wm like fvwm or *box will just disappear, because their free-time developers have just other things to do than to port them to wayland.
Second systemd. As stated before
| Quote: | This is not about the kernel, so much. It's about what's left of the collaborative userspace development between distros, admins and end-users, that has brought Linux this far. The trend appears to be towards distros collaborating, and users doing what they're told.
...
As you said, everyone should be glad Gentoo is prov ariding that choice, since it protects the long-term viability of the Linux ecosystem. |
And to that we can add that the leading desktops are side by side with the distros. GNU/Linux have evolved a lot with time, and it is huge financial interest around GNU/Linux. 90 % of the intelligent devices (what is called embedded) use some kind of GNU/Linux software. Many distributions are multinational societies. And the big destops are also becoming societies with a lot of full time paid developer. That imply, as we are living into a capitalist society, they interests are not necessarily the same as the ones of the community. In one hand, they have done a lot to promote GNU/Linux and to drive the innovation, and that's a very good things. In the other hand, they don't give a penny about compatibility and the community: as long the software work for them, the others have to follow their trend or die.
What that imply today is that we risk a complete shift into the community with more and more free time developers doing something else (some of them I know have already moved or are planning to move to other OSs), GNU/Linux becoming more and more like the commercial OSs with users doing what they are told to do (like that xdg menu stuff, and many discussions at freedesktop.org demonstrate it), and I don't know how long a distribution like Gentoo can resist that trend if it continue.
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Dominique_71
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| 666threesixes666 wrote: | agreed about a few things in this thread page. the in house wiki is starting to become AMAZING... some of our pages rival arch's straight up.... when i started working on the official wiki it was like a desert wasteland, and now its starting to come full circle. ...
a3li did an excellent job setting up the wiki. someone promote him.... |
The desert was the result of the wiki crash it was a few years ago. I made a few small contributions to the new wiki when I get some time, and I am happy it begin take form and to have good contents.
Thanks to every one that contribute to it.
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biggerthanyours
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Dominique_71 wrote: |
It is 2 parts with that. First wayland. X and all its extension is very complicated. That imply the work to make a complete compatibility layer will never be done, and many software using that extensions of X, and it is plenty of them including wm like fvwm or *box will just disappear, because their free-time developers have just other things to do than to port them to wayland.
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The complexity of X and all it's extensions is exactly the reason why it should be dropped and redisigned from scratch. Although I don't think that wayland is the right solution, supporting X in its current state and further extending it is a dead end. X.org codebase is already almost impossible to maintain, and it gets worse every year.
Wayland guys say that it should not be that hard to implement a window manager as a plugin to weston, so I suppose most projects will get ported at some point. |
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yagami
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Globaly, the GNU/Linux community is at risk now. We have a bunch of big distros and big desktops that drive a move with applications like systemd, Gnome that depend on it, kde that will depend on it (I can be already the case with some parts of the devel branch), xfce that will follow that trend, wayland that is coming.
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Although i understand what you are saying, i dont personally see as at risk.
What we are at risk is of losing time, and eventually backtrack or not really move forward.
But i see as, although there is a rise of a more "commercial" open source, there is also a rise of "true freedom" open source. maybe just not proportional.
But currently the whole world is at a mayhem, with especially Microsoft very confused.
That is why, i always believed and will continue to believe, its essential to have competing projects and different solutions for the same problem.
Although i never actually used it or tested, i feel sorry for Upstart devs and sad for their "loss" to systemd. ( this last comment is not based on technical merit of upstart, which i am totally oblivious to upstart, but to having choice and different solutions available )
EDIT: replying from work actually made me not include the reason |
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depontius
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| biggerthanyours wrote: |
Wayland guys say that it should not be that hard to implement a window manager as a plugin to weston, so I suppose most projects will get ported at some point. |
I believe Wayland may well highlight better than most projects the divide between developers and fanbois. I've had "discussions" where fanbois called me a "tard" because I routinely export DISPLAY both at home and at work. Sometimes it seems like the fanbois portray Wayland as a revolution that's going to sweep ALL of the old X stuff off the table, to which I attempt to reply that you can't ignore your legacy, for which I receive derision.
Then you hear from Wayland developers, many of whom are X developers, and it's completely different. They understand legacy support. They understand the problems with X more intimately than most of us, because they own them. From the developers I get the perspective that Wayland is an evolution of X, more drastic because of the sheer quantity of cruft, but that they also plan for us not to lose capability. I'm satisfied.
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Dominique_71
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| biggerthanyours wrote: | | Dominique_71 wrote: |
It is 2 parts with that. First wayland. X and all its extension is very complicated. That imply the work to make a complete compatibility layer will never be done, and many software using that extensions of X, and it is plenty of them including wm like fvwm or *box will just disappear, because their free-time developers have just other things to do than to port them to wayland.
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The complexity of X and all it's extensions is exactly the reason why it should be dropped and redisigned from scratch. Although I don't think that wayland is the right solution, supporting X in its current state and further o have extending it is a dead end. X.org codebase is already almost impossible to maintain, and it gets worse every year. |
I understand that. It was not my point. And I also think to have the compositor included into the server is a good move.
| Quote: | | Wayland guys say that it should not be that hard to implement a window manager as a plugin to weston, so I suppose most projects will get ported at some point. |
That's a good news.
It is already a bling bling module in fvwm-crystal and an expose clone. So maybe we will get 3D support some day. 
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Dominique_71
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| depontius wrote: | | I believe Wayland may well highlight better than most projects the divide between developers and fanbois. I've had "discussions" where fanbois called me a "tard" because I routinely export DISPLAY both at home and at work. Sometimes it seems like the fanbois portray Wayland as a revolution that's going to sweep ALL of the old X stuff off the table, to which I attempt to reply that you can't ignore your legacy, for which I receive derision. |
You must tell them to try the Amiga OS. That's my legacy. It must be for that I never liked windows. On linux, we have e-uae to emulate the hardware. It is my reference for a good working OS: efficient, stable, powerful and simple at the same time. It provided a realtime preemptive and multitasking OS on 500 ko RAM in the eighties. In comparison, all the other OS are just bloated in one or several ways.
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steveL
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| Dominique_71 wrote: | | You must tell them to try the Amiga OS. That's my legacy. It must be for that I never liked windows. |
Heh for me it was RISC-OS. And no way can you tell me that was bloated ;) |
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