The {pro,anti}systemd meta-kvetch.

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PaulBredbury · Post by **PaulBredbury** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:36 pm

Topic: [topic=981256]When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd?[/topic]

Please rename thread to, "We hate SystemD & RH, Part 1001", and move to Off The Wall. Thanks

Reason: Tedious to see

PaulBredbury · Post by **PaulBredbury** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:37 pm

User: [profile=186861]Anon-E-moose[/profile]
Topic: [topic=983140]What should be my next linux (or other OS) journey?[/topic]
Post: [post]7502696[/post]
Reason: Never shuts up about SystemD, and how he dislikes it. *Ever*. Even in this, an unrelated thread.

Shamus397 · Post by **Shamus397** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:00 pm

PaulBredbury wrote:Topic: [topic=981256]When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd?[/topic]

Please rename thread to, "We hate SystemD & RH, Part 1001", and move to Off The Wall. Thanks

Reason: Tedious to see

Having read & participated the thread in question, I can safely say that it's not a "We hate systemd & Red Hat" thread, the discussion there has been surprisingly civil about a ridiculously inflammatory subject, including discussions of how to avoid systemd. Move it if you must, but nobody is forcing you to read it.

I might add that user yagami has been trying to stir the pot in that thread, yet all the replies to him have been civil and restrained.

PaulBredbury · Post by **PaulBredbury** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:26 pm

Shamus397 wrote:surprisingly boring about a ridiculously inflammatory subject

Fixed that for ya

Can I start a systemd topic, where people are forced to say useful things?

steveL · Post by **steveL** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:58 am

PaulBredbury wrote:Can I start a systemd topic, where people are forced to say useful things?

You can't force anyone to do anything in FLOSS, let alone discuss what you want, never mind how you want, but you know that right? ;) As for "useful" systemd discussion, that goes on all the time, as people run into problems with it.

By all means move it to Gentoo Chat, but not OTW please. It is a discussion about Gentoo itself, and what it's doing, on an area of concern to quite a few people.

There's enough "space" for many threads only of interest to a few, and this is clearly of interest to more than a few.

If you find it tedious, ignore it like the big boy you are. ;-)

Regards,
steveL.

PaulBredbury · Post by **PaulBredbury** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:13 am

I've been ignoring it for countless months, and countless pathetic systemd-bashing threads. They never end.

This used to be a good forum. But it's now just a systemd actionless-rant forum, and that's sad. I'd prefer to see the Moderators take a bit of action, to reduce the noise pollution.

Obligatory, to lighten the mood: SystemD suckz! Switch to busybox now.

Anon-E-moose · Post by **Anon-E-moose** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:32 pm

steveL wrote:If you find it tedious, ignore it

I think it's a real shame, nay a travesty of justice, that he's being forced to read threads he doesn't like.
Where's a superhero when we need one, or at least a power-ranger or two.

SamuliSuominen · Post by **SamuliSuominen** » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:48 pm

PaulBredbury wrote:I've been ignoring it for countless months, and countless pathetic systemd-bashing threads. They never end.

This used to be a good forum. But it's now just a systemd actionless-rant forum, and that's sad. I'd prefer to see the Moderators take a bit of action, to reduce the noise pollution.

Obligatory, to lighten the mood: SystemD suckz! Switch to busybox now.

+1

I suggested today at Freenode, #gentoo-forums, that we have one singular sticky locked thread for 'systemd and device managers' and then duplicate all this crap to it with a heavy hand.
I realize this is forums and people lie, but if we know they lie, do we need to let them?

desultory · Post by **desultory** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:26 am

ssuominen wrote:I suggested today at Freenode, #gentoo-forums, that we have one singular sticky locked thread for 'systemd and device managers' and then duplicate all this crap to it with a heavy hand.

Any suggestions for someone willing and able to write such a compendium of device managers, and do so in such a way as to not raise the ire of the various factions more than is already evident?

ssuominen wrote:I realize this is forums and people lie, but if we know they lie, do we need to let them?

Given the absolute wealth of information and disinformation promulgated both by those for and those against systemd as it is currently structured, both in management and software architecture; sorting through all of it would take a dedicated interested neutral party. Empirical research has shown such creatures to be approximately as common as the Purple Toed Loch Ness Monster in its native range in the Andes. Given that, we need to fall back to either uninterested neutral parties (who are by definition not interested) or to interested non-neutral parties (who will themselves "lie" in varying degrees and directions depending on where their interests are focused). Which, again, leaves us in the position of a certain famous individual with a lamp, and probably coming out looking as ridiculous for having tried.

I, naturally, encourage any who can prove me wrong to do so at their earliest convenience.

Split from "[topic=28820]Report violations, duplicates, misplaced posts, etc.[/topic]".

TomWij · Post by **TomWij** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:21 am

desultory wrote:I, naturally, encourage any who can prove me wrong to do so at their earliest convenience.

Under the assumption that there are sides, you can have each side summarize their side, if that there are people interested in both parties; it is up to the reader to consider whom speaks right or wrong. However, such approach will lead into categorization, and make the rolling snow ball effect seen here bigger; categorization is fundamentally wrong as we are a community, so, this cocktail mixture of (mis)information just gets the community drunk until we learn from drinking it...

666threesixes666 · Post by **666threesixes666** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:24 am

anti systemd people are anti choice. off with their heads.

khayyam · Post by **khayyam** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:57 am

desultory wrote:
ssuominen wrote:I realize this is forums and people lie, but if we know they lie, do we need to let them?
Given the absolute wealth of information and disinformation promulgated both by those for and those against systemd as it is currently structured, both in management and software architecture; sorting through all of it would take a dedicated interested neutral party. Empirical research has shown such creatures to be approximately as common as the Purple Toed Loch Ness Monster in its native range in the Andes.

desultory ... that's a variation of epistemic scepticism and its a flawed argument. Firstly, there is the impossible condition: a "purple toed neutral party", and secondly a failure to place the acquisition of knowledge as even possible by framing it as some absolute condition rather than an ongoing accumulation, approximation, etc.

desultory wrote:Given that, we need to fall back to either uninterested neutral parties (who are by definition not interested) or to interested non-neutral parties (who will themselves "lie" in varying degrees and directions depending on where their interests are focused). Which, again, leaves us in the position of a certain famous individual with a lamp, and probably coming out looking as ridiculous for having tried.

It might also leave you, like Diogenes, masturbating in the town square (as apocrypha has it), as again this search for the "honest man" has in it an impossible condition, and such a "light" is more a prop than any tool of enquiry.

desultory wrote:I, naturally, encourage any who can prove me wrong to do so at their earliest convenience.

I can prove with some level of confidence that although you have no idea that the floor that is supporting you may shortly give way and no longer do so, you will continue to act as though that may never happen as the Cartesian ability to "doubt everything" is an impossible prerequisite of (actionable) knowledge. If you were indeed capable of believing (not merely hypothetically projecting) that the floor *could* give way at any moment (and similar uncertainty wrt any and every phenomenon) you would be incapable of any action. Such a "proof" provides some opening for episteme, and as such some criteria for separation truth from lie however tenuous the resulting knowledge might be. QED

best ... khay

TomWij · Post by **TomWij** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:21 am

@khayyam: That's an amusing post to read. Congratulations on reaching 1337 posts; while we're at it, http://xkcd.com/1337 will be there any time soon...

PaulBredbury · Post by **PaulBredbury** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:58 am

desultory wrote:prove me wrong to do so at their earliest convenience.

You're letting the trolls take over

To see who the major trolls are, look who is posting in this very thread

Give me the ban-hammer power, and I'll silence a lot of the garbage, for you

ulenrich · Post by **ulenrich** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:21 am

desultory wrote:Given the absolute wealth of information and disinformation promulgated both by those for and those against systemd
...
non-neutral parties (who will themselves "lie" in varying degrees and directions depending on where their interests are focused).

As a systemd user I don't feel motivated to lie.
On the contrary I feel depended on truth
otherwise my system will fail
if I take wish for real.

Also any systemd user normally has an interest
in having openrc alive:
Just in case Kassandras call
about the big crunch of systemd
becomes real!

We will have to learn
to respectfully ignore the prayers of
the new Anti-LP-Church.

Anon-E-moose · Post by **Anon-E-moose** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:36 am

PaulBredbury wrote:You're letting the trolls take over

To see who the major trolls are, look who is posting in this very thread

Oh the absolute and utter irony, LoL

Give me the ban-hammer power, and I'll silence a lot of the garbage, for you

You'll ban yourself????

Thanks for the laughs

Edit to add: I've already admitted that I do sometimes troll those who troll others.

But when someone takes themself so seriously that they don't see that they are trolling, that's high humor.
Perhaps a visit to the mirror a little more often would be good for them. (a general observation)

Anyway, y'all have fun.

ulenrich · Post by **ulenrich** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:59 am

Anon-E-moose wrote:Edit to add: I've already admitted that I do sometimes troll those who troll others.

Sometimes?
Admit it is your new Anti-LP religion that matters and we respect that.

SamuliSuominen · Post by **SamuliSuominen** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:13 am

PaulBredbury wrote:
desultory wrote:prove me wrong to do so at their earliest convenience.
You're letting the trolls take over

To see who the major trolls are, look who is posting in this very thread

Give me the ban-hammer power, and I'll silence a lot of the garbage, for you

I second this. Moderators, please make Paul one too, he has been nothing but helpful, truthful, and neutral, while still politely expressing his own opinion. Paul is very knowledgable and has helped even me in the past
with some udev rules in the forums.

I'm not kidding. Make him a moderator.

- Samuli

Yamakuzure · Post by **Yamakuzure** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:20 am

ulenrich wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:Edit to add: I've already admitted that I do sometimes troll those who troll others.
Sometimes?
Admit it is your new Anti-LP religion that matters and we respect that.

Ah, don't do that. I guess the "systemd zealot" joke has worn off by now?
Come on, I've been called a "Poettering-FanBoy" just because I said that I do not explicitly hate LP or systemd.

Anon can be quite irritating sometimes, and I point him at it. Not because I want to piss you off, Anon, but because you do the same for me, which I appreciate. It is sometimes hard to see the trolling in your own writing.

I know that, so thank you for pointing me at it.

GFCCAE6xF · Post by **GFCCAE6xF** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:34 am

Here is a nice quote I saw last night:

I think your attitude is pretty typical of systemd detractors, and that attitude is exactly why systemd is making a victory sweep across all major Linux distributions;

Since you are in total denial of any existing problems with sysvinit, you are of course unable to suggest any alternative to it, or begin any coherent work on an alternative to it. The denial also suggest a lack of technical insight into the problem, and the pathetic lack of any alternative development work also suggest a lack of technical ability to make such an alternative.

This seemingly leaves systemd detractors with only one option; negative campaigning. So they have wasted years of slandering Lennart Poettering and other open source developers and companies, and whining, ranting and trolling on web forums, but without any real technical argumentation.

Using derogatory terms, like "bloat", or "Windoze crap" aren't technical argumentation, just like copy-pasting unattributed quotes from random sites about "Unix philosophy" doesn't convince anybody serious either.

You are also alienating people who may have been sympathetic to developing alternatives to systemd; who wants to join a bunch of anonymous people who rants like lunatics, and who seems to enjoy smug negative attitudes against other open source developers.

So to sum up; you are just a loud minority who conducts negative campaigning, seemingly without any ability to gather people to construct a positive alternative to systemd. As long as you deny any problems with sysvinit, and deny any positive merits of systemd, you will be unable to analyse the situation and therefore paralysed into inaction. This of course will mean, that Linux distro after Linux distro will switch over to systemd. Enjoy the future with systemd on every Linux distro; your negative attitude made it possible.

Unfortunately it pretty much sums up the anti-systemd talk on these forums, raving lunatics doing nothing but making snide remarks and attacking various developers. What is worse is this lines up with some of the replies the debian bug/ctte got (as well as other boards/forums elsewhere) after choosing systemd, incredibly violent/attacking lunatic rants with no basis on reality, it seems like non-systemd distros attract a very unsavoury group of people.

ulenrich · Post by **ulenrich** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:02 pm

rorgoroth wrote: it seems like non-systemd distros attract a very unsavoury group of people.

@rorgoroth
unluckily it is more than that in the Gentoo case: At the time when systemd incorporated udev we had an udev maintainer who changed paths in a way upstream stated it was the worst choice of all options.

Stating this done to just follow upstream it alienated unstable Gentoo users at the time. (/usr initramfs issue) This bad little maintainance history mixing up with the coming systemd trying to "vertical integrate" against all aproved Unix philosophy fostered a deep mistrust resulting in a Redhat conspiration theory.

This then mixes with LP calls to end udev ... which I assume a joke: We could ask Greg Kroah-Hartman if kernel.org would ever allow udev maintainance to end. This all is history and instead of promoting FUD we should explore reality to be able to get well grounded expectations.

Anon-E-moose · Post by **Anon-E-moose** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:03 pm

Yamakuzure wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:Edit to add: I've already admitted that I do sometimes troll those who troll others.
Sometimes?
Admit it is your new Anti-LP religion that matters and we respect that.
Ah, don't do that. I guess the "systemd zealot" joke has worn off by now?
Come on, I've been called a "Poettering-FanBoy" just because I said that I do not explicitly hate LP or systemd.

Anon can be quite irritating sometimes, and I point him at it. Not because I want to piss you off, Anon, but because you do the same for me, which I appreciate. It is sometimes hard to see the trolling in your own writing. I know that, so thank you for pointing me at it.

my new Anti-LP religion

I've stated that I don't hate LP or anyone for that matter. Hate's a waste of time and emotional resources.
Oh, I don't like his coding and programming style and I don't trust his motives.
But that's my prerogative, just as others can choose not to like what I say.

I don't even hate systemd. How does one hate a piece of software anyway?
I have no use for it in my world. But for those who do more power to them.
I don't try and talk people out of using it. But I don't want it shoved on me either.

I admit I can be irritating. It's my personal choice to speak plainly and let the chips fall where they may.

Anyway, as I said, have fun. Life is all to short.

Anon-E-moose · Post by **Anon-E-moose** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:10 pm

rorgoroth wrote:Unfortunately it pretty much sums up the systemd talk on these forums, raving lunatics doing nothing but making snide remarks and attacking various non-systemd users. What is worse is this lines up with some of the replies the debian bug/ctte got (as well as other boards/forums elsewhere) after not choosing systemd, incredibly violent/attacking lunatic rants with no basis on reality, it seems like systemd distros attract a very unsavoury group of people.

Works just as well this way.

ulenrich · Post by **ulenrich** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:37 pm

Anon-E-moose wrote:Oh, I don't like his coding and programming style and I don't trust his motives.
But that's my prerogative, just as others can choose not to like what I say.

But you believed your own propaganda in a way you promptly felt trolled
if others didn't follow your "prerogative". Then trolling "back" ..........

I'm happy you now see your prerogatives as such.
Was it the Debian debate (stating all the opposite you ever have said about systemd)?

Anon-E-moose · Post by **Anon-E-moose** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:46 pm

Since you are in total denial of any existing problems with sysvinit,

I'm not in denial about anything.

Does sysvinit have problems? Yep, that's why things like openrc, monit, etc came about.
Hell, any program much more complex than hello world, is going to find problems.
That's why there are new releases, bug fixes, etc in almost all pkgs, including the kernel.

If systemd had stuck with just being an init replacement, I might look at it seriously for my systems.
I'm just not a fan of kitchen sink, feature creep programs or that type programming mentality.
It produces lots of problems in the real world, ie businesses. It's a bad technique most of the time.
That it appears to work for some period of time doesn't really make it right.

Anyway, I had to run out for a minute or I would have added this to my previous post.