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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
Old School wrote:
Bomber Harris' whole strategy was to kill as many German civilians as possible to lower the morale of the people.


Quote:
The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.

Whatever the wartime propaganda, Butcher (as he was known by his own flight crews) Harris' strategy was to kill civilians. Harris tried to get the USAAF to blindly carpet bomb cities at night, but the US continued precision (for the time) daylight bombing.

He would be a war criminal by today's standard.
Precision... You do realise this is WWII and that only 17% of ALL bombs dropped were dropped within 5 MILES of their intended target and 1 in 3 aircraft got within 5 miles of their intended target?
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Last edited by Butts McCokey on Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Naib
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
Naib wrote:
Actually it was the Germans.
It turned out the Germans accidently bombed a civilian target during ww2 but air command did not know this (and neither did the Germans at the time...) The only interpretation was that Germany was putting civilian targets on the table and so Britain legitimately targeted German civilian targets

Doesn't change the fact Germany hit British civilian targets first


nope. Germany bombed Scapa flow and some civilian running around was killed. Brits bombed a hospital.



Nop :)
August 23-24 the outskirts of London accidentally had bombs fall on it doing some damage and killing a few civilians, also the same nights bombing of airfields in Portsmouth had unintentionally killed almost 100 civilians

Gloves came off so we shat over germany. Coventry was a summer retreat compared to Dresden. Blitz was a summer national holiday compared to hamburg or the "indiscriminate" targeting of the working class for maximum moral damage and decline in productivity as per Lindemann plan (a Jew who for some reason really hated the Germans). So called indiscriminate bombing as the Germans put it was far from indiscriminant. Denser packed working class results in more deaths per bomb.

Maybe the accidental bombing was just a convenient excuse and maybe England would have just gone fuck it and just bomb civilians...

Also Germany put civilians on the menu from 1937 with the bombing of Guernica
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Last edited by Naib on Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Old School
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Butts McCracken wrote:
Old School wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
Old School wrote:
Bomber Harris' whole strategy was to kill as many German civilians as possible to lower the morale of the people.


Quote:
The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.

Whatever the wartime propaganda, Butcher (as he was known by his own flight crews) Harris' strategy was to kill civilians. Harris tried to get the USAAF to blindly carpet bomb cities at night, but the US continued precision (for the time) daylight bombing.

He would be a war criminal by today's standard.
Precision... You do realise this is WWII and that only 17% of ALL bombs dropped were dropped within 5 MILES of their intended target and 1 in 3 aircraft got within 5 miles of their intended target?

For you Brits... sure.

We were much more accurate than blindly bombing at night.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
Old School wrote:
Bomber Harris' whole strategy was to kill as many German civilians as possible to lower the morale of the people.


Quote:
The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.

Whatever the wartime propaganda, Butcher (as he was known by his own flight crews) Harris' strategy was to kill civilians. Harris tried to get the USAAF to blindly carpet bomb cities at night, but the US continued precision (for the time) daylight bombing.

He would be a war criminal by today's standard.


Total war - you do what you have to.
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
Butts McCracken wrote:
Old School wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
Old School wrote:
Bomber Harris' whole strategy was to kill as many German civilians as possible to lower the morale of the people.


Quote:
The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.

Whatever the wartime propaganda, Butcher (as he was known by his own flight crews) Harris' strategy was to kill civilians. Harris tried to get the USAAF to blindly carpet bomb cities at night, but the US continued precision (for the time) daylight bombing.

He would be a war criminal by today's standard.
Precision... You do realise this is WWII and that only 17% of ALL bombs dropped were dropped within 5 MILES of their intended target and 1 in 3 aircraft got within 5 miles of their intended target?

For you Brits... sure.

We were much more accurate than blindly bombing at night.
Brits, USians, Germans, Russians, Japanese, Canadians, Polish, Italians and everybody else
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Old School
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With less than 5/10ths cloud coverage an average B-17 Group could be expected to place 32.4% of its bombs within 1000 feet of the aiming point when aiming visually.

The average B-24 Group under the same conditions could be expected to place 30.4% of its bombs within 1000 feet of the aiming point.
One box of bombers could contain from 3 to 18 planes. Formations with a three plane frontage could be expected to be 45% more accurate than formations with a nine plane frontage. A six bomber front would be only about 10% more accurate than a 9 bomber front.
The percentage of boxes which could be expected to place at least 10% of their load within 1000 feet of the aiming point depends upon how many other boxes passed over the target beforehand.

R.A.F. bombers dropped 40% of their bombs within 425 feet of the aiming point and averaged 38% of their tonnage on target. While it appears that the R.A.F. was vastly more accurate than the A.A.F., it must be remember that the "AIMING POINT'" for A.A.F. aircraft was usually a single factory building. The "AIMING POINT" for R.A.F. bombers would be the entire city.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The British were the ones who initiated bombing cities from high altitude, to reduce bomber losses. However, it was the Germans who first bombed the crap out of civilian targets, including setting fire to entire cities.

As far as modern, literate states go (i.e., not including the likes of the Mongols, Bronze Age civilizations, and tribal savages), the Germans freaking invented Total War (Der Totale Krieg). During and since World War II, Germans have invested a lot of time and energy in propaganda to re-write history with the pretense that it was their enemies, not they, who initiated Total Warfare in World War II (for example, referring to Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbles' ridiculous speech in the Berlin Sportpalastrede as though it were a delivery of historical fact or something -- this is fully as asinine as would be referring to the Iraqi Information Minister's speeches as a source of fact about Desert Storm, and yet Germans do it without hesitation, including filling Wikipedia with such crap, and no doubt, the minds of their children, too).

Meanwhile, the British try and perpetuate a myth that they achieved some kind of victory in that war, in which they pretty much got their asses kicked by Germany and had to be rescued.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
the British try and perpetuate a myth that they achieved some kind of victory in that war, in which they pretty much got their asses kicked by Germany and had to be rescued.


We needed help due to the exhaustion of resources, bailing Europe out took most, if not all of what was left from WW1. We also paid for the assistance rendered - and had a slice of luck in Hilter's rather crappy command. What would have happened, if we (Britain) had refused to enter the war ?

It's a bit like those that paint Churchill as a warmonger (he was) - then again, if the UK had listened to him earlier, rather than Chamberlain - then we could have had a pre-emptive strike and stopped however many millions dying, then he (Churchill) would still have been depicted as a warmonger by later generations.

Which is somewhat ironic.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
the British try and perpetuate a myth that they achieved some kind of victory in that war, in which they pretty much got their asses kicked by Germany and had to be rescued.


We needed help due to the exhaustion of resources, bailing Europe out took most, if not all of what was left from WW1. We also paid for the assistance rendered - and had a slice of luck in Hilter's rather crappy command. What would have happened, if we (Britain) had refused to enter the war ?

It's a bit like those that paint Churchill as a warmonger (he was) - then again, if the UK had listened to him earlier, rather than Chamberlain - then we could have had a pre-emptive strike and stopped however many millions dying, then he (Churchill) would still have been depicted as a warmonger by later generations.

Which is somewhat ironic.

The problems go back further than that.
1) USA refusing to join the League of nations and thus the clout it provided significantly diminished
2) those members of the League of Nations actual reluctance todo anything
3) the treaty of Versailles that was more about significantly punishing Germany, perpetuation the French popous condescending attitude to belittle the Germans...
4) The British going behind the backs of the League of Nations & USA to modify the Washinton Naval Treaty... Germany actually saw this as an extending hand to re-introduce Germany into Europe, Britain was using it to ensure their naval tonnage was maintained but ensuring Germany stayed gimped... further embarrassing Germany...

Germany was fucked, France fucked it (post-war not during... only the french can talk downto nations in their own way... when their have "friends" with big clubs to protect them... they really are the personification of the Napoleon complex...) and continued to embarrass it, something was going to happen, was was the only real way... shame they put Hitler into power

But that is hindsight ... butterflies...
THAT is what makes such "discussions" so funny can keep bouncing back and forth to pass the blame, to justify one act by proceeding acts... coulda, shoulda, woulda....
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
the British try and perpetuate a myth that they achieved some kind of victory in that war, in which they pretty much got their asses kicked by Germany and had to be rescued.


We needed help due to the exhaustion of resources, bailing Europe out took most, if not all of what was left from WW1. We also paid for the assistance rendered - and had a slice of luck in Hilter's rather crappy command. What would have happened, if we (Britain) had refused to enter the war ?

I'll give you this: the one thing Britain did not run out of was the will to fight. It was short of everything else: weapons, men, food, fuel, raw materials... but it did still have the will to fight and to dig deep enough to muster the men to do it.

As to what would have happened, had Britain not entered the war, that's hard to say. We might never have had to worry about the Soviet Union enslaving humanity or obliterating the entire biosphere. The Japanese might not have had the radishes to attack the U.S., and might instead have focused on subjugating China. We probably wouldn't be having to bail out Greece, Italy and Spain, and there might not be much of a civil rights issue today. :P
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
the British try and perpetuate a myth that they achieved some kind of victory in that war, in which they pretty much got their asses kicked by Germany and had to be rescued.


We needed help due to the exhaustion of resources, bailing Europe out took most, if not all of what was left from WW1. We also paid for the assistance rendered - and had a slice of luck in Hilter's rather crappy command. What would have happened, if we (Britain) had refused to enter the war ?

I'll give you this: the one thing Britain did not run out of was the will to fight. It was short of everything else: weapons, men, food, fuel, raw materials... but it did still have the will to fight and to dig deep enough to muster the men to do it.


His Majesty was willing to fight to the last Australian.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought that was Churchill, at Gallipoli, when he was Lord of the Admiralty. :lol:
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should have said last Australian and Canadian.
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