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mounty1 l33t
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 934 Location: Queensland
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Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:16 am Post subject: No X please; we're Gentoo |
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Presumably it's not yet possible to build an Xless system, along the lines of:
Quote: | USE="-X wayland" emerge gnome-base/gnome | ? I did try but even doxygen requires gtk+ which requires gdk-pixbuf.
I hard-masked a load of X libraries such as x11-libs/libX11 to make sure that X wasn't pulled-in, but it was.
Why ? I use X elsewhere but this particular machine is a thin client with an Atom N280 so any speed-up is welcome. _________________ Michael Mounteney
Last edited by mounty1 on Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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asturm Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007 Posts: 8935
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Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:47 am Post subject: |
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I can't find any package that pulls in doxygen without +doc flag. So disable 'doc' unless you need it in some package specifically, if that then requires doxygen, you're out of luck for the time being. Well, the wayland README seems to suggest that the gdk-pixbuf development version has support for wayland. That might be the least of your problems though, so be prepared to hit multiple walls before success.
You need to figure out dependencies instead of hardmasking X packages. |
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mounty1 l33t
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 934 Location: Queensland
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Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:08 am Post subject: |
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genstorm wrote: | I can't find any package that pulls in doxygen without +doc flag. So disable 'doc' unless you need it in some package specifically, if that then requires doxygen, you're out of luck for the time being. | I suspect it's going to be hard to exclude doxygen. genstorm wrote: | Well, the wayland README seems to suggest that the gdk-pixbuf development version has support for wayland. That might be the least of your problems though, so be prepared to hit multiple walls before success. | So maybe it should be renamed from x11-libs/gdk-pixbuf ? Anyway, currently, equery u gdk-pixbuf does not list wayland. genstorm wrote: | You need to figure out dependencies instead of hardmasking X packages. | Obviously hard-masking doesn't solve any problems. I was only using it as a way to detect that packages that I expected to be excluded were in fact being pulled-in.
Thanks for the answer. I'm surprised I'm the first/only person asking about this. I thought the main point of wayland was to eliminate X. _________________ Michael Mounteney |
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Yamakuzure Advocate
Joined: 21 Jun 2006 Posts: 2283 Location: Adendorf, Germany
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:43 am Post subject: |
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[quote="mounty1"] genstorm wrote: | I thought the main point of wayland was to eliminate X. | Well, in October 2010 Wayland became a freedesktop.org project, and the developers of Wayland are largely present X.Org Server developers. So the goal is certainly not to *eliminate* X.
Currently Clutter, EFL, GTK+3 and Qt5 support wayland, SDL is working on it. Btw, Weston and KWin are the only window managers (compositors) with complete wayland support, yet AFAIK. _________________ Important German:- "Aha" - German reaction to pretend that you are really interested while giving no f*ck.
- "Tja" - German reaction to the apocalypse, nuclear war, an alien invasion or no bread in the house.
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depontius Advocate
Joined: 05 May 2004 Posts: 3509
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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Yamakuzure wrote: | Btw, Weston and KWin are the only window managers (compositors) with complete wayland support, yet AFAIK. |
Are you aware of any other ways to run a Wayland system without using GNOME or KDE coming down the pike? (I thought Weston was a base component of Wayland, not a WM.) I run neither GNOME nor KDE - I have my wife using xfce, and I just use a bare wm. _________________ .sigs waste space and bandwidth |
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Ant P. Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009 Posts: 6920
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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E17 has wayland support, I haven't tried that setup myself. |
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mounty1 l33t
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 934 Location: Queensland
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:35 pm Post subject: E17 has wayland |
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Ant P. wrote: | E17 has wayland support, I haven't tried that setup myself. | Unfortunately, E17 doesn't have applications. _________________ Michael Mounteney |
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mounty1 l33t
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 934 Location: Queensland
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Ant P. Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009 Posts: 6920
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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Then maybe you should go use that until you've gotten over your X11-phobia.
BTW, X11 runs on 30 year old hardware. Maybe the problem isn't your Atom CPU, but your faulty expectations. |
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1clue Advocate
Joined: 05 Feb 2006 Posts: 2569
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:13 am Post subject: |
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Ant P. wrote: | ...BTW, X11 runs on 30 year old hardware... |
I hate you.
I remember when the Lisa was announced. I saw one, but years later.
I remember seeing X the first time on a DEC at my college, I think it was 1987. I wasn't allowed to even go in the room, but I could see it through the door. I remember the Sun stations we had, one of the teachers got X (I don't think it was X11) going on it and wouldn't tell anyone how to run it or even what it was called.
I remember some Apollo workstations later I had an account on, and some newer Sun boxes that came with X and booted straight to an X login.
I remember XFree86 when it was either entertaining or frustrating, depending on how badly you wanted it to work. Almost completely unusable in any practical application. I was running Linux then, but perfectly comfortable without X or a mouse so for me it was an entertaining way to waste some time.
What I didn't realize is that this all started with the Lisa about 30 years ago.
I'm feeling all of my years right now.
Thanks a bunch. |
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mounty1 l33t
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 934 Location: Queensland
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:57 am Post subject: |
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Ant P. wrote: | Then maybe you should go use that until you've gotten over your X11-phobia.. | I've been using X quite happily for eighteen years but am always interested in novel technology; that's why I use Gentoo, since it's usually amongst the first to package such technology and make it available.
Ant P. wrote: | BTW, X11 runs on 30 year old hardware. Maybe the problem isn't your Atom CPU, but your faulty expectations. | I currently use the Atom machine with lightdm acting as an XDMCP client talking to a KVMed Gentoo instance running on a headless server, but am interested in moving CPU cycles off the server. _________________ Michael Mounteney |
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Yamakuzure Advocate
Joined: 21 Jun 2006 Posts: 2283 Location: Adendorf, Germany
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:25 am Post subject: |
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depontius wrote: | Yamakuzure wrote: | Btw, Weston and KWin are the only window managers (compositors) with complete wayland support, yet AFAIK. |
Are you aware of any other ways to run a Wayland system without using GNOME or KDE coming down the pike? (I thought Weston was a base component of Wayland, not a WM.) I run neither GNOME nor KDE - I have my wife using xfce, and I just use a bare wm. | This is a bit old (March 2013), but Wikipedia states this:
Toolkits:
- Clutter has complete Wayland support.
- EFL has complete Wayland support, except for selection.
- GTK+ 3 support is complete, including client-side decorations and is scheduled to be part of the 3.10 release in September 2013.
- Qt 5 has complete Wayland support, including the client-side decorations.
- SDL support for Wayland is under development
Window managers:
- Weston – the reference implementation of a Wayland Compositor.
- Enlightenment 0.19 (E19) is expected to have full Wayland support.
- KWin had incomplete Wayland support in April 2013.
- Mutter has incomplete Wayland support.
- Clayland is a simple example Wayland compositor using Clutter.
I am currently working on a small Gentoo VM using hardened profile, no-multilib, full ~amd64 and Wayland support. But it is no top priority, so this'll need a while. Currently I have no idea whether it is possible to build something graphical on Wayland without X or not. _________________ Important German:- "Aha" - German reaction to pretend that you are really interested while giving no f*ck.
- "Tja" - German reaction to the apocalypse, nuclear war, an alien invasion or no bread in the house.
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mounty1 l33t
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 934 Location: Queensland
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:56 am Post subject: |
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Yamakuzure wrote: | Currently I have no idea whether it is possible to build something graphical on Wayland without X or not. | My experience is that USE="-X wayland" gtk+ requires gdk-pixbuf with X. _________________ Michael Mounteney |
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rudregues Apprentice
Joined: 29 Jan 2013 Posts: 231 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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Is this a gentoo or wayland issue? _________________ Emerging en gentoo |
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asturm Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007 Posts: 8935
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Posted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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It's a gtk+/gdk-pixbuf issue |
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Yamakuzure Advocate
Joined: 21 Jun 2006 Posts: 2283 Location: Adendorf, Germany
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Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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No, it is an "understanding"-issue.
@mounty1 : What pulls in gdk-pixbuf?
However, of course you'll need plenty of X-related packages like libraries and stuff. Wayland is not meant to substitute everything that is found in any of the x11-* categories.
Basically it is just a way to remove xorg-server as a proxy from between the compositor (window manager) and the kernel.
Wayland support in kwin-4.11 is highly experimental, so I am trying to build enlightenment with "-X wayland". But ecore-1.7.8, for example, still needs libX11 installed with "-X xcb wayland". I am not finished, yet (lack of time), but until now, nothing forces anything to install with USE="X" (, yet!). _________________ Important German:- "Aha" - German reaction to pretend that you are really interested while giving no f*ck.
- "Tja" - German reaction to the apocalypse, nuclear war, an alien invasion or no bread in the house.
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mounty1 l33t
Joined: 06 Jul 2006 Posts: 934 Location: Queensland
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:25 am Post subject: |
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Yamakuzure wrote: | @mounty1 : What pulls in gdk-pixbuf? | gtk+ Yamakuzure wrote: | However, of course you'll need plenty of X-related packages like libraries and stuff. Wayland is not meant to substitute everything that is found in any of the x11-* categories.
Basically it is just a way to remove xorg-server as a proxy from between the compositor (window manager) and the kernel.
Wayland support in kwin-4.11 is highly experimental, so I am trying to build enlightenment with "-X wayland". But ecore-1.7.8, for example, still needs libX11 installed with "-X xcb wayland". | That's the bit that I don't get; if it's pulling-in libX11, it's using the X protocol and wants to talk to an X server, n'est-ce pas? Yamakuzure wrote: | I am not finished, yet (lack of time), but until now, nothing forces anything to install with USE="X" (, yet!). | OK; your efforts are appreciated. _________________ Michael Mounteney |
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