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McGruff
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 145
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 Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| That's a start but pistols basically only have one purpose, killing people, so I'd much rather just ban them all. |
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Naib
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Joined: 21 May 2004
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Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | | That's a start but pistols basically only have one purpose, killing people, so I'd much rather just ban them all. |
or as a hobby to just shoot, or as a hobby to collect.
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Butts McCokey
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Joined: 23 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | Quite right. Any material promoting guns or gun culture should be banned in the same way that cigarette advertising is |
banned if it is school policy sure, but jailed for breaking a school policy? |
From what I hear, guns in schools is quite a big problem. You need tough sentences to dissuade people from breaking rules |
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Naib
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 4053
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| cokehabit wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | Quite right. Any material promoting guns or gun culture should be banned in the same way that cigarette advertising is |
banned if it is school policy sure, but jailed for breaking a school policy? |
From what I hear, guns in schools is quite a big problem. You need tough sentences to dissuade people from breaking rules |
well yer, but this is a teeshirt promoting the NRA?
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A free press is the unsleeping guardian of every other right that free men prize; it is the most dangerous foe of tyranny. Where men have the habit of liberty, the Press will continue to be the vigilant guardian of the rights of the ordinary citizen. |
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Butts McCokey
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Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3310
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| bogamol wrote: | | The Constitution (the whole thing, Amendments and all) is a big deal to us. |
It needs to be fixed, maybe brought in line with the 21st century |
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Prenj
n00b
Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 10
Location: Mostar, BiH
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| cokehabit wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | Quite right. Any material promoting guns or gun culture should be banned in the same way that cigarette advertising is |
banned if it is school policy sure, but jailed for breaking a school policy? |
From what I hear, guns in schools is quite a big problem. You need tough sentences to dissuade people from breaking rules |
Yeah cos that works.
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Butts McCokey
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Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3310
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | Quite right. Any material promoting guns or gun culture should be banned in the same way that cigarette advertising is |
banned if it is school policy sure, but jailed for breaking a school policy? |
From what I hear, guns in schools is quite a big problem. You need tough sentences to dissuade people from breaking rules |
well yer, but this is a teeshirt promoting the NRA? |
Was he told not to?
What did he expect? If he had done as he were told then there would be no problem.
Put it this way, if the penalty for wearing NRA tshirts was beheading then he wouldn't have worn it.
He thought he'd push the boundaries. He was found out. He lost. He was punished. |
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Prenj
n00b
Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 10
Location: Mostar, BiH
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| cokehabit wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | Quite right. Any material promoting guns or gun culture should be banned in the same way that cigarette advertising is |
banned if it is school policy sure, but jailed for breaking a school policy? |
From what I hear, guns in schools is quite a big problem. You need tough sentences to dissuade people from breaking rules |
well yer, but this is a teeshirt promoting the NRA? |
Was he told not to?
What did he expect? If he had done as he were told then there would be no problem.
Put it this way, if the penalty for wearing NRA tshirts was beheading then he wouldn't have worn it.
He thought he'd push the boundaries. He was found out. He lost. He was punished. |
Lets see it other way around. If there is government imposed penalty for wearing a t-shirt, then the government is the enemy, then it is in their right to keep guns. See how that authoritarian bs doesn't work in countries who managed to break off from the european ways, The Crown, and all that jizz?
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Butts McCokey
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Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3310
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Prenj wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | Quite right. Any material promoting guns or gun culture should be banned in the same way that cigarette advertising is |
banned if it is school policy sure, but jailed for breaking a school policy? |
From what I hear, guns in schools is quite a big problem. You need tough sentences to dissuade people from breaking rules |
well yer, but this is a teeshirt promoting the NRA? |
Was he told not to?
What did he expect? If he had done as he were told then there would be no problem.
Put it this way, if the penalty for wearing NRA tshirts was beheading then he wouldn't have worn it.
He thought he'd push the boundaries. He was found out. He lost. He was punished. |
Lets see it other way around. If there is government imposed penalty for wearing a t-shirt, then the government is the enemy, then it is in their right to keep guns. See how that authoritarian bs doesn't work in countries who managed to break off from the european ways, The Crown, and all that jizz? |
no, I don't see.
It's simple:
1. He was told not to do something
2. He did something.
3. He paid the price.
I don't see the problem. |
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Prenj
n00b
Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 10
Location: Mostar, BiH
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| cokehabit wrote: | | Prenj wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | Naib wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | Quite right. Any material promoting guns or gun culture should be banned in the same way that cigarette advertising is |
banned if it is school policy sure, but jailed for breaking a school policy? |
From what I hear, guns in schools is quite a big problem. You need tough sentences to dissuade people from breaking rules |
well yer, but this is a teeshirt promoting the NRA? |
Was he told not to?
What did he expect? If he had done as he were told then there would be no problem.
Put it this way, if the penalty for wearing NRA tshirts was beheading then he wouldn't have worn it.
He thought he'd push the boundaries. He was found out. He lost. He was punished. |
Lets see it other way around. If there is government imposed penalty for wearing a t-shirt, then the government is the enemy, then it is in their right to keep guns. See how that authoritarian bs doesn't work in countries who managed to break off from the european ways, The Crown, and all that jizz? |
no, I don't see.
It's simple:
1. He was told not to do something
2. He did something.
3. He paid the price.
I don't see the problem. |
Well then, it's the perception, not the issue at hand.
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Butts McCokey
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Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3310
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| What would have been MORE problematic is if they did nothing. Then everyone would know they could break any rule they want with impunity |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16087
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | wswartzendruber wrote: | I'm beginning to wonder if we shouldn't have a ban on handguns, available only to those with concealed weapons permits. The reason is twofold:
1. Dumbass gun owners who let their shit get so easily stolen.
2. The vast, vast majority of gun crimes are committed with pistols.
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soon, your journey to the darkside will be complete. |
How appropriate.
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lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.
In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008 |
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wswartzendruber
Veteran
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 1217
Location: Jefferson, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | | That's a start but pistols basically only have one purpose, killing people, so I'd much rather just ban them all. |
I see your...
...cron job is running well.
Do you know why the concealed weapons program exists? |
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eponymous_dick
Veteran
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1550
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:45 am Post subject: |
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Unless the school has a general and equitably enforced ban on wearing or displaying anything of a politically or socially contentious nature, this action by the educators is completely unacceptable.
This comment is particular is quite disturbing:
| Quote: | It's simple:
1. He was told not to do something
2. He did something.
3. He paid the price.
I don't see the problem. |
"You can't have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!"
Apparently the UK has is already well past the point of no return on collectivist authoritarianism, having started their public schools indoctrination program decades ago. 
Holy fuck. Welcome to INGSOC.
I hope they get sued so hard they fire the whole administration and whichever teacher(s) made an issue of it to begin with, and the voters throw the whole school board out on their asses.
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eponymous_dick
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Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1550
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| Naib wrote: | http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/18/the-14-year-old-kid-arrested-over-his-pro-nra-shirt-now-faces-a-year-in-jail/
| Quote: |
The West Virginia eighth-grader who was suspended and arrested in late April after he refused to remove a t-shirt supporting the National Rifle Association appeared in court this week and was formally charged with obstructing an officer.
As CBS affiliate WOWK reports, 14-year-old Jared Marcum now faces a $500 fine and a maximum of one year in prison.
The boy’s father, Allen Lardieri, is not pleased. |
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This is obviously just malicious prosecution. More to add to the lawsuit.
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"I before E, except after C, or when sounded like A, as in 'neighbor' and 'weigh'... unless you have sufficient cause to seize a scientist's heist of weird foreign species." |
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eponymous_dick
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Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1550
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | | That's a start but pistols basically only have one purpose, killing people, so I'd much rather just ban them all. |
As usual, what's coming out of your mouth is completely irrelevant. The kid was wearing a picture promoting hunting rights.
| Quote: |
Officials at Logan Middle School in Logan County, West Va. maintain that Marcum, who has since completed eighth grade, was suspended for one day because he caused a disruption after a teacher asked him to remove a shirt emblazoned with a hunting rifle and the statement “protect your right.”
“She said, ‘Are you supposed to wear that in school?’” Marcum had previously explained in an interview with the CBS affiliate. “I said, ‘I don’t see why I shouldn’t.’” |
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Muso
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| bogamol wrote: | In this case, people are up at arms because a teenager's 1st Amendment right to freedom of expression was violated. It just looks like 2nd Amendment blather because the stance he was expressing support for was the conservative understanding of the 2nd Amendment.
Also, we've got a pretty long and boisterous conversation going about Edward Snowden (I think he spawned 3 threads). The Edward Snowden case has deep implications with respect to the 4th Amendment.
Hell, Muso even went after the 10th Amendment which is kind of a catch all that says that states will govern on any issue that isn't specifically spelled out in the constitution, recently. |
Indeed.
There were two decisions by SCOTUS that were victories for civil libertarians. The dems freaked out over the 10th amendment victory of the outdated "voting rights act" verdict (and YES, it is outdated. Massachusetts has a worse record of minority participation than Georgia... so the law was an anachronism that needed to die). The GOP freaked out over the 14th amendment victory for gay marriage.
| bogamol wrote: | | The Constitution (the whole thing, Amendments and all) is a big deal to us. |
Very much so. We are (were) a nation of laws.
| BoneKracker wrote: | | <snip> |
mcgruff's always wrong about philosophy, AGW and American law. Why even entertain his posts on those subjects?
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Butts McCokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3310
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | Unless the school has a general and equitably enforced ban on wearing or displaying anything of a politically or socially contentious nature, this action by the educators is completely unacceptable.
This comment is particular is quite disturbing:
| Quote: | It's simple:
1. He was told not to do something
2. He did something.
3. He paid the price.
I don't see the problem. |
"You can't have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!"
Apparently the UK has is already well past the point of no return on collectivist authoritarianism, having started their public schools indoctrination program decades ago.
Holy fuck. Welcome to INGSOC.
I hope they get sued so hard they fire the whole administration and whichever teacher(s) made an issue of it to begin with, and the voters throw the whole school board out on their asses. |
If people don't like the school's rules then there are other schools with different rules to send your children to |
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Prenj
n00b
Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 10
Location: Mostar, BiH
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| cokehabit wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | Unless the school has a general and equitably enforced ban on wearing or displaying anything of a politically or socially contentious nature, this action by the educators is completely unacceptable.
This comment is particular is quite disturbing:
| Quote: | It's simple:
1. He was told not to do something
2. He did something.
3. He paid the price.
I don't see the problem. |
"You can't have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!"
Apparently the UK has is already well past the point of no return on collectivist authoritarianism, having started their public schools indoctrination program decades ago.
Holy fuck. Welcome to INGSOC.
I hope they get sued so hard they fire the whole administration and whichever teacher(s) made an issue of it to begin with, and the voters throw the whole school board out on their asses. |
If people don't like the school's rules then there are other schools with different rules to send your children to |
What kind of child were you? The idea of going to school is breaking the rules in safe and familiar environment.
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In Soviet America, The Internet browses YOU! |
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Butts McCokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3310
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| Prenj wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | Unless the school has a general and equitably enforced ban on wearing or displaying anything of a politically or socially contentious nature, this action by the educators is completely unacceptable.
This comment is particular is quite disturbing:
| Quote: | It's simple:
1. He was told not to do something
2. He did something.
3. He paid the price.
I don't see the problem. |
"You can't have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!"
Apparently the UK has is already well past the point of no return on collectivist authoritarianism, having started their public schools indoctrination program decades ago.
Holy fuck. Welcome to INGSOC.
I hope they get sued so hard they fire the whole administration and whichever teacher(s) made an issue of it to begin with, and the voters throw the whole school board out on their asses. |
If people don't like the school's rules then there are other schools with different rules to send your children to |
What kind of child were you? The idea of going to school is breaking the rules in safe and familiar environment. |
You go to school to learn about life. Part of that is dealing with the consequences of you actions. The person in this story has learned a very important lesson: namely if you can't to the time, don't do the crime |
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Muso
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| cokehabit wrote: | | The person in this story has learned a very important lesson: namely if you can't to the time, don't do the crime |
He also learned that lefties are fucking evil authoritarian pricks. So, GOOD JOB!!!!
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“If the words 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on.” ~ T. McKenna |
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Prenj
n00b
Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 10
Location: Mostar, BiH
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| cokehabit wrote: | | You go to school to learn about life. Part of that is dealing with the consequences of you actions. The person in this story has learned a very important lesson: namely if you can't to the time, don't do the crime |
Erm, no, you go to school to learn how to be successful domestic animal and integrate into modern society.
Ever heard of expression "the things you're not taught at school"? That's life.
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Butts McCokey
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3310
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Muso wrote: | | cokehabit wrote: | | The person in this story has learned a very important lesson: namely if you can't to the time, don't do the crime |
He also learned that lefties are fucking evil authoritarian pricks. So, GOOD JOB!!!! |
I have no problems with authoritarianism, as long as it is sensible. If the penalty for wearing NRA tshirts was death then I'd have a problem |
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Muso
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| cokehabit wrote: | | I have no problems with authoritarianism |
obviously 
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“If the words 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on.” ~ T. McKenna |
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eponymous_dick
Veteran
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1550
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| cokehabit wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | Unless the school has a general and equitably enforced ban on wearing or displaying anything of a politically or socially contentious nature, this action by the educators is completely unacceptable.
This comment is particular is quite disturbing:
| Quote: | It's simple:
1. He was told not to do something
2. He did something.
3. He paid the price.
I don't see the problem. |
"You can't have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!"
Apparently the UK has is already well past the point of no return on collectivist authoritarianism, having started their public schools indoctrination program decades ago.
Holy fuck. Welcome to INGSOC.
I hope they get sued so hard they fire the whole administration and whichever teacher(s) made an issue of it to begin with, and the voters throw the whole school board out on their asses. |
If people don't like the school's rules then there are other schools with different rules to send your children to |
That might be true of private schools into which one enrolls voluntarily, but public schools have to obey the law, respect people's rights, and answer to both the local community and state and Federal educational authorities.
Precedents have been established. As I told you earlier, such policies by schools are acceptable, but they must be generic and non-discriminatory. If this school has a policy against wearing anything that is politically or socially controversial, AND they equitably enforce it, then what they did here is okay.
What's more likely is that educators (who are mostly liberals who couldn't compete in the real world and instead want to boss children around to make themselves feel good) have been consuming so much collectivist authoritarian Kool Aid that they go into labor whenever they even see an image of a firearm, and their fucking brainwashing shuts down their thought processes to the point that they treat a 7th grade boy with a hunting rights shirt on as a terrorist threat.
The core fact here is that they are harrassing, severely, a child for merely using his Constitutionally guaranteed right to free speech (in a completely non-disruptive manner not involving even an innuendo of a hint of a shadow of violence) to express his support for another Constitionally guaranteed right. It's pretty clear who is in the wrong here, and the legal precedents are also quite clear.
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