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666threesixes666 Veteran
Joined: 31 May 2011 Posts: 1248 Location: 42.68n 85.41w
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Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:22 pm Post subject: linux philosophy |
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This 'gentoo' teach a man to fish philosophy is flawed to the core. The man is starving, take em to mc donalds, get him a mc fish, give him a fishing pole, lures, a tackle box, and some fishing magazines. one day when you have no fish, and are starving, they may just get you back. the "read the manual" responses are a waste of breath, and time with out pointing to relevant manuals to read, or commands to execute to extract information from. |
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John R. Graham Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2005 Posts: 10587 Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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I think there's a man page somewhere that would explain this more thoroughly to you.
- John _________________ I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters. |
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Jaglover Watchman
Joined: 29 May 2005 Posts: 8291 Location: Saint Amant, Acadiana
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666threesixes666 Veteran
Joined: 31 May 2011 Posts: 1248 Location: 42.68n 85.41w
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Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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statement.
"it's a big club and you ain't in it" -George Carlin |
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John R. Graham Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2005 Posts: 10587 Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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@666threesixes666, in the long run, spoon feeding Gentoo doesn't work very well. You might even be doing the people you're trying to help a disservice. That said, nobody's going to stop you if you want to, but you're not going to get any traction at all berating others for their refusal to do so. In fact, it's borderline trolling.
- John _________________ I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters. |
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kurly Apprentice
Joined: 02 Apr 2012 Posts: 260
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Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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John R. Graham wrote: | In fact, it's borderline trolling. |
Borderline? I think it pretty well crosses the line. I've been wondering when someone was going to do/say something about it again. |
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John R. Graham Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2005 Posts: 10587 Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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You may be right. However, the reason I called it borderline is that I believe he honestly wants to help, but just doesn't get it...(hopefully) yet.
- John _________________ I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters. |
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PaulBredbury Watchman
Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7310
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Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:24 pm Post subject: Re: linux philosophy |
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666threesixes666 wrote: | take em to mc donalds |
Who's gonna pay for that?
What will happen is, you'll get heartily sick of stupid people with the same old stupid questions, and constants requests for money to buy McShakes and burgers, which they then don't even want to share with you.
Unless you're Jesus, of course. Are you? Maybe the username is just to put people off the scent. |
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steveL Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006 Posts: 5153 Location: The Peanut Gallery
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Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:10 pm Post subject: Re: linux philosophy |
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PaulBredbury wrote: | Unless you're Jesus, of course. Are you? Maybe the username is just to put people off the scent. |
Lol. |
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grey_dot Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 15 Jul 2012 Posts: 142
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Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:22 am Post subject: |
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Linux philosophy is about forking or rewriting from scratch every piece of software without actually getting things done. I'm serious. Look at ifconfig for example - in BSD world you have a single ifconfig binary which allows to control almost every aspect of the network interface. I can even setup wifi+wpa connection using only ifconfig in OpenBSD. On the other hand in linux world we have almost abandoned ifconfig, fancy yet retarded iproute2, iwconfig, brconfig, wtfconfig, etc, and they all suck. I really hate this thing in linux people. |
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NeddySeagoon Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003 Posts: 54220 Location: 56N 3W
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Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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666threesixes666,
If handing out fish is your way of helping, nobody here will stand in your way. Most users come to Gentoo because they want to understand how something works. Thats best achieved by providing aids to understanding, which is not the same thing as providing a solution to the immediate problem.
Pointing to man pages saves quoting them in posts or writing them out again. man is just one of many useful references to spread understanding. _________________ Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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666threesixes666 Veteran
Joined: 31 May 2011 Posts: 1248 Location: 42.68n 85.41w
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Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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i'm not handing out fish, emerge is. this distro should focus on flexibility, choice, configurability, and maintainability. ease of use and instillation should be covered by maintainability. |
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asturm Developer
Joined: 05 Apr 2007 Posts: 8935
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Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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666threesixes666 wrote: | this distro should focus on flexibility, choice, configurability, and maintainability. ease of use and instillation should be covered by maintainability. |
I don't see a problem there |
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aCOSwt Bodhisattva
Joined: 19 Oct 2007 Posts: 2537 Location: Hilbert space
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Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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NeddySeagoon wrote: | Thats best achieved by providing aids to understanding, which is not the same thing as providing a solution to the immediate problem. |
Because then the helpee will need to work and work...
Enables self-consciousness!
Pardon me, I just could not resist. _________________
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NeddySeagoon Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003 Posts: 54220 Location: 56N 3W
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Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:58 am Post subject: |
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666threesixes666 wrote: | ... this distro should focus on flexibility, choice, configurability, and maintainability. ease of use and instillation should be covered by maintainability |
There are some mutually exclusive aims there. That means Gentoo has to make some compromises.
In my view, its about right. I freely accept that others have different opinions about what is a good compromise.
That explains why
a) there are so many Linux distros
b) gentoo is not for everyone
Feel free to make Gentoo into something its not (yet) ... open your own overlay, hack away there on top of the portage tree.
If you make your 666threesixes666 overlay public, you might even find others to join and reshape Gentoo.
You might even get the opportunity to add your ebuilds to the official portage tree.
@aCOSwt,
:) _________________ Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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TomWij Retired Dev
Joined: 04 Jul 2012 Posts: 1553
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Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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John R. Graham wrote: | I think there's a man page somewhere that would explain this more thoroughly to you. |
/usr/src/linux/Documentation/ManagementStyle
666threesixes666 wrote: | i'm not handing out fish, emerge is. this distro should focus on flexibility, choice, configurability, and maintainability. ease of use and instillation should be covered by maintainability. |
http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/about.xml --> "configurability", "about any application or need" (aka "choice")
http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/philosophy.xml --> "flexibility", "pleasantly" and "joy" (aka "maintainability")
Last edited by TomWij on Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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steveL Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006 Posts: 5153 Location: The Peanut Gallery
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Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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grey_dot wrote: | Linux philosophy is about forking or rewriting from scratch every piece of software without actually getting things done. I'm serious
... they all suck. I really hate this thing in linux people. |
Then go and use something else, and save all of us from your whining. Why exactly anyone should work on something because you think it matters is beyond me.
Personally I'm quite happy for people to try new implementations, so long as they don't confuse "new" with "good". |
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steveL Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006 Posts: 5153 Location: The Peanut Gallery
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Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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666threesixes666 wrote: | i'm not handing out fish, emerge is. this distro should focus on flexibility, choice, configurability, and maintainability. ease of use and instillation should be covered by maintainability. |
First you want to "get him a mc fish"; now you're complaining because emerge is giving out fish? Make your mind up. |
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666threesixes666 Veteran
Joined: 31 May 2011 Posts: 1248 Location: 42.68n 85.41w
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Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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im not whining, im just explaining where im coming from, and why. people are coming at me with flawed doctrines that are self conflicting. i like the mc fish.... i like being able to remove tartar too if im in that kind of mood for the day. @ steveL there is an edit button so you could attack me too in the same post. i mean please do, ill try to respond in an epic evade. @ admins can you plz make a link for "stage3-arch-latest" for my wiki writings so i can have a link that does not move and need updating every time stage3 is changed plz. |
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aCOSwt Bodhisattva
Joined: 19 Oct 2007 Posts: 2537 Location: Hilbert space
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Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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steveL wrote: | Personally I'm quite happy for people to try new implementations, so long as they don't confuse "new" with "good". |
I agree.
Then, adding to this : So long as they don't confuse "mine" with "best",
and I think I could even feel grateful.
Of course, this is less frequent. _________________
Last edited by aCOSwt on Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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John R. Graham Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2005 Posts: 10587 Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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666threesixes666 wrote: | @ admins can you plz make a link for "stage3-arch-latest" for my wiki writings so i can have a link that does not move and need updating every time stage3 is changed plz. | I think not. You'll just have to teach them to... Wait. What was that word? It's on the tip of my tongue. No...wait. Give me a minute...
- John _________________ I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters. |
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666threesixes666 Veteran
Joined: 31 May 2011 Posts: 1248 Location: 42.68n 85.41w
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Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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why not jrg, there was a symlink to latest portage before it was migrated to emerge-webrsync... id like to be able to give a wget direct to drive being installed to instead of "download to ~/Downloads then move" |
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John R. Graham Administrator
Joined: 08 Mar 2005 Posts: 10587 Location: Somewhere over Atlanta, Georgia
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Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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I just couldn't resist, really. Forum Admins don't control this. You can ping Release Engineering on IRC at #gentoo-releng (might be #gentoo-infra, but releng will send you in the right direction) and, if they're amenable, tell 'em you're going to open a bug with the request for formal tracking.
However, this may be a bad idea. One of the questions we sometimes ask while troubleshooting some installation issues is, "What exact tarball did you download?" If there's a "latest" symlink, then this interferes with troubleshooting as the Noob we're asking won't know. You might really, sincerely, want to consider teaching your Wiki readers to fish for the latest file.
- John _________________ I can confirm that I have received between 0 and 499 National Security Letters. |
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666threesixes666 Veteran
Joined: 31 May 2011 Posts: 1248 Location: 42.68n 85.41w
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Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:11 am Post subject: |
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kernel.org gave me a method to do "fetchlatestlinux" & wraps uname -a..... as in i suggest move "date stage3 packaged" to a file... specifically append to /etc/gentoo-release (where that information belongs)
Code: | mkultra@mksrv ~ $ cat /etc/gentoo-release
Gentoo Base System release 2.2
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to
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Gentoo Base System release 2.2
stage3-amd64-20130523
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as the handbook says "yes, its ok to delete the stage3 now" before even merging anything of use, completely negating your post. (and i am not doing this to be disrespectful)
ref http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-amd64.xml?part=1&chap=11
&& reward wrong behavior, punish correct... i give stove and frying pan and pole and bait.... result
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7333790.html#7333790
whats wrong with tarball package management? portage depends on it, why denote it as DANGEROUS, or INCORRECT?
ready for correct logic on that situation? portage has a critical design flaw where it can not track externally compiled packages, or user modifications to /etc configuration files. portage wants to revert back to "broken" and "inferior" default configs. even odd versions svn git etc give exact version number when invoked with --version. portage should be able to extract information and be more flexible and more powerful than it already is, and trace back flaws in builds to hand built packages if they are depended upon by something else thats breaking from "package.provided."
just thinking aloud.... |
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TomWij Retired Dev
Joined: 04 Jul 2012 Posts: 1553
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Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:31 am Post subject: |
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666threesixes666 wrote: | whats wrong with tarball package management? |
What's right with tarballs? Why do you call it package management while it isn't? If there is something managed, what's managed here exactly?
666threesixes666 wrote: | portage depends on it, why denote it as DANGEROUS, or INCORRECT? |
Portage does a lot more, it manages it.
666threesixes666 wrote: | portage has a critical design flaw where it can not track externally compiled packages |
How would it be able to do that? Why would it need to be able to do that? You just don't externally compile packages that result in a confusing system state.
666threesixes666 wrote: | , or user modifications to /etc configuration files. |
Portage keeps track of modifications to config files with CONFIG_PROTECT, which /etc is a part of; that's why you need to run dispatch-conf or etc-update to merge the changes.
Furthermore, since everything has checksums, it even is aware to modifications made to the file it installs; try `qcheck ...` from app-portage/portage-utils
666threesixes666 wrote: | portage wants to revert back to "broken" and "inferior" default configs. |
Nope, it is showing you the default config so you can merge any new changes from upstream.
666threesixes666 wrote: | even odd versions svn git etc give exact version number when invoked with --version. |
Cool, but it's not always --version.
666threesixes666 wrote: | portage should be able to extract information |
Feel free to write a program that does this for a LFS system with hundreds of packages; 1) not every program has a version parameter, 2) the parameter is not always the same, 3) the output is not always the same.
666threesixes666 wrote: | and be more flexible and more powerful than it already is, and trace back flaws in builds to hand built packages if they are depended upon by something else thats breaking from "package.provided." |
Portage is flexible and powerful if you don't introduce inflexible matters like uncertainty or unpowerful matters like flaws in hand built packages. |
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