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XavierMiller
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 8:51 pm    Post subject: "Gentoo OVH Release 2" is bad for the Gentoo Brand Reply with quote

Hello,

OVH is a french hosting service, which proposes "Gentoo Release 2" among many operating systems: https://www.ovh.com/us/dedicated-servers/distributions/gentoo.xml?sort=all

In the French subforum, we get very frequently support inquiries, and we observe that:
1. The portage tree is obsolete and badly patched by OVH
2. OVH ask not to sync the Portage tree

Bad.

As a consequence, those users encounter many problems due to very outdated packages, with missing security updates. Each time we dig into the problems and the user try to fix them, the conclusion is always the same : scratch that installation and retry with a "vanilla" Gentoo.

Bad.

And the support from OVH is catastrophic. Last week, a user came on the French subforum because OVH support told him to downgrade portage this way :
Code:
emerge -C portage && emerge portage

Guess what : no portage any more...

Bad.

So, I think (this is my opinion) OVH give a very bad image of Gentoo.

Isn't there some policy forbidding that bad behaviour?

Can't we ask / force OVH to no more use a bad patched version of Gentoo ?
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XavierMiller,

I have a server with OVH. In December 2012 when I got mine, I did try to upgrade the provided Gentoo but it was still baselayout1 and an old gcc/glibc
All on top of a 3.x kernel though. I blew it away after 30 min and did my own install. That was more than usually challenging as the system did not reboot first time.
Well, its raid1, LVM and needed an initrd.

The real hardware is intel but for debug, you can boot your install into a qemu system running on your box but the qemu instance emulates an AMD CPU !
-march=native produces an ugly mess.

Don't get me started about their IPv6 either. The documentation is just wrong. I did point it out but I got the impression that they are not interested.

Anyway, its working now.

OVH clearly have no idea how to support Gentoo, or how to make an install. It did cross my mind to ask them to stop offering prebuilt Gentoo, since the offering was so badly broken, I wouldn't run a public facing server on it. I also thought that anyone putting Gentoo on an OVH server would follow the same path as me. Look at it, laugh, and start over. I also considered offering to help OVH fix their Gentoo but that would be my free time helping them make money.

I'm happy to provide support to OVH Gentoo users but unfortunately, only in English.
I wonder if they would notice how bad their Gentoo offering is if we supported Gentoo on their Forums?

If you would like the Gentoo Foundation to talk to OVH, please email trustees AT gentoo.org but one of them (me) already knows and isn't happy with their Gentoo.
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NeddySeagoon

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those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
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XavierMiller
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The big problem is not their patches, but the fact that OVH advertises it is a Gentoo.

Users come in the French section and don't mention this is a OVH flavour, and we see it later.
And OVH don't tell the user (s)he need to read the handbook, so when someone comes with "I want to run a .jar. I run "java blah blah" and see "java: not found". Please help", this is almost for sure a OVH user.

Nevertheless, the current Release 2 is now too old and I will ask trustees to take action (tomorrow, now it's time to go to bed).
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XavierMiller
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mail sent to the Trustees.
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boozo
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

XavierMiller wrote:
The big problem is not their patches, but the fact that OVH advertises it is a Gentoo.
(...)
I will ask trustees to take action

That's true. And I think too that a underlying problem for us : it's about our branding politics.

Despite the fact that the license provides this possibility, they use our notoriety for commercial use but as far as i know they do not provide a real quality support for their customers. :evil:

btw, on a closer look to this page, they seems to not support or sponsor our foundation in financial terms :( (but I don't know... maybe they donate various services or equipments to us and want to remain anonymous and I wouldn't want to make a mistake about that)
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aCOSwt
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm...

- How many tons of *badly* recorded clips of *crappy* music produced through *extremely badly* tuned, *wrongly* maintained hardware, in which clearly and distinctly appears the brand of some renown top-quality amplifier / microphone / loudspeaker / piano... manufacturer, do we get ?

Can the owner of the brand do anything efficient against this ?

- Do you remember Supertramp ? The highly particular sound of a piano they had especially fiddled but was still showing the name of its original manufacturer ?

Could Steinway(C)(TM) demand them to hide its name because Supertramp's piano was definitely not sounding THE way Steinway WANT their pianos to sound ?

Of course I do not support OVH in any way and I do agree with you that things like advising to emerge -C portage && emerge portage is more than stupid, it is actually disgusting!

I just want to highlight the extreme difficulty to act efficiently against that *wrong* practice.

- The idea I would suggest is to study how the "gentoo" production can be somehow registered as "Propriété littéraire et artistique"
Copyrights aim at protecting the investment. Not the idea. Mind about patrimonial rights. Not about moral rights.

What you are (rightly) complaining about is definitely *not* a problem of patrimonial right. It's formally speaking a matter of moral. (Aesthetic if you prefer)

If the gentoo production could be covered by some PLA, then gentoo would be able to legally and efficiently oppose to any sort of usage / display / recording / implementation... that gentoo would state *wrong* for whatever reason that gentoo would even not have to justify. Saying "that practice is wrong I don't want that period!" Would be enough.

The problem you are concerned with Xavier is a true moral problem. Not a patrimonial one. => PLA is the only possible formal solution to it.
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boozo
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
(...)
Could Steinway(C)(TM) demand them to hide its name because Supertramp's piano was definitely not sounding THE way Steinway WANT their pianos to sound ?
(...)
I just want to highlight the extreme difficulty to act efficiently against that *wrong* practice.

- The idea I would suggest is to study how the "gentoo" production can be somehow registered as "Propriété littéraire et artistique"
Copyrights aim at protecting the investment. Not the idea. Mind about patrimonial rights. Not about moral rights.

What you are (rightly) complaining about is definitely *not* a problem of patrimonial right. It's formally speaking a matter of moral. (Aesthetic if you prefer)
(...)

:lol: ok I understand what you mean and your analogy.
Then just to round off an angle : Supertramp(©) haven't recorded an album with Steinway's(©) name in the title... :wink:
So anyway, I'm definitely not a lawyer and subtle are the differences between US and EU rights in this, but I'm agree with you that is not a partimonial rights question.

Btw, if I'm referring to the Gentoo Linux copyrights, maybe the trustees can do something or try to discuss ?
Quote:
4. Use of Gentoo name

You are permitted to use the Gentoo name in computer-related content, provided that:

- you acknowledge that the name "Gentoo" is a trademark of Gentoo Foundation, Inc., and
- you do not entitle any software project or computer-related product "Gentoo" or have "Gentoo" appear within its name, and
- the fully-qualified domain name for your software project or computer-related products does not contain "Gentoo", and
- you clearly state that the content, project, site, product or any other type of item with which the "Gentoo" name is associated is not part of the Gentoo project and is not directed or managed by Gentoo Foundation, Inc.

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steveL
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I think it's terrible, and at least someone should get in touch with them and ask them to keep their Gentoo offering current: point out the myriad support channels, and suggest they hire someone with Gentoo admin experience, if they don't have the current knowledge.

However, as stated there's not much anyone can do, since they aren't breaking any of the trademark terms, afaict, nor any copyrights. The most one could do is publicise their lack of response and capability, should they refuse to remedy the situation. IOW resort to social pressure, if it is impossible to unilaterally withdraw the trademark.

I find it quite ironic though: this is exactly the situation the Ion3 developer, tuomov, complained about and for exactly the same reasons. It made his software look bad, and led to a massive support burden on him, as users on "current" bindists with old versions of his software, expected help from him, and didn't look favourably to the idea of downloading and compiling a new version.

Why would they: they're binary distro end-users. Of course such old versions are impossible to support: that's why new versions have been released to fix the bugs, and both the user and the project lose out, because a downstream commercial entity can't be bothered, past making a sale.

It's ironic because so many of the Gentoo community joined in the witch-hunt against tuomov at the time, without bothering to find out what the issue was.
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