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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Yamazaki"]
BoneKracker wrote:
notageek wrote:


Contrary to the crap posted in Naib's unattributed excerpt, Japan was nowhere close to surrendering -- not without serious pressure of one sort or another. Hell, they didn't even surrender after the first bomb had been dropped. They were readying a biological weapon to hit San Diego. They were brutal, sadistic, racist, genocidal aggressors and oppressors operating entirely outside the laws of war. No apology is necessary for taking whatever action was most expedient and spared the most Allied soldiers, to bring Imperial Japan to its knees as quickly as possible.


Well...."readying" and "making effective use of" are not the same things. At that point they were dicking around with trans-Pacific balloon bombs, which weren't much effective beyond starting some brush fires. That biological weapon they were "readying" was a crap shoot. They also had an atomic bomb in the works.

Too many people try to analyze WW2 through their modern POV. It wasn't point and click warfare back then.

I agree. It is impossible for us today to have a deep understanding of the context. I disagree with your assessment of Imperial Japan's biological weapons capability, and of its intent being experimental; they were indeed "readying" them for use, and they were very close to doing so. This, of course, has nothing to do with why the A-bomb was used, because the U.S. was unaware at the time.

The bio-weapons were already being used, at least in that they were be tested by hitting entire Chinese towns with them (and it's no myth that victims of this were dissected alive without anesthesia). We're talking bubonic plague, dengue fever, typhus, cholera, etc.

There was also a written, detailed plan to launch an attack on U.S. Pacific coast cities and the Panama Canal using these weapons, delivered from a submarine-launched aircraft, which the Imperial Navy had in use for two years at that point. Dropped on San Francisco, San Diego, or Los Angeles, such weapons could have killed literally millions. The first of these missions was actually being rehearsed, when it was called off to attack U.S. warships suspected to be gathering at Ulithi atoll.

As far as I know, the Japanese have left the ways of Imperial Japan far behind, and done decades of penance -- entire generations of penance. I for one am glad to see them beginning to put it all behind them and show a renewed fighting spirit, as it may be needed in the years to come.
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Either I need to learn to communicate more clearly or you need to learn to read.
True. You need to improve your comprehension skills.

Yes, dropping the bomb saved Allied lived and brought an end to the war. But I see nothing to substantiate your claim that this was a moral and ethical thing to do. You're just trolling now.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Either I need to learn to communicate more clearly or you need to learn to read.
True. You need to improve your comprehension skills.

Yes, dropping the bomb saved Allied lived and brought an end to the war. But I see nothing to substantiate your claim that this was a moral and ethical thing to do. You're just trolling now.

Those are not the reasons I said it was a moral and ethical thing to do, so why would you even include them in a response questioning whether it was? Is that sort of a side-band strawman or something?

First of all, it was ethical because the Japanese were engaged in Total War, against about a dozen nations, the U.S. happening to be about the only one capable of defending herself against their aggression. There are no rules in Total War, and that was the context they established, so fuck you and anybody who questions anything we did to defeat them, and fuck the horse you rode in on.

That stands alone as an adequate answer to all concerns regarding this, but I will continue with frosting on the cake.

Secondly, it was ethical even had it occurred within the context of the Law of War (which it did not) because the dropping of those bombs don't even come close to what the Japanese did. It was in fact a proportional response and necessary to bring Imperial Japan's reign of terror to an end. They had been weakened, perhaps even knocked onto their back foot, but given any breathing room, they'd have been able to continue. This was a knockout blow, exactly when the opportunity presented itself.

Third, while there is no justification for considering this outside the context of Total War, and while there is certainly no justification for considering it outside the context of the Law of War, even if one does so this proves to have been a justifiable act in the context of any framework of human morality. Even taken out of context, in artificial light as an isolated decision pretending Japan was not the aggressor, that Japan had not waged a war that amounts to a four-year succession of massive war crimes and some of the worst atrocities ever perpetrated by man, and pretending they were no threat to anyone, even that bullshit context which nobody has any business even constructing in their mind, it proves to have been a moral act, because it very probably saved more innocent civilian lives than it took, and prevented far more suffering than it caused. If you don't think so, compare the number of civilians who died in the initial bombing of Iraq (use the Desert Storm numbers, which predate our effective use of smart bombs) to the number who died during the 2003 invasion and subsequent occupation, Then multiply those invasion/occupation numbers by about 50 because of the Japanese fanatical defensive posture and militarization of the civilian population.

But paragraph number one is the only justification anybody needs, because it alone is enough.
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Last edited by Bones McCracker on Fri May 17, 2013 5:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No you're trolling.

Your claim is based on Allied morality and ethics is better than the Japanese and you saved them from themselves by dropping the bomb. Ridiculous.
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stop replying before I'm done editing my posts. See above, you TROLL.
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every reply you post, only reiterates that you were no better than the Japanese. And you squished an underdog with nukes. And you're now justifying that as ethical, moral.

You are THE troll.
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, you.

Troll.

You know it's true. You're not even a good troll. You're like The Strawman Troll. :roll:
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No YOU!

Captain Trollsman, First Class.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're not even "Sergeant Strawman". You're more like "Corporal Punishment" or "Private Parts".
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That alone calls for your demotion to Drill Sergeant Pullsoutofassman.
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think somebody needs a comfort woman ;)
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congratulations. You just duped on the same thread.
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, the embarrasment. Is it seppuku time? :oops:
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not required. I'm sure there will be other, better opportunities.
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

groundhog day :) lets start the discussion again
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's go back a little futher, and start over with little notageek's mother forcing him to watch Doordarshan (or better yet, opting for an abortion). :P
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[4] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[5] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion
Not inflammatory, extraneous or off-topic. Doesn't appear to have intent of provocation or disruption.

However, I do see some other comments which are inflammatory, extraneous, off-topic, and the seeming intent of provoking an emotional response or otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
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PostPosted: Sat May 18, 2013 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

notageek wrote:
Ban him.

Ban Ki Moon him. With words and shit.
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