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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Incidentally, anyone else can take the bet too. If I lose, avatar sentences to be served consecutively. Are any of the pro-Zimmerman posters brave enough?

Last edited by McGruff on Sat May 04, 2013 3:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
You claim Zimmerman did not do anything wrong. I claim he did. What's the test? The test is that he gets convicted of an offense - or not. That's simple and fair. Allowing yourself a loophole to weasel out of the bet if he is convicted of a lesser charge is not fair.

I knew you wouldn't go through with it.

You're the one not going through with it, and everybody knows it.

I never said he did or didn't do anything at all wrong. That's a strawman. If you want to talk about what I said, then talk about what I actually said, not some bullshit you made up so that you can weasel out of what you said.

You, on the other hand did claim that Zimmerman "shot some kid to death" (and it is reasonable to presume you are implying that he did so unjustifiably). So that is what we are talking about here. Not whether Zimmerman spat on the sidewalk or has offensively long nose hair, but what you were talking about: the question of whether Zimmerman unjustifiably shot Martin. Do you dispute this?

The test of whether Zimmerman unjustifiably shot Marting is, as you originally suggested, whether or not he is convicted of doing so. Given that his admittedly intentional shooting of Martin caused Martin's death, the entire question is whether Zimmerman was, or was not, justified in shooting him. I say he was. I believe you have been saying he was not. The test is whether the jury convicts Martin of doing so.

Intentionally shooting someone to death without planning or lying in wait is 2nd Degree Murder. If he is convicted of that, then you win. I'll even bend over further since you're being such a pussy about it. I'll even give you the win if he is convicted of ANY degree of murder (i.e., 3rd degree, 4th degree, etc.).

Furthermore, unless you are willing to be subject to the same penalty if you lose (i.e. forfeiture of your avatar, or someone else dictating what avatar you shall use for a period of time, as may be agreed), then you are doing nothing but trolling here, like a child. So are you going to man up, or are you going to continue to be sniveling, quibbling wimp. If it's the latter, nobody's interested in hearing it.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
For all intents and purposes, that's a win for him.
Barring evidence not made public, anything short of not guilty due to self-defense is vigilante justice. Our supposed "best system" is a joke.
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought so. mcgruff talks the talk but can't walk the walk.

Pfffft.... :roll:
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
For all intents and purposes, that's a win for him.
Barring evidence not made public, anything short of not guilty due to self-defense is vigilante justice. Our supposed "best system" is a joke.

That's why he opted to completely waive the right to a Stand Your Ground hearing. There is immense political pressure on the local authorities to knock his dick in the dirt, for the sake of political correctness. The whole liberal community seriously embarrassed itself, prematurely ejaculating all over themselves. He could get screwed in a hearing before a solitary judge or judicial panel. That could skew his chances in court by prejudicing potential jurors against him. He has a solid defense with all the facts and evidence on his side, so unless they get a jury with some black racist on it, he's going to be completely exonerated.

There is a chance a jury could be poorly selected, that a juror could be manipulated, or that an activist or Federally pressured judge could bias a jury. Those, I think, could only lead to a conviction on a minor, lesser included charge along the lines of reckless endangerment. A conviction of manslaughter or anything more serious would be a serious miscarriage of justice.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
that is what we are talking about here. Not whether Zimmerman spat on the sidewalk or has offensively long nose hair, but what you were talking about: the question of whether Zimmerman unjustifiably shot Martin. Do you dispute this?


Any form of unlawful killing - murder or manslaughter.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
For example, did you know Zimmerman wasn't supposed to carry a gun?

Why, then, am I reading that he had a concealed weapons permit?
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're back-pedaling. If you include manslaughter as part of you being "right", then you are saying that you don't think he was doing anything wrong by being out there patrolling his neighborhood with a concealed weapon. I don't believe that's your position, unless you've changed it.

Nevertheless, since you're being such a pussy about it, just to keep you from continuing to challenge people to lopsided bets and then running away while fapping like some kind of deranged 8th grader with a compuslive masturbation problem, I will agree to even this.

Here are the terms:

If Zimmerman is convicted of manslaughter or something more serious (i.e. murder), then I will replace my avatar with one of your choosing, and I will use it for 30 days. If Zimmerman is NOT convicted of manslaughter or something more serious, then you will replace your avatar with one of my choosing and use it for 30 days.

The avatar chosen must not be something illegal in the loser's jurisdiction, something that violates the forum guidelines, or something offensive or likely to result in complaints. It also must not include text.

There, I have bent over backward to accommodate your quibbling and efforts to bias the bet in your favor. Now are you man enough? Are we agreed finally?
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have a bet. The same bet I suggested in the first place. The point of contention has always been that Trayvon Martin was unlawfully killed.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Why, then, am I reading that he had a concealed weapons permit?


Neighbourhood watch guys are told not to carry guns, not to directly confront a suspect, and to follow police instructions. Can you guess why?
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, what an interesting point you bring up. It caused me to do some reading.

Neighborhood Watch programs in Florida specifically instruct their members to be unarmed. But that's not the real offense here.

It seems that after the 911 dispatcher specifically told Zimmerman to stay in his car and merely shadow Martin, he got out and confronted the teen. This, right here, is when the whole situation went to shit. When he is out on neighborhood watch and talking to 911, the dispatcher is in charge of his actions, not him.

To find Zimmerman innocent of any wrongdoing, it needs to be proven that Martin represented an imminent danger to someone's safety.
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
We have a bet. The same bet I suggested in the first place. The point of contention has always been that Trayvon Martin was unlawfully killed.

We have a bet.

No, you were trying to be like an eel in Jello and make the point of contention into "Zimmerman did nothing wrong." You're quibbling even now. Manslaughter is not an "unlawful killing", which implies someone is willfully violating the law. Manslaughter is an accidental killing in which someone is partially culpable because their failure to act with due care was a contributing factor. Nevertheless, just to corner you into actually betting and not running away as usual, I have agreed even to bet that he will not be convicted of that.

The court will decide who loses this bet, but it will boil down to this: the reason Trayvon Martin is dead is because he savagely attacked George Zimmerman, not because Zimmerman was patrolling his neighborhood, not because Trayvon Martin was black, not because Trayvon Martin was high on pot and wearing a hoodie, and not because a butterly flapped its wings in Madagascar. Martin is the one who crossed the line and escalated the situation to one of violence, and he had no right to do so. Zimmerman, on the other hand, had the right to defend himself from that brutal assault.

So we'll see how it turns out.
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Oh, what an interesting point you bring up. It caused me to do some reading.

Neighborhood Watch programs in Florida specifically instruct their members to be unarmed. But that's not the real offense here.

It seems that after the 911 dispatcher specifically told Zimmerman to stay in his car and merely shadow Martin, he got out and confronted the teen. This, right here, is when the whole situation went to shit. When he is out on neighborhood watch and talking to 911, the dispatcher is in charge of his actions, not him.

To find Zimmerman innocent of any wrongdoing, it needs to be proven that Martin represented an imminent danger to someone's safety.

He's not being charged with "Any Wrongdoing". He's being charged with 2nd Degree Murder. Also, I wouldn't bet on those 'facts' as you've read them. Although Zimmerman has already be tried by the PC Brigade media, he will now be tried in a court of law. The sad thing is that the case was so widely publicized, and with such bias, that it will be impossible to assemble an unbiased jury.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
wswartzendruber wrote:
Why, then, am I reading that he had a concealed weapons permit?


Neighbourhood watch guys are told not to carry guns, not to directly confront a suspect, and to follow police instructions. Can you guess why?

That might be a basis upon which to characterize his actions as reckless or negligent, but not unlawful. You're going down. :P
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah. Even Zimmerman wouldn't take that bet. Waiving stand-your-ground immunity after insisting so loudly that he was the one attacked is a desperate act. He's either hoping to plea bargain (he'll be refused because (a) the case has such a high profile and justice needs to be seen to be done and (b) because the prosecution have no need to make a bargain) or he thinks he'll have a better chance to influence a jury. Who just saw him waive immunity after claiming to be attacked. Doh!

PS: I know you hate science but THC concentration in the blood is a scientific measurement. Trayvon had smoked a joint at some point in the past but he wasn't high at the time of his murder.
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only you gots teh Scyents! :o

It's not particularly relevant that he was high or not. The fact that he was a drug user just goes to whether it was reasonable for Zimmerman to perceive him as a "suspicious" person. So does the rest of Martin's history (such as beating the fuck out of other people, being a criminal, etc.).

We'll just have to wait and see how it turns out. We have placed our bets.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
To find Zimmerman innocent of any wrongdoing, it needs to be proven that Martin represented an imminent danger to someone's safety.
"Any wrongdoing" is a far cry from wrongful death, manslaughter, or worse. And as a marine on the front line, would you like Billary telling you what to or not to do via sat phone? I thought not.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
We have placed our bets.


I salute your stupi... I mean bravery. :)
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PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2013 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah. Just bookmark this page so we can see it again after the trial.
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's fascinating that you're both so confident.
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can get in on the bet too.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
It's fascinating that you're both so confident.


Zimmerman can't prove his version of events (if he could he'd have tried for the waiver). That's really all there is to it, from a legal perspective. We're left with a kid returning home from a local shop who got killed because a neighbourhood watch guy failed to follow neighbourhood watch protocol.

The protocol is partly designed to prevent gung-ho amateurs getting hurt confronting real criminals whom they're not trained to deal with and also to stop them becoming agents provocateurs. They're supposed to help prevent crimes not be the cause of new ones.
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They both engaged in escalating behavior. Don't start none, there won't be none ...
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Zimmerman can't prove his version of events (if he could he'd have tried for the waiver). That's really all there is to it, from a legal perspective.
Things may have changed since 2008, but last I heard, burden of proof is on the prosecution.
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
No he was a kid on his way home from the shops who got shot by an asshole with a gun.

I know you got sent a copy of the memo but I guess it must have burned up in your insanity-field.

You forgot the part where the kid was on top of the asshole, pounding the back of the asshole's head against the concrete sidewalk.


it's all kind of murky, no?

however, a guy was driving around a neighbourhood with a gun shot and killed someone without one. I guess black kids should really use the conceal and carry laws themselves. That's the answer!

It is funny how some guy in a car with a gun ended up underneath someone else and was getting punched in the face. I am usually neither armed nor in a vehicle and I can avoid that in big bad London. I am not even denying that didn't happen, just saying it's funny. Not "ha, ha" funny, but "crazy" funny.
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