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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
question: are crossbows legal in England?

Only if they're less than four inches long.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
Wow! Muslims and jobseekers all in one story... If I was right-wing I'd probably just have come in my pants.


You refute the veracity of the article I presume ?

No, he just felt an overwhelming compulsion to blurt something, regardless of whether it made any sense.

Also, I think maybe he's one of these people.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
Still haven't answered my question.


Yeah I did. Who cares what he says?


Nope. Just yes or no. Let's try again - without a diatribe or an attack on the source.

Do you dispute the accuracy of the story ?


i don't. so? do you think benefits should have free speech strings?
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
Still haven't answered my question.


Yeah I did. Who cares what he says?


Nope. Just yes or no. Let's try again - without a diatribe or an attack on the source.

Do you dispute the accuracy of the story ?


i don't. so? do you think benefits should have free speech strings?

No, and I don't believe gave you any reason to think I do. Or maybe I missed something I said.

I do, however, think a free society is entitled to not fund its own destruction and to banish individuals plotting to enslave its people. Don't you?
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
I do, however, think a free society is entitled to not fund its own destruction and to banish individuals plotting to enslave its people. Don't you?


Is that what he's doing?

In a free country you're allowed to do whatever the hell you like within the law. That includes campaigning for muslamism or whatever the hell it was. It's hard to tell with a comedy newspaper, the Sun, as the only source.

Incidentally, he has complained about their misrepresentation of his views in that article.

Rabble-rousing, racist, and downright bad journalism worries me more.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes that's what he's advocating, in addition to the assassination of two heads of state. Free speech stops when you start violating the rights of others.

Regardless, nobody has made him stop. This is just social pressure, which is how such borderline cases are best handled (at least, initially). He should perhaps be charged with a crime and sent to jail for calling for the assassination of the Prime Minister, though, if they got that on tape.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
energyman76b wrote:
question: are crossbows legal in England?

Only if they're less than four inches long.


ZING!!
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Juniper wrote:
I fail to see the relevance.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That might have sounded funny in more than one way, but I'm referring to silly laws in many U.S. states making it illegal to carry a knife with a blade longer than four inches (like you can't kill or maim somebody with a four-inch knife just as well as with a five-inch knife or an eight-inch knife).

If they knew what they were talking about, they'd make it illegal to carry a blade smaller than 8 inches. Beyond that length, the leverage makes them impractical to fight with and difficult to conceal.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
You want to have a serious conversation about the accuracy of... the Sun...?!!


Just try it - yes or no.

Also, out of interest wonder what would happen if this was a member of the BNP/EDL
spouting similar rhetoric.

Anyway as BK pointed out, free speech is fine and dandy, it crosses a line when it starts to advocate
the destruction of the society that fosters it.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On seeking to destroy.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Yes that's what he's advocating, in addition to the assassination of two heads of state. Free speech stops when you start violating the rights of others.

Regardless, nobody has made him stop. This is just social pressure, which is how such borderline cases are best handled (at least, initially). He should perhaps be charged with a crime and sent to jail for calling for the assassination of the Prime Minister, though, if they got that on tape.


about previous post. it was aimed at john-boy not you (and that's clear).

If he is calling for the assassination of a head of state and the call is credible, he should be charged with the relevant crime.

As for advocating for the destruction of the state and institutions that allows free speech, that should be allowed. But the point is that his muddled and silly ideas won't gain much traction. Any advocacy of violence should be dealt with accordingly.

The trouble is that the state here gives him some ammunition. His vile ideas gained traction when the UK went off and attacked nations with little provocation. Along with the nasty, he is bringing up some rather big issues. Of course, I am on the anti-war, anti-jihad side of this debate. But, in free speech, you have to take the good with the bad.

JB wrote:

Also, out of interest wonder what would happen if this was a member of the BNP/EDL
spouting similar rhetoric.


As long as they don't advocate violence, it should be fine. As was stated by the European Commission on Human Rights :lol:
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
Just try it - yes or no.


I've already dealt with this nasty, rabble-rousing, racist article in detail. You want us to blindly accept its nasty, rabble-rousing, racist views as if they were true. Not going to happen.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
Just try it - yes or no.


I've already dealt with this nasty, rabble-rousing, racist article in detail. You want us to blindly accept its nasty, rabble-rousing, racist views as if they were true. Not going to happen.


Just yes or no - what's the issue ? Juniper has already nailed his colours to the mast,
he believes that the article is true and that it's OK to live off the state * while holding views
that are contrary, and may possibly be viewed as detrimental to the state as a whole.

Also racist ? Islam ? Don't think so - I could convert now, if I could find two (or is it three ?)
witnesses. It doesn't hold prejudice, also religion != race.

Oh and :

mcgruff wrote:
racist !!!!! racist !!!!!


Game over sunshine.


* and possibly earn more than most who work.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
Just try it - yes or no.


I've already dealt with this nasty, rabble-rousing, racist article in detail. You want us to blindly accept its nasty, rabble-rousing, racist views as if they were true. Not going to happen.


Just yes or no - what's the issue ? Juniper has already nailed his colours to the mast,
he believes that the article is true and that it's OK to live off the state * while holding views
that are contrary, and may possibly be viewed as detrimental to the state as a whole.

Also racist ? Islam ? Don't think so - I could convert now, if I could find two (or is it three ?)
witnesses. It doesn't hold prejudice, also religion != race.

Oh and :

mcgruff wrote:
racist !!!!! racist !!!!!


Game over sunshine.


* and possibly earn more than most who work.


Hold on cowboy. I never said it is ok to live off the state. I am saying that the two are disconnected. I certainly don't think he should live off the state, but that isn't because of what he says. if he is an able bodied male with no health problems, he should work.

Hence, the problem is runaway benefits.
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John-Boy
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My mistake -

juniper wrote:
he should work. Hence, the problem is benefits.


And we also agree.
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juniper
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
My mistake -

juniper wrote:
he should work. Hence, the problem is benefits.


And we also agree.


so, it appears that we only disagree on whether or not benefits should be revoked based on something said. I say DEFINITELY no. Consider the problems that would cause.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
Hold on cowboy. I never said it is ok to live off the state. I am saying that the two are disconnected. I certainly don't think he should live off the state, but that isn't because of what he says. if he is an able bodied male with no health problems, he should work.

Hence, the problem is runaway benefits.

He is advocating that able-bodied Muslim males don't work, in order to inflict economic harm on society, while freeing them to engage in other unspecified Jihadist activity. In fact, he's telling them it's their sacred duty. I'm pretty sure what he's advocating is fraud, and that inciting such criminal activity, especially on a widespread basis, is a serious crime (and even more serious in that the massive fraud he's inciting is with the intent of causing economic harm contributing to the collapse of society and the establishment of a fundamentalist Islamic theocracy).

So this does not at all qualify as "free speech".
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
Just yes or no - what's the issue ?


I told you. The Sun isn't a serious, fact-based newspaper. I don't know what he said but I do know that the Sun has chosen to try to make something out of it. It's extremely naive to accept Sun "news" reporting as fact. It's not their area of expertise.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
Just yes or no - what's the issue ?


I told you. No, I do not believe that the article holds any truth. The video was most likely faked.


Sigh - I'll help then - see quote.

Ok - next question then, given that you accept the above, why ?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Making up quotes now?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Making up quotes now?


Ok - have it your way. Back to square one -

Yes or no.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
juniper wrote:
Hold on cowboy. I never said it is ok to live off the state. I am saying that the two are disconnected. I certainly don't think he should live off the state, but that isn't because of what he says. if he is an able bodied male with no health problems, he should work.

Hence, the problem is runaway benefits.

He is advocating that able-bodied Muslim males don't work, in order to inflict economic harm on society, while freeing them to engage in other unspecified Jihadist activity. In fact, he's telling them it's their sacred duty. I'm pretty sure what he's advocating is fraud, and that inciting such criminal activity, especially on a widespread basis, is a serious crime (and even more serious in that the massive fraud he's inciting is with the intent of causing economic harm contributing to the collapse of society and the establishment of a fundamentalist Islamic theocracy).

So this does not at all qualify as "free speech".


I don't know if advocating fraud or inciting criminal activity is a crime, but if it is he should be charged with that.

The reason why I don't want the govt to be able to muzzle speech to collect welfare is that it is hard to draw the line. Perhaps they can't criticize the govt at all? Just a bad scenario.

But yes, if he is breaking the law, he should be charged.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
Yes or no.


The Sun is not a reliable source so who knows?

If it is true (I do know that the guy disputes the Sun's claims) I still reserve the right to piss on the Sun for exploiting these comments in a nasty little rabble-rousing, anti-muslim article.

I've probably heard worse on OTW.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
juniper wrote:
Hold on cowboy. I never said it is ok to live off the state. I am saying that the two are disconnected. I certainly don't think he should live off the state, but that isn't because of what he says. if he is an able bodied male with no health problems, he should work.

Hence, the problem is runaway benefits.

He is advocating that able-bodied Muslim males don't work, in order to inflict economic harm on society, while freeing them to engage in other unspecified Jihadist activity. In fact, he's telling them it's their sacred duty. I'm pretty sure what he's advocating is fraud, and that inciting such criminal activity, especially on a widespread basis, is a serious crime (and even more serious in that the massive fraud he's inciting is with the intent of causing economic harm contributing to the collapse of society and the establishment of a fundamentalist Islamic theocracy).

So this does not at all qualify as "free speech".


I don't know if advocating fraud or inciting criminal activity is a crime, but if it is he should be charged with that.

The reason why I don't want the govt to be able to muzzle speech to collect welfare is that it is hard to draw the line. Perhaps they can't criticize the govt at all? Just a bad scenario.

But yes, if he is breaking the law, he should be charged.

I can agree with that. I'd add that there are other ways for societies to deal with problems than making and enforcing laws. One of them the exertion of internal social pressures. The PC Brigade is the premier example of this. In this case, multi-culti fappers ought to acknowledge than there are times when they have to accept that what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and when some Jihadist asshole start flapping his lips like this, he should be prosecuted for any actual crimes of course, but there is nothing wrong with him being subjected to derision and public scorn for engaging in behavior that society generally finds unacceptable.
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