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Clad in Sky
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a sidenote: Why would you have to go to Mint? There's MATE in portage (or an overlay), which is a fork of gnome2.

52midnight, making Gentoo easier for newcomers is a good idea. Perhaps you should participate in the Gentoo documentation and weed out dead ends. Personally, I've never run into one with the documentation available, but if there's an obvious blunder in there, it'd be nice if it got corrected.
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52midnight
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

> I think in your place I'd recommend Cinnamon Mint

Yes, I took a long, hard look at Mint but ultimately decided against it. Fact is I don't like any of the 'buntu's - it's their philosophy, I guess; the new go-it-alone graphics server scares the willies out of me, especially as the project is run by a billionaire; and numerous other things.

> there is a lot of good documentation and these (very helpful) forums.

I've always praised Gentoo for its docn, but much of it is very out-of-date and due for a rewrite. And as I said in another post, it's always suffered from the major flaw of interspersing essential procedural instructions with verbose explanations of fundamental topics, such as partitioning and IP address formats, which should be hived off to other pages. It makes going back to look for forgotten info a nightmare, since it's buried in a morass of irrelevant material. Alternatively, (if you'll pardon my waving my own flag again) it could be treated similarly to what I've done:

http://52midnight.com/gentoo/isa-install.html

And I've always found its forums friendly and helpful, which is why I'm bothering to criticize - I regard Gentoo as one of the most valuable pieces of IP on the 'net.

> Perhaps you should participate in the Gentoo documentation and weed out dead ends.

I've thought about it; never done such, and wouldn't want to step in where I'm not wanted. I thought I might complete the present project (the link above) and see if it could serve as a basis for direct contribution.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

52midnight wrote:
And as I said in another post, it's always suffered from the major flaw of interspersing essential procedural instructions with verbose explanations of fundamental topics, such as partitioning and IP address formats, which should be hived off to other pages. It makes going back to look for forgotten info a nightmare, since it's buried in a morass of irrelevant material.


Then why don't you use the Quick Install Guide, which is at the top of the Gentoo Documentation List?
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52midnight
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

> Then why don't you use the Quick Install Guide, which is at the top of the Gentoo Documentation List?

Because the new procedure I've defined doesn't use the Installation CD, doesn't require chrooting and all the rest, and is much quicker and simpler:

http://52midnight.com/gentoo/isa-install.html
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

52midnight wrote:
> Then why don't you use the Quick Install Guide, which is at the top of the Gentoo Documentation List?

Because the new procedure I've defined doesn't use the Installation CD, doesn't require chrooting and all the rest, and is much quicker and simpler:

I don't see what point you're trying to make about the CD, normal Gentoo has always been possible to install from any running Linux system with the basic POSIX commands...

Your method avoids chroot by rendering the existing Linux install on disk unusable, by altering its fstab to mount the Gentoo partition as root (which will now also break without an initramfs). You tell users to use the ancient ext2 filesystem and then later on tell them to install xfstools without explanation, and delete their root password. This may be quicker and simpler to install — by some pedantic strict definition of those words — but anyone following these instructions is set for hours of grief later on when they try to actually use their now extremely brittle system.
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52midnight
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

> I don't see what point you're trying to make about the CD, normal Gentoo has always been possible to install from any running Linux system with the basic POSIX commands...

And newcomers know about these things ...

> Your method avoids chroot by rendering the existing Linux install on disk unusable

Wrong. I've done it several times and it works fine.

> by altering its fstab to mount the Gentoo partition as root

Wrong again. No alteration to the existing system is required other than a new entry in grub.conf. A new fstab is required for the new installation, though given that this is the first draft of a new project, this is not as explicit as a final version would require.

> (which will now also break without an initramfs).

Wrong again; the initramfs is copied over with the kernel.

> You tell users to use the ancient ext2 filesystem

Because it's mature, stable, and perfectly usable it's "ancient" and therefore contemptible?

> and then later on tell them to install xfstools without explanation,

The idea is to get them to a working installation without irrelevant explanations.

> and delete their root password.

As does the original Gentoo documentation.

> This may be quicker and simpler to install — by some pedantic strict definition of those words

Ordinary dictionary definitions are perfectly applicable.

> but anyone following these instructions is set for hours of grief later on when they try to actually use their now extremely brittle system.

Wrong again. My installations are very robust, and given that the remainder of the instructions haven't yet been uploaded, you're talking out of your rear end.

Anyhow, given that you're rated a "Veteran", you've convinced me not to bother getting involved with the Gentoo development community.
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merged a thread (the previous twelve posts) originally entitled Gentoo Xorg docn versus the real world, as it was looking more and more like it fits right in here.

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Chiitoo
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:55 pm    Post subject: ><)))°€ Reply with quote

52midnight,

Please do note that the 'ranks' or 'ratings' are solely dependant on a user's post-count, excluding administrators etc., and even if it was a developer, one such does not speak for everyone. Look at me! Mine says 'guru', but it really is only what it is: a post-count thingy. I'm the Noob Unlimited, now and forever.

What I guess I'm maybe trying to say, is that try not to get discouraged so easily, or you'll surely not last long! Not even here, where people are mostly very nice to each other (do take care if you happen to stroll close enough to the 'off the wall', though).

Your idea looks interesting, at least as an idea. I haven't yet read more into it to give any feedback, but I shall try to do so at some point of time!


And that, of course, is just my opinion. ^^;
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rorgoroth
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, since I have nothing better to do atm I shall reply to the current topic here to :)

I agree with Chiitoo, don't be discouraged.
But, on the other hand my view is much like the Arch Linux communities view on "spin-offs" or "easy installs" - Don't like them too much since a user not familiar with the distro is skipping important information and choices that could be beneficial to later tinkering or problem fixing.

Again, don't be discouraged, any community effort is good community effort (well, unless it is some kind of dangerous misinformation or such :D).
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52midnight
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

> Please do note that the 'ranks' or 'ratings' are solely dependant on a user's post-count

Ah! OK, thx.

> What I guess I'm maybe trying to say, is that try not to get discouraged so easily

Over the years (more than a dozen with Lx) I've made a few attempts to contribute to projects, but each time came up against an Insect Urine who seemed to be a senior adminythingy, so have quietly disappeared. Be very glad to find things better here.

> Your idea looks interesting, at least as an idea.

Not sure how useful it is in the overall scheme of things. I'm coming back to Gentoo - first time was seven years back, and I still recall the frustration of rereading yards of docn to clarify odd points. This time I'm taking it slowly and critically, since I want to pass on what I'm doing to nontech friends, hence the pages on my site - new and very incomplete.

> I haven't yet read more into it to give any feedback, but I shall try to do so at some point of time!

Be grateful for any feedback, esp if it's constructive.

> "easy installs" - .. is skipping important information and choices that could be beneficial to later tinkering or problem fixing.

Agreed; but Gentoo is SUCH a big step for newcomers from other distros that I believe it's important for them to prove that they CAN do it (and I'd never recommend it to first-time Lx users - always recommend a Knoppix LiveCD as a first step, then a mainline distro). What I want to encourage them to do is NOT a one-time "there you are" installation, but repeat the process three or four times because of the important things you learn; and they'll only do this if the first stages are clear and easy to repeat - hence my advice to use FEATURES="buildpkg" to avoid repeatedly downloading and re-emerging all the basic stuff.

> unless it is some kind of dangerous misinformation or such

Which is all too easy to do inadverdently unless you have constructive, critical feedback.
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sundialsvc4
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, seems to me that the whole thread ("Gentoo will die ...") is kinda wrongly-titled. Just get involved. Make it better, whatever "better" is. Make an improvement and spread the good word.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sundialsvc4 wrote:
Yeah, seems to me that the whole thread ("Gentoo will die ...") is kinda wrongly-titled. Just get involved. Make it better, whatever "better" is. Make an improvement and spread the good word.


I completely agree with this. I'm not a Gentoo developer per se, but I've recognized other distributions that appear more accessible over the years simply by being more "simple". The past few weeks I've been toying with building a sort of universal installation method much like the tried and burned Gentoo Installer using precompiled packages and genkernel. I haven't written an installer but cutting out all the compile times you can get a system up and going in about 15-20 minutes. Add in a GUI installer on a liveDVD and boom, we're back to something similar to what we had back when we first started trying the installer.

I have this idea of having precompiled packages for different arcs sitting somewhere and the user being able to choose either the "less-than-optimized" precompiled package or compiling from source. The idea is having the aspiring user have the accessibility of Ubuntu... but without using Ubuntu. Sort of. As they grow and advance in Linux they can choose to compile packages themselves or whatever the case may be. This can also help with rapid deployment and recompiling things later.

This could be looked at as breaking Gentoo's original core strength, but I'd happily allow for accessibility for the sake of attracting new users by initially sacrificing some of that core philosophy. That philosophy, after all, is all about choice. I've always looked at Gentoo as my old stomping ground. I learned what I know now through Gentoo. To me, the flavor is all about learning the nitty gritty, short of LFS. I'd love to make it more accessible so other people can slowly experience that without waiting a day to compile everything they need and spending a few more days bugfixing. Not that my idea would solve that, but I feel like if it's a step in the right direction and a way I can contribute to the Gentoo community, it is something that'll just make it better.

Or we can feed the fragmentation gnomes and fork. Either way.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johncrist1988,

that sounds a lot like Sabayon, maybe you should check it out.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

smartass wrote:
johncrist1988,

that sounds a lot like Sabayon, maybe you should check it out.


Hah, I never knew! Thank you for mentioning that. That's more or less exactly what I had envisioned. I guess my question then is -- Why don't we as a distribution take what our forks are doing well and adding them ourselves? Obviously it works and obviously it's successful to a certain extent. It only makes sense, short of the "well we are us and they are them, we are separate and we don't want to inherit from them" mentality.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johncrist1988 wrote:
smartass wrote:
johncrist1988,

that sounds a lot like Sabayon, maybe you should check it out.


Hah, I never knew! Thank you for mentioning that. That's more or less exactly what I had envisioned. I guess my question then is -- Why don't we as a distribution take what our forks are doing well and adding them ourselves? Obviously it works and obviously it's successful to a certain extent. It only makes sense, short of the "well we are us and they are them, we are separate and we don't want to inherit from them" mentality.
It is not like sabayon is completely separate from Gentoo. They try to keep the system compatible with emerge/portage. And their package manager is available in portage (emerge -p equo).

What is difficult is to keep compatibility of all packages with your custom Gentoo install. It is simply impossible to do so, unless you have kept very generic and extensive default USE flags.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

52midnight wrote:
Agreed; but Gentoo is SUCH a big step for newcomers from other distros that I believe it's important for them to prove that they CAN do it


This has never really bothered me - chasing the newcomers. If your 'other distros' haven't prepared you for Gentoo then I personally feel you need to spend more time there. I spent 3 or 4 years using various distros before coming to Gentoo. It was a steep learning curve when I got here (never needed to compile the kernel before, etc), but that's the effort you need to put in to get the results.

Also you might not be aware, but KDE4 isn't a "glitzy, bloated dog" under Gentoo as you compile it how you like. :wink:
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johncrist1988 wrote:
.....The past few weeks I've been toying with building a sort of universal installation method much like the tried and burned Gentoo Installer using precompiled packages and genkernel. I haven't written an installer but cutting out all the compile times you can get a system up and going in about 15-20 minutes. Add in a GUI installer on a liveDVD and boom, we're back to something similar to what we had back when we first started trying the installer.

I have this idea of having precompiled packages for different arcs sitting somewhere and the user being able to choose either the "less-than-optimized" precompiled package or compiling from source.....


You could probably learn a lot by studying the way Calculate Linux has put together an "enterprise linux distribution" that is "100% compatible with Gentoo." They've done what you propose.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's just say that the original poster's prediction has taken more than six years to NOT come true. Gentoo will never take over the world, but it probably won't die a horrible death either.

Of course one of the most ironic parts about the whole thing is that this thread has been around for a decent percentage of Gentoo's actual lifetime. Gentoo got it's start in 1999 (under another name) and this thread started in 2006. That means that of the roughly 13 years and change Gentoo has been around this thread has been alive for around 6. That's getting pretty darn close to 50% here.

I realize the thread has evolved a bit over the years, but I thought the irony was worth pointing out.

:D
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found this thread looking for info on creating a binary-only updater for a number Gentoo servers, and realized that the thread is still active! A thread running over 6 years? WOW! 8O

@gentooP4: Absolutely agree!

As a note, I came to Gentoo from LFS! And, Gentoo was a real "hair-saver" from LFS! Since I have been on Gentoo, I have tried a number of other distros (to include Sabayon, Linux Mint, CentOS just to name a couple), and find myself *always* returning to Gentoo. It gives me the granular control I like to have on my systems, the flexibility of being able to add whatever software catches my fancy (whether in the portage tree, in an overlay or build myself) and the general reliability of knowing that when the devs say that a particular package in the portage tree is stable for a specific architecture, that someone really *has* run the software on that architecture and didn't just mark it as stable because upstream said it is. Now, the architecture config that the package was tested on may not be anything close to what you are running, but that generally isn't an issue either... If you had a problem building a specific package, that's what all of us on these forums are here for; Helping each other out. :)

IMHO, Gentoo is one of the truest distros of linux available... It's all about choice! You can choose to build your system whichever way you want, choosing from so many different applications, desktops, frameworks, etc... BUT, having the option to choose from so many different possibilities confers the responsibility of making a choice! Unfortunately, that alone seems to be a big showstopper for many end-users. And, if that's the case for you, there are many other distros out there that are willing to tell you what to run. Find the one that you are comfortable with and enjoy it.

Neil Peart of 'Rush' in the song 'Free Will' wrote:
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear-
I will choose Free Will.

President Skroob in 'Spaceballs' wrote:
Sandurz, Sandurz, you've got to help me. I don't know what to do. I can't make decisions. I'm the president!


@theMerge: Definitely worth pointing out... ;) Good catch! And, on that point, I don't see it "ultimately dying" any time soon either. Looking forward to many more years of computing the way I want instead of the way someone else tells me I should/have to. 8)
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Die for ideas, but from slow dead !"

Mourir Pour Des Idées - Georges Brassens - Paroles de la chanson
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:57 pm    Post subject: Gentoo is dead?? Reply with quote

Hi guys, I've heard rumors about gentoo, that gentoo is dead, many developers are switching to archlinux and the community was reduced .. I can't believe this :cry: :cry: :cry:


Someone may tell me something?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. Gentoo is dead. Has been for years. Almost all that is left is this automated script that moves all such queries to a common thread, left operating long ago by mistake by the very last dev to leave. We also have automated scripts that generate threads arguing amongst themselves about the implementation choices of new versions of packages, which are somehow added to the tree with no developer involvement at all. Nobody knows how this occurs. :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the developers are the core of gentoo, the users are all the rest... if developers continue to believe, why should not I?

i forgot the "smile", :D :D :D :D :D so happy :P
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
Yes. Gentoo is dead. Has been for years. Almost all that is left is this automated script that moves all such queries to a common thread

And when this automated script occasionally dies, it leaves its own threads zombified! :wink:
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:lol: Yes. The automated script should get back on that, shouldn't it? :wink:

- John
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