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Muso
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 Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:06 pm Post subject: Waterboarding Led US to Bin Laden |
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Defense Secretary Panetta Admits Information from Waterboarding Led US to Bin Laden
| Quote: | Yes, waterboarding worked.
Today on Meet the Press Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta admitted that information gleaned from waterboarded detainees was used to track down al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and kill him.
“The real story was that in order to put the puzzle of intelligence together that led us to Bin Laden, there were a lot of pieces out there that were a part of that puzzle. Yes, some of it came from some of the tactics that were used at that time, interrogation tactics that were used. But the fact is we put together most of that intelligence without having to resort to that.”
This was not the first time Panetta admitted that enhanced interrogation techniques led the US to Bin Laden. He made similar comments back in May 2011. |
So there you go, mcgruff. Obama's only victory came because of a Bush policy he opposed.
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pjp
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Well, at least they didn't lie when they criticized a certain movie for suggesting torture was used and a key factor.
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Muso
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | Well, at least they didn't lie when they criticized a certain movie for suggesting torture was used and a key factor. |
The way they try to bury the truth and sell the opposite is so sickening. And what's amazing is how many complete idiots believe them.
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pjp
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Muso wrote: | | The way they try to bury the truth and sell the opposite is so sickening. And what's amazing is how many complete idiots believe them. |
I'm almost to the point where I don't blame administrations, since people reelect them, it would confirm "they must approve of what we're doing." Which is why I'm so concerned about the pendulum swinging in the other direction. "Hey, we were overwhelmingly elected, that must mean we have a mandate!"
That said, the administration is still guilty of the crime.
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McGruff
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:10 pm Post subject: Re: Waterboarding Led US to Bin Laden |
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| Muso wrote: | | So there you go, mcgruff. Obama's only victory came because of a Bush policy he opposed |
Have you lost the power of reading..?
| Quote: | Today on Meet the Press Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta admitted that information gleaned from waterboarded detainees was used to track down al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and kill him.
“The real story was that in order to put the puzzle of intelligence together that led us to Bin Laden, there were a lot of pieces out there that were a part of that puzzle. Yes, some of it came from some of the tactics that were used at that time, interrogation tactics that were used. But the fact is we put together most of that intelligence without having to resort to that.”
This was not the first time Panetta admitted that enhanced interrogation techniques led the US to Bin Laden. He made similar comments back in May 2011. |
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Bones McCracker
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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The fact is, most of a door is not the key. It's revisionism. CBS went so far as to the take those very same words, letter for letter, and put them under a headline that says "Panetta: Waterboarding Did Not Lead to Bin Laden". Ministry of Fucking Truth. It's absolutely mind-boggling.  
What Panetta said was:
a) waterboarding was not the only source of intelligence used to get bin Laden; other intelligence was important too
b) (when a reporter prompted him) we would have eventually got him without using waterboarding
That does NOT equate to "Waterboarding did not lead to Bin Laden".
I think we live in a world now entirely without integrity: entirely without honor, professionalism or even basic dignity.
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| patrix_neo wrote: | The human thought: I cannot win.
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jonnevers
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | I think we live in a world now entirely without integrity: entirely without honor, professionalism or even basic dignity. |
so you've been watching The Jersey Shore again? |
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McGruff
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| No: Fox News. |
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Bones McCracker
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| jonnevers wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | I think we live in a world now entirely without integrity: entirely without honor, professionalism or even basic dignity. |
so you've been watching The Jersey Shore again? |
Whoever came up with the idea for that show should be shot.
In fact, they should take everybody associated in way with reality TV and put them all in a cargo ship and then scuttle it in the most shark-infested spot off the Antarctic ice shelf. The cable news people they can strand on Easter Island or something while they're on their way down there.
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| patrix_neo wrote: | The human thought: I cannot win.
The ratbrain in me : I can only go forward and that's it. |
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dmitchell
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:28 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like bullshit to me. Saying they used the information they got from water boarding is not remotely the same as saying water boarding led to bin Laden.
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pjp
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:46 am Post subject: |
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Maybe they "used the information" to make dinner.
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Bones McCracker
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | Sounds like bullshit to me. Saying they used the information they got from water boarding is not remotely the same as saying water boarding led to bin Laden. |
Yeah, it pretty much is, especially when you take into consideration the actual facts of what information was obtained and how it was used, rather than these vague generalizations. They just don't want to say it, because they don't want to promote the idea that torture works, and I'd say that's a responsible thing to do. What's not responsible is activist journalists trying to twist those words into the opposite of the reality.
People should say what they mean. Torture is bad. People shouldn't do it. In this case, a mild form of torture was used in a few cases, and it probably shouldn't have been. It just so happens that it did produce some valuable results, including enabling us to finally hunt down bin Laden. Although people put a lot of value on taking him out, that does not justify using torture, and we should renew our commitment to systematic rejection of the idea. We don't need doublespeak, historical revisionism, or Jedi mind tricks to do that.
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| patrix_neo wrote: | The human thought: I cannot win.
The ratbrain in me : I can only go forward and that's it. |
Last edited by Bones McCracker on Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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pjp
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:45 am Post subject: |
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Bon bon and hot stone massage ought to work.
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juniper
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | Sounds like bullshit to me. Saying they used the information they got from water boarding is not remotely the same as saying water boarding led to bin Laden. |
Also, it ain't right. We aren't going to win "hearts and minds" by pulling tricks like this. Each act like this will get distorted to the nth degree and shown to the masses. It is probably idealistic, but keeping as much of our integrity as possible in such ugly conflicts should be priority number 1. |
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McGruff
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dmitchell
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | Yeah, it pretty much is, especially when you take into consideration the actual facts of what information was obtained and how it was used, rather than these vague generalizations. |
You had better fill me in on the actual facts because you are contradicting what I believed up to now.
Maybe we should define our terms first: when I read something like "water boarding led US to bin Laden," I take that to mean that the information acquired by water boarding played a crucial or a major role in locating bin Laden, and that without said information the US definitely would not or probably would not have located him in the same period of time. Is that your reading too?
I find nothing objectionable in the rest of your post.
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Muso
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | Yeah, it pretty much is, especially when you take into consideration the actual facts of what information was obtained and how it was used, rather than these vague generalizations. |
You had better fill me in on the actual facts because you are contradicting what I believed up to now.
Maybe we should define our terms first: when I read something like "water boarding led US to bin Laden," I take that to mean that the information acquired by water boarding played a crucial or a major role in locating bin Laden, and that without said information the US definitely would not or probably would not have located him in the same period of time. |
And that is the truth of the matter.
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wildhorse
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| The shit left by Oblabla's dog led to Bin Laden, after he stepped into it. No word about who he might be. |
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Bones McCracker
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | Yeah, it pretty much is, especially when you take into consideration the actual facts of what information was obtained and how it was used, rather than these vague generalizations. |
You had better fill me in on the actual facts because you are contradicting what I believed up to now.
Maybe we should define our terms first: when I read something like "water boarding led US to bin Laden," I take that to mean that the information acquired by water boarding played a crucial or a major role in locating bin Laden, and that without said information the US definitely would not or probably would not have located him in the same period of time. Is that your reading too?
I find nothing objectionable in the rest of your post. |
That would be a fair interpretation of "waterboarding led to bin Laden". That is also a fair description of what happened. The existence of the courier (the fact that only one man was in communication with him and knew is actual location), the courier's approximate location, and a pseudonym (i.e. code name) being used by al Qaeda to refer to him, were obtained by water-boarding. The CIA used this information to launch a hunt for the courier, and they watched the courier to identify possible locations where bin Laden was.
So, information obtained by water-boarding provided a critical break-through that did indeed lead to the location of bin Laden. Was other intelligence used? Of course. Lots of it. Would we have eventually got him anyway? Undoubtedly, although the chances are we'd still be looking for him now, he might have died or become pretty much irrelevant before we ever got him.
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| patrix_neo wrote: | The human thought: I cannot win.
The ratbrain in me : I can only go forward and that's it. |
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dmitchell
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | That would be a fair interpretation of "waterboarding led to bin Laden". That is also a fair description of what happened. The existence of the courier (the fact that only one man was in communication with him and knew is actual location), the courier's approximate location, and a pseudonym (i.e. code name) being used by al Qaeda to refer to him, were obtained by water-boarding. The CIA used this information to launch a hunt for the courier, and they watched the courier to identify possible locations where bin Laden was. |
Hmm... Based on skimming a couple of reports, I'm not sure I share your conclusions about what was obtained from water boarding. But that's not the important thing...
| Quote: | | So, information obtained by water-boarding provided a critical break-through that did indeed lead to the location of bin Laden. Was other intelligence used? Of course. Lots of it. Would we have eventually got him anyway? Undoubtedly, although the chances are we'd still be looking for him now, he might have died or become pretty much irrelevant before we ever got him. |
The important thing is, does finding bin Laden vindicate the use of torture? Right wingers crowing about this seem to think it does, and that this is some kind of victory for them.
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McGruff
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| It doesn't take much to confirm their simple-minded prejudices, bless 'em. |
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Bones McCracker
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | The important thing is, does finding bin Laden vindicate the use of torture? Right wingers crowing about this seem to think it does, and that this is some kind of victory for them. |
You already have my position on that.
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| patrix_neo wrote: | The human thought: I cannot win.
The ratbrain in me : I can only go forward and that's it. |
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dmitchell
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:53 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | You already have my position on that. |
Yes. I agreed with what you wrote.
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Bones McCracker
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | | It doesn't take much to confirm their simple-minded prejudices, bless 'em. |
The funny part is that you weren't even trying to be ironic. You're a walking self-parody.
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| patrix_neo wrote: | The human thought: I cannot win.
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