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notageek
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 Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:36 pm Post subject: Indian student brutally beaten in Germany. |
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Three guesses for who did it.
All Wrong.
http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/indian-student-s-tongue-slashed-allegedly-for-refusing-to-convert-310440
| Quote: | Berlin: Police say an Indian student in Germany has been attacked and injured by suspected Islamic extremists who accosted him and demanded that he convert to Islam.
Police spokesman Frank Piontek said on Thursday that two attackers in the western German city of Bonn severely beat the 24-year-old and then slashed his tongue with a knife.
Police say the attackers walked up to the student in a city street late on Monday and demanded that he convert to Islam - then beat him up after he refused to do so. |
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energyman76b
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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I guessed Turks... hm, they don't provide the nationality of the attackers. Too bad.
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notageek
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | I guessed Turks... hm, they don't provide the nationality of the attackers. Too bad. |
Close enough.
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Muso
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Indian student brutally beaten in Germany. |
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| notageek wrote: | | Three guesses for who did it. |
Durka Durka Mohammad Jihad
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Koala Kid
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: Indian student brutally beaten in Germany. |
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| notageek wrote: | | Three guesses for who did it. |
I would be slightly surprised to read that neo-nazis tried to convert an indian to islam.
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John-Boy
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: Indian student brutally beaten in Germany. |
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| Koala Kid wrote: | | notageek wrote: | | Three guesses for who did it. |
I would be slightly surprised to read that neo-nazis tried to convert an indian to islam. |
Depends how multiculturally aware, diverse and progressive they were.
Bonus points would have been awarded for the presentation of a leaflet offering
alternative world faiths to choose from, along with complementary material
explaining how such a juxtaposition of often contrary belief mechanisms actually
strengthens society as a whole.
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pjp
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:36 am Post subject: Re: Indian student brutally beaten in Germany. |
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| Koala Kid wrote: | | notageek wrote: | | Three guesses for who did it. |
I would be slightly surprised to read that neo-nazis tried to convert an indian to islam. |
++
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Prenj
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| Religion is an operating system that has to go, it's like Windows ME + Viruses combined (for self-replication). |
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pjp
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:44 am Post subject: |
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To some, anti-religion is itself a religion. Even if they deny it.
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energyman76b
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | To some, anti-religion is itself a religion. Even if they deny it. |
to some the moon is made of cheese.
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Prenj
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | To some, anti-religion is itself a religion. Even if they deny it. |
Maybe for some. For me, it's a difference between having compulsive need to fill the knowledge void with fairy tales, and the choice of leaving the void be. Epistemology. |
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pjp
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:54 am Post subject: |
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I don't think most believe in a deity to fill a knowledge void. Certainly some do, and others use it as "evidence" of a god, but that isn't the primary reason for believing. There are also some theories that we're wired to believe in god(s).
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energyman76b
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | I don't think most believe in a deity to fill a knowledge void. Certainly some do, and others use it as "evidence" of a god, but that isn't the primary reason for believing. There are also some theories that we're wired to believe in god(s). |
not really - we are wired to make up stuff to prepare for certain situations.
This leads to making up deities.
The primary reason for believing is education AKA brain washing children.
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Prenj
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | I don't think most believe in a deity to fill a knowledge void. Certainly some do, and others use it as "evidence" of a god, but that isn't the primary reason for believing. There are also some theories that we're wired to believe in god(s). |
Sure, but speaking of being wired for something, I think there is lot to it, our monkey brains cannot process the cause and effect sequence without putting some kind of "prime mover" in place somewhere, and we resort to antropomorphism.
I mean, personally, I don't think we can know if there is a prime mover or not, but the transgression occurs when someone choses to believe one way or the other psychologically, and they invest their whole ego behind it and cannot help themselves to push their mindset onto others, simply because the existance of others is a signal that they may not be 100% correct. It happens everywhere, not just about religion, in relationships, at work, at meetings, etc etc.
Combine that psychological aspect of ego, defense mechanism, and so on with the fact that there exist institutions who are riding on that biological reality of our neurology to gain power, control, subjugate people to do others bidding. It is why I allow myself the position of angosticism, but at the same time I despise organized religious institutions. Pope? Fuck him.
Just because we are wired for something, that doesn't mean that we should always go with it, our primate neurology has consequences in modern social setting, we outlawed murder, but we celebrate religion. Not saying we should outlaw it, but we should reexamin our position, at least. Otherwise we'll have crusades in Europe in 20-30 years, because we have, in our political correctness myopia, chosen to "respect religious rights" without question, and I am not sure that is the way to go.
Maybe I sound extreme, but I see daily what happens when you let clergy run rampant unchecked, and how society breaks down. |
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notageek
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:58 am Post subject: Re: Indian student brutally beaten in Germany. |
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| Koala Kid wrote: | | notageek wrote: | | Three guesses for who did it. |
I would be slightly surprised to read that neo-nazis tried to convert an indian to islam. |
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notageek
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:59 am Post subject: Re: Indian student brutally beaten in Germany. |
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| John-Boy wrote: | Depends how multiculturally aware, diverse and progressive they were.
Bonus points would have been awarded for the presentation of a leaflet offering
alternative world faiths to choose from, along with complementary material
explaining how such a juxtaposition of often contrary belief mechanisms actually
strengthens society as a whole. |
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pjp
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | not really |
Thanks, but I'll defer to the experts on that.
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pjp
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| Prenj wrote: | | It happens everywhere, not just about religion, in relationships, at work, at meetings, etc etc. |
I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I'm agnostic as well, but I also think most religion can be perfectly agreeable with science. The "Big Bang"? God. Doesn't seem unreasonable any more than a magical primordial goo under perfect conditions to create life. Evolution? God. Why not? Why wouldn't that be how God intended it? There's no reason religion (sorry literal interpreters of the Bible) to be incompatible with any of that. It doesn't prove anything, and it doesn't hurt anything.
| Prenj wrote: | | Maybe I sound extreme, but I see daily what happens when you let clergy run rampant unchecked, and how society breaks down. |
It can happen. But absence of religion doesn't eliminate the problems you're describing. You forcing me to have no religion is the same as me forcing you to have one. What you are objecting to are people and their actions. Which again is not limited to religion.
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Prenj
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | It can happen. But absence of religion doesn't eliminate the problems you're describing. You forcing me to have no religion is the same as me forcing you to have one. What you are objecting to are people and their actions. Which again is not limited to religion. |
That's kind of magical moralistic thinking that simply isn't true. Would you argue that nazism as a doctrine and a political philosophy had anything to do with what happened in WW2, or is it simply the fault of those bad germans? |
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pjp
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:46 am Post subject: |
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I didn't say that. Are you trying to claim that all significant atrocities are caused by religion? 
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Prenj
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | I didn't say that. Are you trying to claim that all significant atrocities are caused by religion? |
No. What I am saying is that ideologies, religion, indoctrination, etc form the collective thinking (this is their purpose). So the question of blaming religion, vs blaming people and their actions become less black-and-white when you consider that peoples actions are result of a mindset formed by religion.
We all have potential for violence and kindness, the question is what triggers it. Religions are polarizing agents that removes you from the reality and pushes you into some fake world of black and white, where by default, those who conform to the religion are white, and those who do not are black.
What happens when you have people of different religions all claiming to be white and the other side black? If there was no religion, you'd only see people.
And in the end, if dogma of Bible, Quran, etc etc are not literally true, what point is there to hold them in higher esteem then Lord of the Rings, or Star Wars? Would we consider people killing people in NY subway because they think of themselves as Jedi, and the others as Sith, anything but insane? What's the difference really, except that one book is older then the other? It's just a book. |
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aCOSwt
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| Prenj wrote: | | Sure, but speaking of being wired for something, I think there is lot to it, our monkey brains cannot process the cause and effect sequence without putting some kind of "prime mover" in place somewhere, and we resort to antropomorphism. |
+, ++ and +++
The somewhere as the place for the prime mover is absolutely delightful! If the joke was meant, it is indeed clever !
And I make no doubt that who gets the full understanding of your joke automagically understands 1/3 of God. (Capital G intended)
Please Prenj, forge 2 equivalent jokes for getting the remaining 2/3rd.
This being said and admitting that everything is necessarily related, I would nevertheless question the immediateness of the relationship between your first sentence and antropomorphism.
(Immediateness that I understand you mean with "and we".)
I would find even more questionable your use of we resort to.
Don't you think there is a first question that should be answered before, v.g. : Can we escape from antropomorphism ?
(And, of course, can we give any rational and rigorous answer to this question ?)
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notageek
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:48 am Post subject: |
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Prenj, when your post is being ++ed by our resident French mime, tells you a lot doesn't it?
Religion isn't the problem. It is the religion, which is the problem.
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Muso
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| notageek wrote: | Prenj, when your post is being ++ed by our resident French mime, tells you a lot doesn't it?
Religion isn't the problem. It is the religion, which is the problem. |
Amen.
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Prenj
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| aCOSwt wrote: |
Don't you think there is a first question that should be answered before, v.g. : Can we escape from antropomorphism ?
(And, of course, can we give any rational and rigorous answer to this question ?) |
No, I don't think that we can escape from antropomorphism. How could we? But that doesn't mean we know anything.
Why is it so that all meditation boils down to escaping your own patterns of thought and ego, entering the state where there is mental silence, in order to glimpse the true nature of the world around us?
How come that the state of flow, when people are most productive in various activities is characterized by the absence of the sense of self, sense of time, and deliberate thought? Is that not the clue that trying to construct a narrative of the world by using our antropomorphic building blocks is inherently flawed?
The way I see things, religions are merely a by-product of the intuition about the world, not the definition of it. All we are doing is trying to draw a circle with series of straight lines, no matter how hard we try, thats not it.
As for the joke, it boils down to the argument of is there a prime mover behind the prime mover, ad infinitum.
Last edited by Prenj on Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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