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[Big Big Rant] Now consolekit is going unmaintained X(
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ppurka
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:54 pm    Post subject: [Big Big Rant] Now consolekit is going unmaintained X( Reply with quote

After all this drama over trying to get logins and permissions to work, consolekit is going away. Will these (rogue) "devs" stop ruining the linux desktop experience? :roll:

http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/ConsoleKit

Totally reminds me of this post: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-876565.html
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no problem with consolekit going away, all privilege escalation should have been done as it has always been done, with su/sudo, and login/out should be dealt with by PAM and the environment. My only regret for consolekit getting killed off is systemd is going to replace it, and its bz2 tarball is already 909kb.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meh, let's hope systemd won't be a hard dependency of KDE (which uses {Console,Policy}Kit right now) in the future. A desktop environment should run with whatever init-like system, and I really dislike the idea of replacing my init system just because some folks hate a proper, modular software architecture. :roll:
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsteven wrote:
Meh, let's hope systemd won't be a hard dependency of KDE


That will pretty much kill KDE for me. I'm one of those who overall *like* the changes that've been made, on the surface at least, with the 4.x branch. But I have a serious functional and philosophical problem with systemd, making it mandatory for $foo will ensure I cease using $foo.

I'm typing and backspacing at the moment, trying to find "diplomatic" words to use to describe my spite for this systemd hysteria. The idea that we're going to drive all development work on the Linux desktop based on the need to be able to make youtube videos showing "ZOMG MY BOOTUP IS SO FAST WOWWWWWWWWW I'M FLYING HOLY SHIT" is nothing short of braindead. Really? THIS is your driving force behind design for an init system?

*sigh*
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I pretty much agree with cach0rr0's post. And now they also want to integrate a logger into systemd: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1IC9yOXj7j6cdLLxWEBAGRL6wl97tFxgjLUEHIX3MSTs&pli=1

As I wrote somewhere else, soon we will end up having the whole operating system in systemd... :twisted:
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsteven wrote:

As I wrote somewhere else, soon we will end up having the whole operating system in systemd... :twisted:


I'll write my own hacky init system before I move to systemd. Not exaggerating. If it becomes a hard requirement for desktops, my linux hardware will become hobbyist gear, booting occasionally out of windows and into a handful of virtual terminals.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrsteven wrote:
I pretty much agree with cach0rr0's post. And now they also want to integrate a logger into systemd: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1IC9yOXj7j6cdLLxWEBAGRL6wl97tFxgjLUEHIX3MSTs&pli=1

As I wrote somewhere else, soon we will end up having the whole operating system in systemd... :twisted:

Quote:
The journal is cool, but systemd is an abomination, can I use the journald without systemd?
No, you can’t. Logging is a core part of service management. The journal is tightly integrated with the rest of systemd to ensure that everything in the system can be monitored, introspected and debugged. The generated journal entries are queried from various components in systemd. In effect systemd and journald are so tightly coupled that separating them would make little sense. That said, it’s Free Software, so you can do with the code whatever suits you. Finally, you are actually wrong in believing that systemd was an abomination.

Quote:
I am using systemd on an embedded system and am not interested in persistent logging, can I opt out of the journal?
No you can’t really. However, what you can do is tell systemd that you don’t want persistent logging, by removing (or not creating in the first place) the /var/log/journal directory, in which case journald will log only to /run/log/journal (which it does in any case during early boot). /run is volatile and lost on reboots, in contrast to /var. On top of that you can configure the maximum disk space the journal may consume to a low value.

:roll:

They really are determined to turn Linux into a steaming pile of crap.

Here's the best one:
Quote:
Why doesn’t the journal generate traditional log files?
Well, for starters, traditional log files are not indexed, and many key operations very slow with a complexity of O(n). The native journal file format allows O(log(n)) complexity or better for all important operations. For more reasons, refer to the sections above.

Yeah, because line numbers aren't an index. Retards. Seriously, how did someone this stupid even hear of big O notation?
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ppurka
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AidanJT wrote:
They really are determined to turn Linux into a steaming pile of crap.
They have already done that. Unless you are using a ready made distribution and you are running one of the few big DEs configuring all these *kit is a real pain. It's arcane, transitions to these and their configuration are not well described and overall just a really big mess. And now that we are slowly adjusting to this mess via various hacks, the transition has begun to a bigger mess. So, it's either the people behind creating the distribution who have to shoulder the burden, or in the case of Gentoo, it is us users who have to bang our heads on the desk over this.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If systemd is ever going to be the standard on Gentoo I'm calling it quits and switching to one of the BSDs, at least the devs there don't have any problem telling someone with retarded ideas where to stuff them.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have actually never had to use Consolekit/Policykt. Though at the moment I'm running Gentoo only on headless systems, I always stuck to 'minimal' WMs like dwm, wmii, and some derivatives when I was using it on systems with a GUI.

...I can remember Consolekit/Policykit not even existing a few years ago. I have to wonder what's with all the fast changes in terms of how the system is setup? This feels especially weird when I can log in, run most of the console tools with exactly the same switches and features (okay, with a few additions) as they had fifteen years ago when I first started dealing with Linux.
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Etal
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AidanJT wrote:
Quote:
Why doesn’t the journal generate traditional log files?
Well, for starters, traditional log files are not indexed, and many key operations very slow with a complexity of O(n). The native journal file format allows O(log(n)) complexity or better for all important operations. For more reasons, refer to the sections above.

Yeah, because line numbers aren't an index. Retards. Seriously, how did someone this stupid even hear of big O notation?


I don't think you have a clear understanding of what an "index" is...
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

figured I'd share my thought on this issue as a maintainer for ConsoleKit and Xfce in Portage:

long as Xfce is using ConsoleKit i'm going to keep the package alive one way or another, and I have no plans whatsoever in switching to systemd anytime soon

so any worries are way premature
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssuominen wrote:
I have no plans whatsoever in switching to systemd anytime soon


i reckon as long as there are at least some devs resisting this RH-driven hysteria we'll be ok. I just worry that at some point they're going to make everything so deeply embedded it's damn near impossible to avoid.

seems strange to me the way the upstream guys are pushing something that's beneficial almost exclusively to desktops, when the server market is how linux butters its bread. I would hope given the latter, systemd will exist as an "alternative", for desktop users that choose to go that route.

I'm not panicked just yet. The consolekit thing really doesnt bother me, as I change desktops like i change shirts (basically, anything but gnome sees my boxes at some point). Systemd, however, i wouldnt be crushed to see it take a long vacation alongside Google Wave, HAL, Tupac, and Jimmy Hoffa.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We should all be congratulating Lennart, he has successfully managed to bring optimisation ricing to the masses.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
We should all be congratulating Lennart, he has successfully managed to bring optimisation ricing to the masses.
:lol:
Yeah. He is succeeding where Gentoo failed :lol:

Maybe the sudo joke should be re-written:
Quote:
make me a sandwich
No
sudo make me a sandwich
you crazy or what?
systemd make me a sandwich
**silence**
systemd call policykit for consolekit and make me a sandwich
Okay

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XavierMiller
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, you forgot packagekit 8)
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Etal wrote:
I don't think you have a clear understanding of what an "index" is...

I know what an index is just fine. RDBMS integer columns don't have a monopoly on data indices you know.
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ppurka
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

XavierMiller wrote:
Hey, you forgot packagekit 8)
:lol:
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XavierMiller wrote:
Hey, you forgot packagekit 8)

Does anyone even use a GUI front-end for portage? (It's on their list of supported package managers.)
It sounds like it would get in the way.
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ppurka
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

app-portage/porthole is a pretty decent GUI for portage.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wikipedia on systemd wrote:
systemd has since been proposed as an external dependency of GNOME 3.2 by the project's author.17 This would essentially require all distributions that use GNOME to use systemd, or at least include it as a configurable option.
However, I think these rants about "One monolithic executable" are unnecessary. sysvinit consists of multiple executables, systemd does consist of multiple executables. That's it, really. (Just a _small_ comparison)
And why does it hurt you if you install one package instead of six? Not installing one of those would be deactivating (USE_Flags maybe? dunno...) in the "big" one. But on the other hand I do agree that the "use whatever is there" approach is the only one really acceptable of course.
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ppurka
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Wikipedia on systemd wrote:
systemd has since been proposed as an external dependency of GNOME 3.2 by the project's author.17 This would essentially require all distributions that use GNOME to use systemd, or at least include it as a configurable option.
However, I think these rants about "One monolithic executable" are unnecessary. sysvinit consists of multiple executables, systemd does consist of multiple executables. That's it, really. (Just a _small_ comparison)
And why does it hurt you if you install one package instead of six? Not installing one of those would be deactivating (USE_Flags maybe? dunno...) in the "big" one. But on the other hand I do agree that the "use whatever is there" approach is the only one really acceptable of course.
It's not really about disabling something in a big package. It's more like they have created a big solution for a problem which wasn't there.

More annoyingly, they have been hacking away at creating different packages, promoting them as if those ideas were finalized and then ditching them equally quickly. That's why we have gone through the cycle of hal -> devicekit -> ukit, consolekit -> systemd all in a span of about 3-4 years. There is no guarantee that systemd is going to remain 2 years down the line.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ppurka wrote:
More annoyingly, they have been hacking away at creating different packages, promoting them as if those ideas were finalized and then ditching them equally quickly. That's why we have gone through the cycle of hal -> devicekit -> ukit, consolekit -> systemd all in a span of about 3-4 years. There is no guarantee that systemd is going to remain 2 years down the line.

How is that a problem? How is that even annoying? Who are you, the software-creation-police? Let them hack away at whatever solution they think is good - maybe they actually end up creating something really cool, I don't know.
The only problem here is the people that jump on these solutions right off the bat making them mandatory for all of their software.
If Xfce or whatever DE you are using has a hard dependency on something that is now unmaintained, that is just a display of shortsightedness on the dev's part.
I mean, it's not like Mr. Poettering forced them to use his software. They did a review and decided that consolekit the best solution for their needs; well, turns out it wasn't. What a bummer.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
ppurka wrote:
More annoyingly, they have been hacking away at creating different packages, promoting them as if those ideas were finalized and then ditching them equally quickly. That's why we have gone through the cycle of hal -> devicekit -> ukit, consolekit -> systemd all in a span of about 3-4 years. There is no guarantee that systemd is going to remain 2 years down the line.

How is that a problem? How is that even annoying? Who are you, the software-creation-police? Let them hack away at whatever solution they think is good - maybe they actually end up creating something really cool, I don't know.
As an end-user running Gentoo it is highly annoying, to put it mildly. If you are running a binary distribution, then all the configuration is done for you by the distribution developers. But if you are using Gentoo and not using one of the DEs then you have to weather all these rapid changes to the core system. Every year.

It is an annoyance because you don't gain any new functionality. All you gain is headaches. And long forum threads on consolekit and on hal before that are enough testimony to the number of Gentoo users who are affected. This will hold true for anyone who is not using a ready-made distribution, or who is not using one of the major DEs.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ppurka wrote:
As an end-user running Gentoo it is highly annoying, to put it mildly. If you are running a binary distribution, then all the configuration is done for you by the distribution developers. But if you are using Gentoo and not using one of the DEs then you have to weather all these rapid changes to the core system. Every year.

It is an annoyance because you don't gain any new functionality. All you gain is headaches. And long forum threads on consolekit and on hal before that are enough testimony to the number of Gentoo users who are affected. This will hold true for anyone who is not using a ready-made distribution, or who is not using one of the major DEs.
Yes. Ok. I get it.

…but I still don't care. Why? Because:
Code:
root@xps drwilly # find /var/db/pkg/sys-* -name "*kit" -o -name upower -o -name udisks
root@xps drwilly #


Maybe you should ask your DE's devs if they really want their users to follow them through this bandwagon-hopping.
Either they don't care or haven't yet realised, that some freedesktop.org projects have a rather unsatisfying half-life - and now'd be a good time to notice that.
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