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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An official Gentoo wiki should look like those old 2008.0 disks. All black and dark purple
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:15 pm    Post subject: Re: What would get you dev-ing for Gentoo? Reply with quote

speeddemon wrote:
yngwin wrote:
speeddemon wrote:
in my admittedly limited knowledge of the bullshit politics and complete lack of any progress that has happened in the last several years

Your knowledge is limited indeed. There has been a lot of progress in the last years. Not as much as we would like to see, but "complete lack" doesn't come even close to a resemblance of reality.


You're condescending attitude, and the fact you come on here and tell us all that we're wrong is exactly the point. Either way, I don't really care anymore. I've moved on.

Your remark about "complete lack of any progress that has happened in the last several years" dismisses all the work that Gentoo developers have done these years. You say that all the hours I and others put into making Gentoo a better distro, day in, day out, year after year, are meaningless. I'm sorry to react in kind, but I'm only human.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
then eix and emerge need to be combined into one glorious package

That's not as easy to do, but they work very well together.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
its wiki however is great!

As is the AUR idea.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AidanJT wrote:
Naib wrote:
its wiki however is great!

As is the AUR idea.

Yes, their Sunrise equivalent.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing is holding me back and I'd love to get involved
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
then eix and emerge need to be combined into one glorious package

That's not as easy to do, but they work very well together.
I have never really seen a use for it, emerge seems to have everything I want. I find it a bit of a waste of time that a tool for searching and syncing has been made instead of adding to portage - or is that because of the internal mess that they say portage is.

Maybe it is time to start looking at pkgcore? Maybe combining it with eix would give a perfect tool?
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lightvhawk0 wrote:
Nothing is holding me back and I'd love to get involved
Gentoo would love to speak to you about helping then.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: What would get you dev-ing for Gentoo? Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:

Your remark about "complete lack of any progress that has happened in the last several years" dismisses all the work that Gentoo developers have done these years. You say that all the hours I and others put into making Gentoo a better distro, day in, day out, year after year, are meaningless. I'm sorry to react in kind, but I'm only human.

Nice quote chop :wink:
Frankly, the way I see it (and Im not alone) is that the "progress" you claim to have made hasn't truly helped the average user at all. What has changed that would help a person to use gentoo more effectively? Overlays make the devs job easier. Doesn't make it any easier for the user, just more steps to install stuff. People have clamored to fix the few problems with portage, there have been a few projects that have attempted to do that, but because everyone bitches and complains nothing will ever actually happen. Everybody has already listed the reasons why they don't want to help, and the problems they see, but as usual, they are simply dismissed as unfounded complaints.

And you can react any way you want. But when you're posting with the developer underneath your name, people are going to associate your words and their meanings with gentoo and all developers. Learn to suck it up and ignore comments that would lead you to react with comments that could be taken in a negative light.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
AidanJT wrote:
As is the AUR idea.

Yes, their Sunrise equivalent.

Except less tucked away in the corner. ;)
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AidanJT wrote:
yngwin wrote:
AidanJT wrote:
As is the AUR idea.

Yes, their Sunrise equivalent.

Except less tucked away in the corner. ;)
And not maintained by one person, and has an excellent web interface, and allows for voting/comments on packages.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

w1n73rmu7e wrote:
And not maintained by one person, and has an excellent web interface, and allows for voting/comments on packages.

That too.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AidanJT wrote:
w1n73rmu7e wrote:
And not maintained by one person, and has an excellent web interface, and allows for voting/comments on packages.

That too.
Oh yeah, it's also nice how you can install yaourt and use it to manage official as well as AUR packages, rather than the situation with Sunrise in Gentoo, where you have to use emerge and layman separately.

On second thought, now that the Radeon driver is usable, I might actually give Arch a serious shot. I already have a VirtualBox VM that I play with every now and then, so I could probably get it up and running in less than 15 mins from scratch with my 18 mbit connection.
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Sorry for being patronizing.


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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably the most monumental fuckup would be giving PMS to ciaranm and spb to write.

Yngwin, I think the main problem here is communication. The users hardly ever see the devs around and when they ask questions quite often the answer is abrupt or defensive.

At the end of the day the developers *have* to have a good relationship with the users otherwise the users lose confidence and leave. No users, no distro; no distro, no developers. Unfortunately you've come here with good intentions but you're seeing how the users *actually* feel - and you don't like it, I wouldn't.

Also, it's probably people like speeddemon that you need the most: well informed, experienced users that feel like they've had enough and don't mind expressing it. Maybe if the developer community asked speeddemon what he feels should change then he wouldn't have answered before with such vigour
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:35 pm    Post subject: Re: What would get you dev-ing for Gentoo? Reply with quote

speeddemon wrote:
yngwin wrote:

Your remark about "complete lack of any progress that has happened in the last several years" dismisses all the work that Gentoo developers have done these years. You say that all the hours I and others put into making Gentoo a better distro, day in, day out, year after year, are meaningless. I'm sorry to react in kind, but I'm only human.

Nice quote chop :wink:

If I chopped that into a way that doesn't reflect the meaning of your original post, then please correct me, and clarify what you did mean to say.

speeddemon wrote:
Frankly, the way I see it (and Im not alone) is that the "progress" you claim to have made hasn't truly helped the average user at all. What has changed that would help a person to use gentoo more effectively?

Nothing earth-shattering, but there certainly have been a lot of incremental improvements. For example portage's --keep-going feature. You complained about overlays - well, now we have LXDE available in portage, no longer just in an overlay. We have split some big packages like KDE and Qt, so you no longer need to recompile as much when you want a feature more or one less. We now have useflag dependencies, so you now know immediately when you need to change a useflag, and not 50 packages into a long compile session. We now have the autobuilds, so we have continuously up-to-date install media. And these are just a handful of examples...

speeddemon wrote:
And you can react any way you want. But when you're posting with the developer underneath your name, people are going to associate your words and their meanings with gentoo and all developers. Learn to suck it up and ignore comments that would lead you to react with comments that could be taken in a negative light.

If you're making an offensive remark that dismisses the work our volunteer developers do, I'm not going to let that slide.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
Yngwin, I think the main problem here is communication.

I agree. And it is a pity so few developers are active in the forums.

cokehabit wrote:
The users hardly ever see the devs around and when they ask questions quite often the answer is abrupt or defensive.

I would invite everybody to come hang out in the #gentoo-kde and #gentoo-desktop IRC channels. Here you can see active development going on, and a lot of positive interaction between devs and users. Really, my Gentoo experience wouldn't be the same without these and similar IRC channels. It is the number 1 communication channel for most of the active devs.

cokehabit wrote:
Also, it's probably people like speeddemon that you need the most: well informed, experienced users that feel like they've had enough and don't mind expressing it. Maybe if the developer community asked speeddemon what he feels should change then he wouldn't have answered before with such vigour

Actually, we need more people like you! People who can see both sides of a story, who have patience and understanding as well as a willingness to improve things. People who are constructive instead of just negative.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:54 pm    Post subject: Re: What would get you dev-ing for Gentoo? Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
speeddemon wrote:
yngwin wrote:

Your remark about "complete lack of any progress that has happened in the last several years" dismisses all the work that Gentoo developers have done these years. You say that all the hours I and others put into making Gentoo a better distro, day in, day out, year after year, are meaningless. I'm sorry to react in kind, but I'm only human.

Nice quote chop :wink:

If I chopped that into a way that doesn't reflect the meaning of your original post, then please correct me, and clarify what you did mean to say.

Just messing with you, I know you didn't mean anything by it :wink:

yngwin wrote:

Nothing earth-shattering, but there certainly have been a lot of incremental improvements. For example portage's --keep-going feature. You complained about overlays - well, now we have LXDE available in portage, no longer just in an overlay. We have split some big packages like KDE and Qt, so you no longer need to recompile as much when you want a feature more or one less. We now have useflag dependencies, so you now know immediately when you need to change a useflag, and not 50 packages into a long compile session. We now have the autobuilds, so we have continuously up-to-date install media. And these are just a handful of examples...

speeddemon wrote:
And you can react any way you want. But when you're posting with the developer underneath your name, people are going to associate your words and their meanings with gentoo and all developers. Learn to suck it up and ignore comments that would lead you to react with comments that could be taken in a negative light.

If you're making an offensive remark that dismisses the work our volunteer developers do, I'm not going to let that slide.

Im going to go ahead and drop it at this point. Its obvious you would rather be defensive than listen, and thats fine. And if you can't see fit to dismiss a remark about your "volunteer" workforce, then thats exactly what distinguishes the gentoo devs as being a group of seemingly disgruntled IT guys instead of being a group of professionals working on project.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:01 pm    Post subject: Re: What would get you dev-ing for Gentoo? Reply with quote

speeddemon wrote:
Its obvious you would rather be defensive than listen, and thats fine.

It needs to come from both sides. I would listen if you'd come with a more positive attitude, like cokehabit does.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:

cokehabit wrote:
Also, it's probably people like speeddemon that you need the most: well informed, experienced users that feel like they've had enough and don't mind expressing it. Maybe if the developer community asked speeddemon what he feels should change then he wouldn't have answered before with such vigour

Actually, we need more people like you! People who can see both sides of a story, who have patience and understanding as well as a willingness to improve things. People who are constructive instead of just negative.

I understand it completely. I also realize how I come across. Frankly, I just don't care any more. In years past, I would have gladly helped. Now, I don't see any point. How much patience should someone have? I would probably still be willing to help if there was a chance that portage could be replaced, or that a portage alternative would happen.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
Most Gentoo devs will rarely be motivated enough to take on a package with such a maintenance burden. What you need in such cases is someone who actively uses the package and cares about it enough to do the work.
I can understand that. Maybe in cases like this where upstream isn't cooperative, or believes their "exception" is justifiable, a dev could work with community members (such as those who provided the handbrake ebuilds) to get something in, with the understanding that the dev wasn't taking 100% responsibility for maintaining it, but rather assisting an interested group of the community with maintaining it. An "ebuild lead" if you will.

yngwin wrote:
eix-sync does, after
Code:
echo '*' > /etc/eix-sync.conf
I'm with cokehabit on this one. I'd prefer to see the functionality in emerge, or have some 'eix' utilities completely replace my need to interact with emerge. A more seamless single environment. That said, I'll check it out. An * isn't too complicated :)

yngwin wrote:
I know. And if in my passionate reaction I give the impression I don't, then my apologies.
Understood. Do what you can to keep that passion. It is invaluable.

Thanks for your efforts!
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

speeddemon wrote:
yngwin wrote:

cokehabit wrote:
Also, it's probably people like speeddemon that you need the most: well informed, experienced users that feel like they've had enough and don't mind expressing it. Maybe if the developer community asked speeddemon what he feels should change then he wouldn't have answered before with such vigour

Actually, we need more people like you! People who can see both sides of a story, who have patience and understanding as well as a willingness to improve things. People who are constructive instead of just negative.

I understand it completely. I also realize how I come across. Frankly, I just don't care any more. In years past, I would have gladly helped. Now, I don't see any point. How much patience should someone have? I would probably still be willing to help if there was a chance that portage could be replaced, or that a portage alternative would happen.
I think it may be time to replace portage with pkgcore. Maybe make it official and call it portage2 and replace the command pmerge with emerge. Ferringb and zmendico would be a great team working together.

Also that would give Gentoo a great boost as well, the PR people could market it as "GENTOO 2.0". Think of the limitless opportunities to get new users that would create
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few people have mentioned that they don't want to join and help out due to the inter-dev relations and the direction Gentoo has taken.
Pardon if I'm simplistic, but couldn't there be a set of definitive rules on when and where to apply consequences (from a simple conversation to being fired) be used?
I mean you have a lot of experience where situations have gone sour, and you have guidelines and rules but if the appropriate bodies are hesitent in enforcing these rules, perhaps there should be rules for when a rule should be enforced.
This way, it should also be easier to define what the problem is when no action is taken, or action is taken late.

On a lot smaller scale of group work, I've had some quite good experiences with having rules for when an action should be taken. I don't imagine it'll be (much) less positive (albeit perhaps harder to implement) used on a scale such as with gentoo.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zeerak wrote:
A few people have mentioned that they don't want to join and help out due to the inter-dev relations and the direction Gentoo has taken.
Pardon if I'm simplistic, but couldn't there be a set of definitive rules on when and where to apply consequences (from a simple conversation to being fired) be used?
I mean you have a lot of experience where situations have gone sour, and you have guidelines and rules but if the appropriate bodies are hesitent in enforcing these rules, perhaps there should be rules for when a rule should be enforced.
This way, it should also be easier to define what the problem is when no action is taken, or action is taken late.

On a lot smaller scale of group work, I've had some quite good experiences with having rules for when an action should be taken. I don't imagine it'll be (much) less positive (albeit perhaps harder to implement) used on a scale such as with gentoo.
Have you ever seen Gentoo trying to reach an agreement? We'll start the process off tomorrow, by 2011 someone might have put something down on paper, by 2012 they might have talked about it, by 2013 it might have got to the council, by 2014 a GLEP would have been proposed and by 2015 it would be obsolete.

Unfortunately Gentoo still lacks that authority figure to really get things moving
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
Have you ever seen Gentoo trying to reach an agreement? We'll start the process off tomorrow, by 2011 someone might have put something down on paper, by 2012 they might have talked about it, by 2013 it might have got to the council, by 2014 a GLEP would have been proposed and by 2015 it would be obsolete.
:lol:
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
Zeerak wrote:
A few people have mentioned that they don't want to join and help out due to the inter-dev relations and the direction Gentoo has taken.
Pardon if I'm simplistic, but couldn't there be a set of definitive rules on when and where to apply consequences (from a simple conversation to being fired) be used?
I mean you have a lot of experience where situations have gone sour, and you have guidelines and rules but if the appropriate bodies are hesitent in enforcing these rules, perhaps there should be rules for when a rule should be enforced.
This way, it should also be easier to define what the problem is when no action is taken, or action is taken late.

On a lot smaller scale of group work, I've had some quite good experiences with having rules for when an action should be taken. I don't imagine it'll be (much) less positive (albeit perhaps harder to implement) used on a scale such as with gentoo.
Have you ever seen Gentoo trying to reach an agreement? We'll start the process off tomorrow, by 2011 someone might have put something down on paper, by 2012 they might have talked about it, by 2013 it might have got to the council, by 2014 a GLEP would have been proposed and by 2015 it would be obsolete.

Unfortunately Gentoo still lacks that authority figure to really get things moving


^^
I have seen a little (recent python 3 stabilization/news item in the dev ML) it does seem quite slow. But hell, if someone sent me a list of the issues and rules in place and a week or so, I could probably create a proposal (Or just directed me to right place to direct suggestions).
Gentoo is a big organisation but it shouldn't be so big that it takes much more than three weeks or so for something to pass through. A month and a half maybe and that's giving it a very long time. If it takes longer then (as I see it) there are some serious administrative issues that need to be addressed.
But to determine it one would need to see the guidelines and study the organisation :-)
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