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w1n73rmu7e
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AidanJT wrote:
w1n73rmu7e wrote:
Well, that's up to upstream, isn't it?

If it benefits downstream then its up to them as well. Patching the build system is every bit as important for distros as patching buggy/insecure code.
It'd take one hell of a patch to fix Handbrake's problem. From what I remember, the build system fucking downloads codecs during the configuration/install process. That is completely unacceptable. Obviously, build-time oddities don't affect other distros.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

w1n73rmu7e wrote:
To be fair, that is because of Handbrake's supremely shitty-ass build system.
I thought I'd read in the bug report that they were fixing that and the main nyet was due to not using system libraries. The argument for why they include specific libraries seems reasonable IMO.

w1n73rmu7e wrote:
One solution to this is some sort of system by which precompiled copies of popular software (or those that take a long time to build) for the most popular architectures and with the most popular USE flag combinations could be made available for download.
Didn't they try that and decide it was a disaster? GRP?

I should have asked ciaranm to clarify, but never did.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:15 am    Post subject: Re: What would get you dev-ing for Gentoo? Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
pjp wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
Done the dev exam?
I'm not a developer, but if I were, I certainly wouldn't take a "dev exam."
Good, it's comments like that that Gentoo needs to hear.

I've taken it, you need to to become an Arch Tester

I thought we were talking about Gentoo?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
w1n73rmu7e wrote:
To be fair, that is because of Handbrake's supremely shitty-ass build system.
I thought I'd read in the bug report that they were fixing that and the main nyet was due to not using system libraries. The argument for why they include specific libraries seems reasonable IMO.
Well, the library is tied to the build system problem. Instead of using system libraries to build Handbrake, they're downloading them at configure/compile time.

pjp wrote:
w1n73rmu7e wrote:
One solution to this is some sort of system by which precompiled copies of popular software (or those that take a long time to build) for the most popular architectures and with the most popular USE flag combinations could be made available for download.
Didn't they try that and decide it was a disaster? GRP?

I should have asked ciaranm to clarify, but never did.
Well, if that's the case, I guess there's not much that can be done. Then again, it might have been a disaster simply because of poor implementation.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
If you could spare a few minutes each day to help Gentoo, would you? Could you?

No I wouldn't. But you're asking the wrong question.
See, there is this "Gentoo" on my computer, right? If there is something that I can improve with it or a problem that I can fix, then I will do so.
If others can benefit from my work, cool.

cokehabit wrote:
If a package that you use needed maintaining would you offer your services?

I don't offer services. But I'd offer an ebuild.

cokehabit wrote:
Have you tried to become a developer before? Done the dev exam?

The idea of an exam for something like that is ... oh, lets just call it what it is: It so stupid it blows my mind.
Do you think you are some sort of special club that requires a membership card? Why?
And why on earth do you think an arbitrary test would be better evidence of my skill than the work I provide?

cokehabit wrote:
Have you ever written an ebuild? Could you show others how to?

Yes/Yes

cokehabit wrote:
AidanJT wrote:
After about 10,000 years. How long has there been talk about an official wiki? That's the problem with Gentoo, a whole lot of talk, and not a whole load of action. I can't be arsed with that.
http://gentoo-ev.org/wiki/Official_Gentoo_wiki :P

Oh thats cool.
Wait, why do I read about this somewhere in a thread in the off topic section of the forum?

cokehabit wrote:
There are some points that need to be fixed in Gentoo and one of those is the staffing needs. The more people like you an PJP who effectively say "I wouldn't go near it because of the convoluted process to become a developer" the better. Gentoo now knows from the horses mouth what the problems are.

Also, if we get people saying "I am unsure if I can become a full time developer because of home commitments but if could look after $package because I use it quite a lot" then Gentoo knows that it needs to rethink the organisational structure of the developer community.

Wait a minute, didn't I read something about this just today?
Oh right, it was here in otw:
"Early on, the marginal value of this complexity is positive—each additional bit of complexity more than pays for itself in improved output—but over time, the law of diminishing returns reduces the marginal value, until it disappears completely. At this point, any additional complexity is pure cost.

Tainter’s thesis is that when society’s elite members add one layer of bureaucracy or demand one tribute too many, they end up extracting all the value from their environment it is possible to extract and then some.
"
Sound familliar?

pjp wrote:
** Sunrise is a nice effort, and overlays may be a nice technical capability, but I really want a single package management system / environment. sync, search, emerge.

I agree that the current situation with sunrise is sub-optimal. But different ebuild repositories and a single package management system / environment aren't mutually exclusive. Well, at least they shouldn't be.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
different ebuild repositories and a single package management system / environment aren't mutually exclusive. Well, at least they shouldn't be.
I know & agree, but sunrise & overlays aren't new, so it seems like they could've been "merged" into "one" by now if they wanted to.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, one more thing for you cokey: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-816607-start-50.html
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:42 am    Post subject: Re: What would get you dev-ing for Gentoo? Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
A few questions:

If you could spare a few minutes each day to help Gentoo, would you? Could you?

If a package that you use needed maintaining would you offer your services?

Have you tried to become a developer before? Done the dev exam?

Have you ever written an ebuild? Could you show others how to?

In the past I might have answered yes. But in my admittedly limited knowledge of the bullshit politics and complete lack of any progress that has happened in the last several years, I'll answer no to everything.

cokehabit wrote:
Well what I am doing is gaugeing the community's view of the developer recruitment process.

There are some points that need to be fixed in Gentoo and one of those is the staffing needs. The more people like you an PJP who effectively say "I wouldn't go near it because of the convoluted process to become a developer" the better. Gentoo now knows from the horses mouth what the problems are.

Also, if we get people saying "I am unsure if I can become a full time developer because of home commitments but if could look after $package because I use it quite a lot" then Gentoo knows that it needs to rethink the organisational structure of the developer community.

People have complained and made posts over and over about how ridiculous it is to become a dev. And the devs always seem to respond with "we did it, we see no problems with the status quo. If you want to help you should suck it up and deal with it".

Gentoo has been plodding along for years now like a blind drunk lost in the fog.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:53 am    Post subject: Re: What would get you dev-ing for Gentoo? Reply with quote

speeddemon wrote:
Gentoo has been plodding along for years now like a blind drunk lost in the fog.
New larry logo! Cow in a foggy Londonish scene with a paper sack in his hand.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:47 am    Post subject: Re: What would get you dev-ing for Gentoo? Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
speeddemon wrote:
Gentoo has been plodding along for years now like a blind drunk lost in the fog.
New larry logo! Cow in a foggy Londonish scene with a paper sack in his hand.

http://omploader.org/vNDFpNg/larry.jpg

Done :wink:
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm becoming an Alpha Arch tester - basically half a dev, I'd be on the alpha@g.o alias and I'd get my name in changelogs and stuff, but without any of the developer access to anything or without my own g.o address. A few of us alpha guys are working on becoming devs, too (the AT project helps us help gentoo/alpha).

Currently there's a backlog in recruiting - devs are literally taking months to process through. There are currently two of us waiting for the AT thing to clear (this won't take long - one dev with whom we have contact has to add us to a couple of lists), and a few of us are waiting to become devs. Which will take some time.


As for regular development for gentoo - I've found the perfect angle. In the normal, x86/amd64 world, there are too many devs doing only certain things - what this means is, anything I can fix either ends up fixed within minutes by other devs, or I can't do anything about (stabilization requests, etc). I occasionally pick up a bug here or there (I fixed read-edid for kernel 2.6.26, and ended up maintainer of that package), but that's out of necessity. For the most part, I'll pick an angle that nobody's explored, and occasionally put some work into it (see poly-p-ux - the not-quite-ever-dead distro that will be cool someday), or help out people with whom I actually have a voice - and that's why I'm with alpha.

With the alpha community, when you work on a bug, you *all* work on a bug. Either it's a quick fix, in which case you really might be first to it (I fixed an ed segfault once - simple fix), or it's hard, in which case everyone's helping you do compiles to test the error, and directly through your help, you provide maybe 1/7 or 1/8 of the final solution... work that directly benefits you and 7 other people (probably more, including those without a voice ;) )

It may not be the most important work, but people have already got the important stuff handled... this makes you feel good inside, and good when you can put that you're a gentoo Arch Tester on your resume :D
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:06 am    Post subject: Re: What would get you dev-ing for Gentoo? Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
If you could spare a few minutes each day to help Gentoo, would you? Could you?
Can't spare the few minutes. And no, I wouldn't even if I could.

cokehabit wrote:
If a package that you use needed maintaining would you offer your services?

Have you tried to become a developer before? Done the dev exam?

Have you ever written an ebuild? Could you show others how to?
No to all of those.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
w1n73rmu7e wrote:
One solution to this is some sort of system by which precompiled copies of popular software (or those that take a long time to build) for the most popular architectures and with the most popular USE flag combinations could be made available for download.
Didn't they try that and decide it was a disaster? GRP?

The Gentoo Tinderbox has been available for quite some time. While not providing everything in every conceivable combination of USE-flags, you get profile defaults for a reasonable part of the stable tree.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:27 am    Post subject: Re: What would get you dev-ing for Gentoo? Reply with quote

runningwithscissors wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
If you could spare a few minutes each day to help Gentoo, would you? Could you?
Can't spare the few minutes. And no, I wouldn't even if I could.
any reason?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aside from the politics and a certain clique (which is a big turn-off for quite a few...) Gentoo needs to sort out the ringposting that is going on.

As gentoo grew the need for "some" bureaucracy was needed, problem is quite a few dev's started just sticking to their area's...
Every 6months I run a bunch of scripts over the tree and determine what packages are in need for a stabilization call (I then assign to correct herd/dev). One dev actually responded "Don't ever ask to stabilize one of my packages!"

W.T.F. a package that has been operating fine in ~arch for over 6months and some dev goes all ivory tower on my because I was doing something for the community...



There are alot of packages that are just left to rot or not bumped simply because people stick to their area's and pull the "I volunteer my time". There needs to be like a core list and every month or so a kinda mini-sprint where dev's regardless of their herd help to bump packages and bring other herds that are understaffed uptodate. Take a look at php... one dev and php-5.3 has been out for over a year AND NOWHERE NEAR THE TREE!!! other dev's don't do much because "I work in my herd"

Seriously FFS there needs to be more of a group collaboration, the kind of thing that happened in the early gentoo days. When gentoo starts acting more as a team as opose to islands with lose associations I and others might reconcider
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And user involvement and active engagement. And since developers pay absolutely no heed to users these days, this post will be summarily ignored and lead to nothing.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:20 pm    Post subject: Re: What would get you dev-ing for Gentoo? Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
runningwithscissors wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
If you could spare a few minutes each day to help Gentoo, would you? Could you?
Can't spare the few minutes. And no, I wouldn't even if I could.
any reason?
Opensores 'communities' are generally pretty nasty and hostile. I have never wanted to be part of one. I just love the free stuff.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: What would get you dev-ing for Gentoo? Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
If you could spare a few minutes each day to help Gentoo, would you? Could you?


From my POV there is no "a few minutes a day" middle ground choice. It's all or nothing. One has to try to forcefully infiltrate to become a proper member, so I guess the answer is no.

Quote:
If a package that you use needed maintaining would you offer your services?


Probably not, given the constant instability and infighting of the devs with EAPI changes and whatnot. I'll just maintain my own changes in my local overlays. Maybe also post them to b.g.o, but I'd mostly expect them to just rot there waiting for the heat death of the universe.

Quote:
Have you tried to become a developer before? Done the dev exam?


Maybe the existing dev base should first start living up to the stuff in the exams and "books"?

http://blog.flameeyes.eu/2010/02/22/what-s-wrong-with-gentoo-anyway

Given the amount of changes all along, maybe the exam should be such that everyone wanting to have a write access to the main tree would have to re-take it annually? Or even every two years? Like pilot's licenses, or (in some countries and/or jurisdictions) driver's licenses.

Quote:
Have you ever written an ebuild? Could you show others how to?


Any moron can copy-paste broken stuff from examples into a text file and call it an ebuild, but I guess your question implies writing ebuilds following the latest and shiniest new EAPI stuff? Earlier I would've said yes, but I don't know any more. What are the latest EAPI-fashion changes du-jour for ebuilds?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

++ to the last 4 posts
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo is dying, again?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erm67 wrote:
Gentoo is dying, again?
History is destined to repeat itself.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Arch added support for installing old versions of packages and didn't become unbootable after kernel updates so frequently, I would seriously consider jumping ship. When it comes to keeping packages up-to-date, they are unmatchable.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
AidanJT wrote:
How long has there been talk about an official wiki? That's the problem with Gentoo, a whole lot of talk, and not a whole load of action. I can't be arsed with that.
Apparently nobody else can be arsed with it either, which is why there is no wiki. Someone has to volunteer to get it going and then there has to be interest to maintain it.

We're working on making this happen now.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
pjp wrote:
AidanJT wrote:
How long has there been talk about an official wiki? That's the problem with Gentoo, a whole lot of talk, and not a whole load of action. I can't be arsed with that.
Apparently nobody else can be arsed with it either, which is why there is no wiki. Someone has to volunteer to get it going and then there has to be interest to maintain it.

We're working on making this happen now.
So anyone who registers can contribute? That's the kind of thing we need - ways for people to contribute without going through the dev test.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I intend to support that which supports me. I have freeloaded off of open source for a while now...

As of now, I don't know enough to have an opinion, so I think I'll learn a bit about developing, but I'm not good with politics. Maybe if enough of us look into this we can change it. At the very least, I'll learn more.
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