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pjp
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:59 am    Post subject: Windows may suck, but Microsoft... Reply with quote

Is quite crafty. Licensing plan could boost Microsoft.
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BonezTheGoon
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crafty as they are, I think they are planning their own funeral when they make plans for Palladium. If the current information is to be believed I think M$ will quickly find themselves the underdog--backpeddling as quickly as they can. One can only hope, eh?

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BonezTheGoon
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klieber
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Windows may suck, but Microsoft... Reply with quote

kanuslupus wrote:
Is quite crafty.


Crafty, my ass. They're being short-sighted, self-absorbed egomaniacs that have completely lost sight of their customers. They are pissing off their biggest and best customers. (I know, I work for one of them.) They're forcing people to bend to their will. Last I checked, that didn't make for a whole lot of happy customers.

In the enterprise world, companies tend to stick with an OS for at least 5 years. (I'm typing this on NT4 Workstation) This is mostly because it takes so damn long to upgrade 30,000 workstations and 5,000 servers, but also because it's expensive to upgrade every 3 years.

Microsoft is, in effect, telling customers that a 5-year upgrade cycle is no longer acceptable, and that now they must do it much more frequently (or at least pay for the OS licenses much more frequently, even if they don't use them.) The alternative is to get bent over later by paying much higher prices than is available through their "volume" license agreement.

So, basically, all around, the customer comes out walking funny and unhappy. Maybe it will boost Microsoft's bottom line for a few quarters, but in the long run, it's going to start chipping away at their market share. (we've already moved a few non-critical apps over to linux...)

My $.02.

--kurt
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BonezTheGoon
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
They are pissing off their biggest and best customers.


Yeah I read this article (which I think is long but a worthwhile read) which I think plainly indicates the strong possibility that M$ could put themselves out of the Business market very quickly by continuing with MSA and such nonsense. The article is titled The Strange Case of the Disappearing Open Source Vendors which sounds bad, but read the entire article and you will see where they are going with this title.

Enjoy the read ---> http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2002/06/28/vendor.html

I'm just glad I am getting so comfortable in a new vessel (Linux, specifically Gentoo) since the M$ ship seems to be rapidly sinking. Even if it doesn't sink, they still don't care "where you want to go today" regardless of how many times their ads ask you. They ask just to make you feel better, and then casually disregard anything you have said or requested. Then there’s Gentoo, they don't even ask me or put anything in my face. They give me a good OS for free! (Beer and Speech style) To top it all off though, they give me the keys to LET me go where I want to go, and they never question me. I also get free support from the Gentoo community which M$ doesn't even offer. The more I talk the more convinced I am--I'm in the right place!!!!!!!!

Enough rambling . . . . (Sorry I'm just excited)

Regards,
BonezTheGoon
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klieber
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another worthwhile article:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nf/20020627/bs_nf/18404

--kurt
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Windows may suck, but Microsoft... Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
Crafty, my ass.
:lol: I decided to be polite.

Quote:
They're being short-sighted, self-absorbed egomaniacs that have completely lost sight of their customers. They are pissing off their biggest and best customers. (I know, I work for one of them.)
Oh, I didn't realize this wasn't their Mission Statement.

Quote:
They're forcing people to bend to their will.
And this is somehow new?

Quote:
Last I checked, that didn't make for a whole lot of happy customers.
Last I checked, 'Noone ever gets fired for buying Microsoft' was the
response from many of their customers (perhaps not your employer).

Quote:
In the enterprise world, companies tend to stick with an OS for at least 5 years. (I'm typing this on NT4 Workstation) This is mostly because it takes so damn long to upgrade 30,000 workstations and 5,000 servers, but also because it's expensive to upgrade every 3 years.
No doubt this was a primary argument behind the new licensing change.

Quote:
Microsoft is, in effect, telling customers that a 5-year upgrade cycle is no longer acceptable, and that now they must do it much more frequently (or at least pay for the OS licenses much more frequently, even if they don't use them.) The alternative is to get bent over later by paying much higher prices than is available through their "volume" license agreement.
But.. but.. Microsoft is a good company that makes good products. [/sarcasm]
I know places that run Novell servers that don't have these problems. Not that
Novell is the only solution, just that many of the places getting screwed by MS
now, likely replaced Novell with MS.

Quote:
So, basically, all around, the customer comes out walking funny and unhappy.
Part 2 of their Mission Statement. Incidentally, Part 3 is to make the customer thank them.

Quote:
Maybe it will boost Microsoft's bottom line for a few quarters, but in the long run, it's going to start chipping away at their market share.
Lets just hope they don't react soon enough and lose plenty of market share.

Quote:
(we've already moved a few non-critical apps over to linux...)

My $.02.

--kurt
Woohoo! :D
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 8:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Windows may suck, but Microsoft... Reply with quote

kanuslupus wrote:
But.. but.. Microsoft is a good company that makes good products. [/sarcasm]


I actually like most of Microsoft's products. (and I'm not afraid to admit it :)) Yes, they have major security problems, but only if you don't take the time to secure them properly. Assuming you do, then Windows 2000 is a pretty darn good server OS and XP is a pretty darn good desktop OS. SQL Server is a good database and I have nothing but good things to say about Exchange.

All in all, I think they have a pretty solid product line. What bothers me is the company behind the products. (The "good company" part of your statement above :)) That's where the problem is, IMO. If Microsoft competed fairly, based on the strengths of their products, rather than using jack-boot bully techniques, then I'd probably still be using their products. In fact, the watershed moment for me was when I heard about XP's (then) upcoming "required registration" system. I switched to linux on the desktop almost immediately after hearing that and haven't looked back since.

--kurt
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 9:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Windows may suck, but Microsoft... Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
I actually like most of Microsoft's products. (and I'm not afraid to admit it :))
I can honestly admit to liking very little of what MS has produced. I'll admit to liking IE. However,
before Netscape had gone open (4.02?), I preferred Netscape. I still prefer IE over Galeon or
Mozilla. I booted Win2K for the first time in weeks the other day. I was amazed at how much faster
things seemed. I have never liked any iteration of the Windows interface. Though I will admit,
Win2K was probably the best. Also, I liked a couple of their mice. I don't care for KDE. I liked
where Gnome 1.4 could have gone, but what I've read of G2, I don't think I will like it either.
I currently use Fluxbox, but it is severly lacking IMO.

Quote:
Yes, they have major security problems, but only if you don't take the time to secure them properly.
I think there are too many myself. There patches have security problems. I think there code base
is so bloated, it is beyond completely fixable. Just as it becomes stable, they will introduce a newer
OS that they'll force you to upgrade to one way or another.

Quote:
Assuming you do, then Windows 2000 is a pretty darn good server OS and XP is a pretty darn good desktop OS. SQL Server is a good database and I have nothing but good things to say about Exchange.
I've not had enough server experience to be able to dispute this, and I don't necessarily disagree.

Quote:
All in all, I think they have a pretty solid product line. What bothers me is the company behind the products. (The "good company" part of your statement above :))
I agree on the 'good' part. I refuse to step foot into Wal-Mart as well.

Quote:
That's where the problem is, IMO. If Microsoft competed fairly, based on the strengths of their products, rather than using jack-boot bully techniques,
Amen. I'd buy stock if they did that.

Quote:
then I'd probably still be using their products.
I'd still probably dual-boot ;)

Quote:
In fact, the watershed moment for me was when I heard about XP's (then) upcoming "required registration" system. I switched to linux on the desktop almost immediately after hearing that and haven't looked back since.


--kurt
Same here. RH 7.1 (I think) was my first attempt. It installed well, but I wasn't comfortable with security.
Then I found Gentoo. I tried to escape the cold clutch of MS back in 92, but I wasn't ready for linux back
then (translation = I couldn't get X or ppp working). I had tried on and off for a while until some version
of Caldera set up most stuff without issues. Windows still worked better for me then though.

I'm also forcing myself to use linux so I can gain more experience. Unemployment sucks, and I'm
teetering on the edge of Entry Level experience with *nix. If I can ever find another *nix job, I think I'd
transition to intermediate farily quickly.
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BonezTheGoon
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2002 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XP, Palladium and MSA -- These are a few of my favorite things. (to the tune of "These are a few of my favorite things")

Uh no, I mean these things all started to "add-up" and about four months ago I decided I needed to jump ship from M$. I had been dual-booting for ages and used Linux for very little, mostly just so I could keep my finger on the pulse and so I could get some experience with it. I never did get wine working right when I was dual booting and I never did get my games working.

That fateful day that I completely rid my drive of all things M$ I swore that I would invest all my efforts on my desktop into getting Linux to be what I needed (and wanted, more specifically), no longer would I take the easy and comfortable way out (the M$ way that I was taught in business, school and among peers).

Since that day I have been able to get wine working, and have nearly every game I want working. Linux has always (well for the last two years anyway) been able to give me all my actual NEEDS--Email, Internet-access, etc etc--so that was no big transition.

I still support Windows 2000 and I work on it in the office, and personally I can't say I think it is secure given I am expected to take M$'s word for it. Maybe I'll let you slide that it is generally secure against non-M$ intruders if you get it properly setup--but there is always that question about what the code is truly doing. The only people who know what the code does have NDA's slapped all over them and so the general public is left to "trust" M$ who I think we all agree is hardly trustworthy. So it is NOT the script-kiddie or 133t_Hax0r I am worried about with Windows2000 its M$ themselves. They are not even hiding what they think any more they blatantly indicate that because you are running their OS they have control over what you can do with it (see this article --> http://www.theregus.com/content/4/25435.html titled MS security patch EULA gives Billg admin privileges on your box)

I love Gentoo! Linux has been trying at best in the past, but Gentoo makes it fun.

Thanks Gentoo developers you guys saved me from M$!!!

(Maybe we should move this thread to the Praise section?)

Regards,
BonezTheGoon
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