Gentoo fork???!

kikawala · n00b Joined: 20 Aug 2002 Posts: 41 Location: Dallas, TX

http://slashdot.org/articles/03/06/26/048221.shtml?tid=106&tid=185

iamlarryboy · Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 5:34 am Post subject: Oh oh.

I have read most of Zach's rant and it disturbs me. Much of what Zach is complaining about seems to be dealt with by the Gentoo top-level management structure proposal. However, the most important part of his claims, the "business" part, are not. I of course will hear D. Robbins out as well.

Regardless, I think the Gentoo project needs to CLEARLY establish what is bussiness and what is not. This should, hopefully, prevent these claims frum being made in the future.

The way I see it this whole affair is nothing but bad news. I hope and pray it all works out.

TheCoop · Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 5:37 am Post subject:

i wonder if the stuff about the management reorganising was done before or after drobbins read this article...
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Reformist · Guru Joined: 06 Oct 2002 Posts: 323

Shocking. Interesting nonetheless... I would also like to hear if Daniel Robbins has anything to add/comment upon.
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bsolar · Bodhisattva Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 2764

This is the announcment in gentoo-dev.

This reply from Daniel Robbins is interesting, just a quote:

nemiak · n00b Joined: 04 Feb 2003 Posts: 19

I can empathize with Zachary T Welch's reasons for a fork.

I have been using Gentoo on all my work and home systems for more than a year and i wouldn't want to use any other existing distribution -
but the seemingly closed nature of Gentoo development and the behaviour of some of Gentoo's management does disturb me (especially the exclusive/secret mailing lists, and the less than crystal clear commercial status of Gentoo organisations).

It is sad that Gentoo has such a vibrant, involved and supportive community - a community that does not get nearly enough consideration from Gentoo management, in my opinion.

I will reserve the right to change my opinion after hearing a response from Gentoo and Daniel Robbins, but this is not the first time a developer has been driven from Gentoo.

bsolar · Bodhisattva Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 2764

Moved from Other Things Gentoo.
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bcavalieri · n00b Joined: 27 Sep 2002 Posts: 72 Location: Kansas City

zzzzzzz I read the whole rant http://www.zynot.org/info/fork.html

I have been using Gentoo for production servers and the company I work for is rolling out Gentoo servers in many schools around the U.S.

And would never consider using an os built on someones anger than on sound principles. If that person were to get angry again, where would Zynot be?

-Bill

LJ · Apprentice Joined: 27 Dec 2002 Posts: 156

I was a little curious about that myself. Hopefully the gentoo top level management will be a little more open with what they do. The mailing list should be open and I think a little more QA needs to go into gentoo before it's really ready for production machines.

There does need to be some way or another to ensure portage tree and ebuild integrity.

Mnemia · Guru Joined: 17 May 2002 Posts: 476

This post to gentoo-dev by avenj seems relevant to me.

bcavalieri · n00b Joined: 27 Sep 2002 Posts: 72 Location: Kansas City

ptman · n00b Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 24 Location: Finland

I think he should have waited for GLEPs (Gentoo Linux Enchancement Proporsal, or something like that, sorry for my english), as they seem to become the ultimate way in which users of Gentoo can affect choices of the management.
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nemiak · n00b Joined: 04 Feb 2003 Posts: 19

If Gentoo goes non profit, that and the recent re-organisation of Gentoo management may satisfy me.

Less cloak-and-dagger stuff with the exclusive mailing lists would be nice too.

Gentoo gains alot from the support of the Gentoo community - the least Gentoo can do is be open.

bsolar · Bodhisattva Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 2764

This is another dev that left some time ago and complained about Daniel Robbins (posted just FYI).
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Mnemia · Guru Joined: 17 May 2002 Posts: 476

nalin · Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:32 am Post subject:

So in the case of gentoo is an "evil" fork a good thing or a bad thing? In seriousness, linux users are already faced with a plethora of distributions, the vast majority of which are extremely similar save some of the paths and installation interface, and the manner in which installation and updates are accieved (perhaps im oversimplifying).

The ugly proliferation of distro specific rpms aside, would it necessarily be a bad thing for another distro to adopt portage (albiet a distro that would likely steal some share of users), as it seems if anything that the fork, not unlike a better designed rpm system, would lead to a proliferation of content and better availability of programs in general. Though I realize that forks are not good, a distro by definition is nothing more them a collection of programs (though I like to think of gentoo as something more...nice people in the forums, hands-on-ed-ness, and one hell of an intemidating install...).

I think there is a large difference between forking emacs or the kernel or something that is inherently code based in its entirety, and something that represents ideas about how to package other code, and to a lesser extent utilizes new code.

I dont know, am really not trying to be flamed, I love gentoo, and thing a more constructive (albiet more ambitions) project might have been to build a new distro based on portage. Im not by any means knocking the developers or the community, rather I am trying to understand the threat/potential of this development...
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nemiak · n00b Joined: 04 Feb 2003 Posts: 19

lurid · Guru Joined: 12 Mar 2003 Posts: 595 Location: Florida

First I have to say that I love Gentoo. I feel its the best distribution of GNU/Linux avalible. That being said, I've seen things all over the place about disliking the managment. Regardless of how good the product is, the comments made in the reasoning for the fork article are unique in experience, but not in tone. I've personally come across a lot of dissension amoung users at the way in when the Gentoo devs do things.

I hate to highlight things like this, but there is a clear example of the egotistical attitudes of Gentoo devs here (and the corresponding garbage political crap that ensued). This doesn't imply that everyone involved with the development of Gentoo is a bad person, but my personal experience as well as reading about others experiences makes this "reasoning for a fork" article all the more believable.

Naturally it will be some what biased and one sided, as all storys are when both sides are in disagreement. I take whats written with a grain of salt, however I see where he is comming from. I've never had a personal one-on-one correspondance with drobbins, but I get the sense of an almost RMS style arrogance about him. And I see that this follows through with other devs as well.

Again, I don't dislike Gentoo or its community, but these kinds of backyard shenanigans can only hurt the reputation of Gentoo as a whole. It was stated over and over in the fork article that drobbins is definately interested in for-profit business, and if this is the case, then I believe that he should act as such. That being: ethical, responcible, open, and fair. This man did a great deal of work for Gentoo and was basically kicked to the curb.

I have to cry 'foul' on this one, guys.

DrkPlague · Tux's lil' helper Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 107

as a developer who was about to enter the gentoo ring, this has made me think twice about helping. I don't really want to get into personal politics, but I know that I will be watching this along with a lot of the development community. At this point all we can do is wait and see what happens yto our beloved distrobution.
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antik · Apprentice Joined: 01 Oct 2002 Posts: 212

Skip.za · Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 7:02 am Post subject:

I'm really not worried. If drobbins is a complete raving control freak it does not really affect me as I'm not a developer. As long as the project remains under GPL and continues to move forward I'm happy regardless of managerial style.

It really only affects the developers who come into contact with drobbins and if he is as bad as the guy who is forking is claiming he is then there will be a mass exodus of developers and Gentoo will stagnate and eventually die.

So until that happens I'm sticking with ye olde Gentoo.

bcavalieri · n00b Joined: 27 Sep 2002 Posts: 72 Location: Kansas City

Hypnos · Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 7:16 am Post subject:

asimon · Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 7:17 am Post subject:

bsolar · Bodhisattva Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 2764