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cokey Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 3355
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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fuzzybyte wrote: | I want iceweasel because it's GPL(>>better) and firefox isn't. | please tell. How does the GPL make it better? _________________ https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
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Bobnoxous Apprentice
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 240
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Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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psyqil wrote: | Bobnoxous wrote: | "The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves while wiser people are so full of doubt."
- Bertrand Russel (April 6th 1999) | Perhaps I'm a little off topic, but what's with the date? Russell died in 1970... |
You're right. I found this quote on http://home.cogeco.ca/~blade2019/quote_history.html, and it struck me, but it seems that this page has a wrong date for his death, and has misspelled his name. Go figure. Thanks for catching this. _________________ "The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves while wiser people are so full of doubt."
- Bertrand Russell |
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stmiller Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 28 Feb 2006 Posts: 119
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Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:25 am Post subject: |
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cokehabit wrote: | Bobnoxous wrote: | Quote: | i am not calling him anything, i'm just pointing out that you would have to be stupid to want it. It offers him a chance to retract his statement. | This is a technical forum. | no, this is a chat forum |
Heh! Indeed.
Gentoo Forums Forum Index -->Gentoo Chat |
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jerkface n00b
Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 65 Location: Tacoma, Wa
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Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:17 am Post subject: |
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cokehabit wrote: | fuzzybyte wrote: | So when iceweasel is going to be added to portage? I want it. | only an idiot would want it. | I guess that makes me an idiot then. _________________ Most Linux users don't know this, but the man pages are named after Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris fscking hates noobs! |
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cokey Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 3355
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Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:49 am Post subject: |
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jerkface wrote: | cokehabit wrote: | fuzzybyte wrote: | So when iceweasel is going to be added to portage? I want it. | only an idiot would want it. | I guess that makes me an idiot then. | i didn't say that, i'm sure you're not _________________ https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
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benny1967 Apprentice
Joined: 25 Apr 2004 Posts: 224
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:33 am Post subject: |
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jerkface wrote: | cokehabit wrote: | fuzzybyte wrote: | So when iceweasel is going to be added to portage? I want it. | only an idiot would want it. | I guess that makes me an idiot then. |
I'm an idiot too, then. |
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benny1967 Apprentice
Joined: 25 Apr 2004 Posts: 224
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:40 am Post subject: |
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cokehabit wrote: | fuzzybyte wrote: | I want iceweasel because it's GPL(>>better) and firefox isn't. | please tell. How does the GPL make it better? |
I can only give you my personal reasons, not fuzzybyte's, but:
My only reason for not using Windows/Mac OS X is the licensing. I don't think any of the 3 is better/worse, they're all fine for their respective audiences. (Never understood why people try to convince each other which is technically better or more user friendly or whatever...)
So from my point of view, trying to get a GPL-conformant, free OS, it certainly is better to have an application that also fits the picture than one that might have legal issues. |
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cokey Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 3355
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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benny1967 wrote: | cokehabit wrote: | fuzzybyte wrote: | I want iceweasel because it's GPL(>>better) and firefox isn't. | please tell. How does the GPL make it better? | I can only give you my personal reasons, not fuzzybyte's, but:
My only reason for not using Windows/Mac OS X is the licensing. I don't think any of the 3 is better/worse, they're all fine for their respective audiences. (Never understood why people try to convince each other which is technically better or more user friendly or whatever...)
So from my point of view, trying to get a GPL-conformant, free OS, it certainly is better to have an application that also fits the picture than one that might have legal issues. | That's the thing, it is not better, more conformant, free-er or anything - it just conforms better with the GPL. The GPL is just another license, and not the best of them at that _________________ https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
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Xake Guru
Joined: 11 Feb 2004 Posts: 588 Location: Göteborg, the rainy part of scandinavia
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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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benny1967 wrote: | Bottom line: Both are right, in a way, but I think MozCorp is abusing its position in a way. My sympathy certainly is with Debian, and I would love to see an ebuild that carries the Iceweasel Artwork, if only to make a statement on my private desktop (overlays, anyone ?) |
And the bottomline for mozilla is that they do not want to have a lot of bugs in their bugzilla about a browser they gave up half a year ago and/or they do not support anymore and/or is patched up beyond all recognition. The patches maybe are meant well, but for mozilla will be like supporting two diffrent version. Three if you count things like 1.5-branch and 2.0 branch and not going directly from one to another. (Currently for mozilla-firefox only mozilla have like three branches: 1.5, 2.0 and upcoming 3.0 they are working on side by side. And then you have thunderbird, xulRunner, bugzilla and all support they need.)
And they DO NOT want people to ship binary Firefox-installations boundled with A LOT OF CRAP like SPYWARE, ROOTKITs, MALWARE and/or boundled with other things that is a huge problem in windows without the right to sue people they cannot control otherwise for giving them a bad reputation. |
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EzInKy Veteran
Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1742 Location: Kentucky
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Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:09 am Post subject: |
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Xake wrote: | benny1967 wrote: | Bottom line: Both are right, in a way, but I think MozCorp is abusing its position in a way. My sympathy certainly is with Debian, and I would love to see an ebuild that carries the Iceweasel Artwork, if only to make a statement on my private desktop (overlays, anyone ?) |
And the bottomline for mozilla is that they do not want to have a lot of bugs in their bugzilla about a browser they gave up half a year ago and/or they do not support anymore and/or is patched up beyond all recognition. The patches maybe are meant well, but for mozilla will be like supporting two diffrent version. Three if you count things like 1.5-branch and 2.0 branch and not going directly from one to another. (Currently for mozilla-firefox only mozilla have like three branches: 1.5, 2.0 and upcoming 3.0 they are working on side by side. And then you have thunderbird, xulRunner, bugzilla and all support they need.)
And they DO NOT want people to ship binary Firefox-installations boundled with A LOT OF CRAP like SPYWARE, ROOTKITs, MALWARE and/or boundled with other things that is a huge problem in windows without the right to sue people they cannot control otherwise for giving them a bad reputation. |
Exactly. Debian, who promises to support all the software in its distros for years, needs to be able to patch at will. I believe they are still supporting the 1.0 branch. This is extremely important to their users who depend on a stable system because upgrading instead of fixing one package can break every other package that depends on it. Mozilla, for the reasons you stated, expects people to upgrade regularly to integrate fixes. Obviously both positions are completely logical and the only solution is for Debian and any other distribution whose users expect only security patches for stable software to rebrand Firefox. _________________ Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once. |
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cokey Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 3355
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Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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well at the end of the day the iceweasel way is the most absurd and childish way so no. _________________ https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
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Xake Guru
Joined: 11 Feb 2004 Posts: 588 Location: Göteborg, the rainy part of scandinavia
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Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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EzInKy wrote: | Xake wrote: | benny1967 wrote: | Bottom line: Both are right, in a way, but I think MozCorp is abusing its position in a way. My sympathy certainly is with Debian, and I would love to see an ebuild that carries the Iceweasel Artwork, if only to make a statement on my private desktop (overlays, anyone ?) |
And the bottomline for mozilla is that they do not want to have a lot of bugs in their bugzilla about a browser they gave up half a year ago and/or they do not support anymore and/or is patched up beyond all recognition. The patches maybe are meant well, but for mozilla will be like supporting two diffrent version. Three if you count things like 1.5-branch and 2.0 branch and not going directly from one to another. (Currently for mozilla-firefox only mozilla have like three branches: 1.5, 2.0 and upcoming 3.0 they are working on side by side. And then you have thunderbird, xulRunner, bugzilla and all support they need.)
And they DO NOT want people to ship binary Firefox-installations boundled with A LOT OF CRAP like SPYWARE, ROOTKITs, MALWARE and/or boundled with other things that is a huge problem in windows without the right to sue people they cannot control otherwise for giving them a bad reputation. |
Exactly. Debian, who promises to support all the software in its distros for years, needs to be able to patch at will. I believe they are still supporting the 1.0 branch. This is extremely important to their users who depend on a stable system because upgrading instead of fixing one package can break every other package that depends on it. Mozilla, for the reasons you stated, expects people to upgrade regularly to integrate fixes. Obviously both positions are completely logical and the only solution is for Debian and any other distribution whose users expect only security patches for stable software to rebrand Firefox. |
And that is a problem gentoo does not have when gentoo seems to want upgrades for securityfixes rather than patches. And going iceweasel I believe in the gentoo case would give more problems. look at gnome-packages... Currently the gnome herd have to patch the packages to work with firefox since upstream want us to go with xulrunner instead. |
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Xake Guru
Joined: 11 Feb 2004 Posts: 588 Location: Göteborg, the rainy part of scandinavia
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Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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cokehabit wrote: | well at the end of the day the iceweasel way is the most absurd and childish way so no. |
No, it is not. It is just another usecase. A bit like why someone prefers Windows compared to Linux. They just browse and email, they play games and they have their virus-program. They are happy with it becouse that is what they use their computer for. As with Ubuntu. Me myself have tried the Windows, Ubuntu and Gentoo and just becomes frustrated with windows and ubuntu becouse I have the feeling like I never got it to do what I want it to do.
For the way debian works they need firefox-1.0* since the other of their supported apps which uses gecko from firefox is just as old an can't be built with newer firefox. And if they leave it unpatched it becomes a security-issue. And mozilla does not let them distribute the patched versions since the patches is not by mozilla approved-patches and they do not approve the patches fast enough since they have newer things to worry about.
So in the end of the day everyone sucks and declares (flame)war for no apparent reason just becouse they think they understands something they do not. Like politicians. And thats why we got WAR people. |
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wah Guru
Joined: 25 Feb 2005 Posts: 453 Location: Raleigh, NC, USA
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Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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Xake wrote: | So in the end of the day everyone sucks and declares (flame)war for no apparent reason just becouse they think they understands something they do not. Like politicians. And thats why we got WAR people.
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Good line - I may keep this one for further reference...however, I agree with cokehabit that Iceweasel is a silly countermeasure. That, and the logo looks awful. It looks like the Fox is drunk or drugged or something.
Color me stupid, but does this thread in any way relate to the Bon Echo bullshit that keep installing on my b0xen? I haven't been following this issue until I stumbled across it today...
EDIT - [don flameproof jacket] Personally I think Debian sucks...so let them go their own merry way[/remove flameproof jacket]
Cheers,
W. _________________ - AMD64 3000+, MSI K8N-SLI, Nvidia Geforce 6600 PCIE, 2GB OCZ Dual-Channel PC3200,2x160GB SATA
- Registered Linux User #418541 |
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EzInKy Veteran
Joined: 11 Oct 2002 Posts: 1742 Location: Kentucky
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Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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wahman143 wrote: |
Color me stupid, but does this thread in any way relate to the Bon Echo bullshit that keep installing on my b0xen? I haven't been following this issue until I stumbled across it today...
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From what I read on various forums, possibly. Mozilla requires that to use their trademarked name and artwork firerfox has to be compiled in a manner that they approve. If you emerge mozilla-firefox-bin you get their official branding. _________________ Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once. |
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Phenax l33t
Joined: 10 Mar 2006 Posts: 972
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Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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EzInKy wrote: | wahman143 wrote: |
Color me stupid, but does this thread in any way relate to the Bon Echo bullshit that keep installing on my b0xen? I haven't been following this issue until I stumbled across it today...
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From what I read on various forums, possibly. Mozilla requires that to use their trademarked name and artwork firerfox has to be compiled in a manner that they approve. If you emerge mozilla-firefox-bin you get their official branding. |
It's like that because if you use Mozilla Corp. branding, then you can't redistribute the binaries/(artwork?). If you are not going to redistribute the binaries, feel free to use the mozbranding USE flag to enable official branding.. |
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Xake Guru
Joined: 11 Feb 2004 Posts: 588 Location: Göteborg, the rainy part of scandinavia
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Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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Phenax wrote: | It's like that because if you use Mozilla Corp. branding, then you can't redistribute the binaries/(artwork?). If you are not going to redistribute the binaries, feel free to use the mozbranding USE flag to enable official branding.. |
...and this is why gentoo do not need iceweasel.
Gentoo distribute the means to compile your own (custom) firefox (or use mozillas official -bin) and not any custom binaries.
Debian on the other hand has to compile their own version with the security-patches since Mozilla does not compile those old things themselves. And then get the approval to distribute the binaries/artwork as "Firefox". And then distribute the new binaries. And this is a rather long way to go for a little security fix, especially since Mozilla does not have any priority on old versions of firefox.
So Iceweasel is just their way to cut a middle hand Gentoo does not need in its current form.
Calling Debian childish for wanting to fast distribute security-fixes to their customers without the fear of being sued by Mozilla is like calling a mouse childish if it do not want to play with the cat.
The mouse is not evil, the cat is not evil. But the way nature works stills does not make them good playmates. And sometimes the mouse knows why. |
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cokey Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 3355
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:01 am Post subject: |
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Xake wrote: | cokehabit wrote: | well at the end of the day the iceweasel way is the most absurd and childish way so no. |
No, it is not. It is just another usecase. A bit like why someone prefers Windows compared to Linux. They just browse and email, they play games and they have their virus-program. They are happy with it becouse that is what they use their computer for. As with Ubuntu. Me myself have tried the Windows, Ubuntu and Gentoo and just becomes frustrated with windows and ubuntu becouse I have the feeling like I never got it to do what I want it to do.
For the way debian works they need firefox-1.0* since the other of their supported apps which uses gecko from firefox is just as old an can't be built with newer firefox. And if they leave it unpatched it becomes a security-issue. And mozilla does not let them distribute the patched versions since the patches is not by mozilla approved-patches and they do not approve the patches fast enough since they have newer things to worry about.
So in the end of the day everyone sucks and declares (flame)war for no apparent reason just becouse they think they understands something they do not. Like politicians. And thats why we got WAR people. | no, at the end of the day it is debian being a 6 year old child and spitting it's dummy out because it cant get what it wants _________________ https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
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Xake Guru
Joined: 11 Feb 2004 Posts: 588 Location: Göteborg, the rainy part of scandinavia
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:38 am Post subject: |
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cokehabit wrote: | no, at the end of the day it is debian being a 6 year old child and spitting it's dummy out because it cant get what it wants |
http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/pearls/archive/images/pearls2006152711214.gif
Oh, and here you are all grown up and know whats best for all and everyone.
Hey, I know! Become a president! Or, no better up: become ruler of the world! Or, nono!!! Become ruler of All Mankind And Everything Else (TM)! And while you're at it, try out as God.
Yeah, I really mean it. If you now know all and everyones best, why do not go make it mandatory for us poor souls who Do Not Know Everything As Good As You(TM).
Debian exists for a reason. People use it for a reason (And, no I do not know why and can not understand why). People fork it for a reason (and no, I newer liked using Ubuntu myself, but I know people who just love it somehow).
Just like Windows exists for a reason and people use it for a reason.
And if you come and say "It is just becouse they have not seen the light" (not just for windows but for all of them) or something else like that then I am afraid you really are a bit childish yourself. But mostly just not mature enought to see the whole picture and where the diffrent details (in this case distributions and software) fits in. And that is just sad. |
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cokey Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 3355
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:06 am Post subject: |
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lol. It's as bad as "what you have to understand", i want to say "no i dont have to understand it!!!""
Xake wrote: | Oh, and here you are all grown up and know whats best for all and everyone.
Hey, I know! Become a president! Or, no better up: become ruler of the world! Or, nono!!! Become ruler of All Mankind And Everything Else (TM)! And while you're at it, try out as God.
Yeah, I really mean it. If you now know all and everyones best, why do not go make it mandatory for us poor souls who Do Not Know Everything As Good As You(TM).
Debian exists for a reason. People use it for a reason (And, no I do not know why and can not understand why). People fork it for a reason (and no, I newer liked using Ubuntu myself, but I know people who just love it somehow).
Just like Windows exists for a reason and people use it for a reason.
And if you come and say "It is just becouse they have not seen the light" (not just for windows but for all of them) or something else like that then I am afraid you really are a bit childish yourself. But mostly just not mature enought to see the whole picture and where the diffrent details (in this case distributions and software) fits in. And that is just sad. | no, what is sad is someone saying "it's free, very free, very very free but just not free enough" _________________ https://otw20.com/ OTW20 The new place for off the wall chat |
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Conan Guru
Joined: 02 Nov 2004 Posts: 360
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:02 am Post subject: |
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cokehabit wrote: | lol. It's as bad as "what you have to understand", i want to say "no i dont have to understand it!!!""
Xake wrote: | Oh, and here you are all grown up and know whats best for all and everyone.
Hey, I know! Become a president! Or, no better up: become ruler of the world! Or, nono!!! Become ruler of All Mankind And Everything Else (TM)! And while you're at it, try out as God.
Yeah, I really mean it. If you now know all and everyones best, why do not go make it mandatory for us poor souls who Do Not Know Everything As Good As You(TM).
Debian exists for a reason. People use it for a reason (And, no I do not know why and can not understand why). People fork it for a reason (and no, I newer liked using Ubuntu myself, but I know people who just love it somehow).
Just like Windows exists for a reason and people use it for a reason.
And if you come and say "It is just becouse they have not seen the light" (not just for windows but for all of them) or something else like that then I am afraid you really are a bit childish yourself. But mostly just not mature enought to see the whole picture and where the diffrent details (in this case distributions and software) fits in. And that is just sad. | no, what is sad is someone saying "it's free, very free, very very free but just not free enough" |
You are wrong... big surprise.
It is not "free enough" for debian to keep it as firefox if mozilla doesn't allow them to call it firefox when they fix security bugs. Debian in this case isn't really forking it, they are just replacing the stuff that makes it not free with free stuff, logically enough. |
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wah Guru
Joined: 25 Feb 2005 Posts: 453 Location: Raleigh, NC, USA
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:20 am Post subject: |
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Conan wrote: | Debian in this case isn't really forking it, they are just replacing the stuff that makes it not free with free stuff, logically enough. |
Debian is acting against the wishes of the Mozilla "group" - that alone should make it wrong...free or not.
Conversely, if the Mozilla "group" considers Debian's practices against their wishes, then they should change the licensing to something more restrictive. Triple-licensing (if I read prior to this correctly) asks for trouble.
It's a double-edge sword, but it should be worked out as adults...not by crossing out the Firefox logo at an expo and posting your half-ass drugged pseudo-fox logo as some sort of protest. _________________ - AMD64 3000+, MSI K8N-SLI, Nvidia Geforce 6600 PCIE, 2GB OCZ Dual-Channel PC3200,2x160GB SATA
- Registered Linux User #418541 |
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Xake Guru
Joined: 11 Feb 2004 Posts: 588 Location: Göteborg, the rainy part of scandinavia
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: |
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wahman143 wrote: | Conan wrote: | Debian in this case isn't really forking it, they are just replacing the stuff that makes it not free with free stuff, logically enough. |
Debian is acting against the wishes of the Mozilla "group" - that alone should make it wrong...free or not.
Conversely, if the Mozilla "group" considers Debian's practices against their wishes, then they should change the licensing to something more restrictive. Triple-licensing (if I read prior to this correctly) asks for trouble.
It's a double-edge sword, but it should be worked out as adults...not by crossing out the Firefox logo at an expo and posting your half-ass drugged pseudo-fox logo as some sort of protest. |
Some of the things the Debian-pople have done is provocative and childish, that is a view I can support. But calling debian childish for wanting to distribute a secure product to their customer is something I can't call childish.
I just have to really get something clear: I can do whatever I want with the firefox-sources, compile it as i like, print it and use it as toilet-paper if I like, but I can not distribute it as binaries or alike as something identifiabel as "Firefox" without the formal approval of Mozilla?
And What Debian did was just make it identifiable as Iceweasel instead of firefox just to not have to deal with Mozilla for every security-update (Bon Echo that is the default name for compiled sources of Fire Fox is somewhat anonymouse and as it is a Beta-name for firefox missleading if you are using it). |
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Conan Guru
Joined: 02 Nov 2004 Posts: 360
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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Xake wrote: | wahman143 wrote: | Conan wrote: | Debian in this case isn't really forking it, they are just replacing the stuff that makes it not free with free stuff, logically enough. |
Debian is acting against the wishes of the Mozilla "group" - that alone should make it wrong...free or not.
Conversely, if the Mozilla "group" considers Debian's practices against their wishes, then they should change the licensing to something more restrictive. Triple-licensing (if I read prior to this correctly) asks for trouble.
It's a double-edge sword, but it should be worked out as adults...not by crossing out the Firefox logo at an expo and posting your half-ass drugged pseudo-fox logo as some sort of protest. |
Some of the things the Debian-pople have done is provocative and childish, that is a view I can support. But calling debian childish for wanting to distribute a secure product to their customer is something I can't call childish.
I just have to really get something clear: I can do whatever I want with the firefox-sources, compile it as i like, print it and use it as toilet-paper if I like, but I can not distribute it as binaries or alike as something identifiabel as "Firefox" without the formal approval of Mozilla?
And What Debian did was just make it identifiable as Iceweasel instead of firefox just to not have to deal with Mozilla for every security-update (Bon Echo that is the default name for compiled sources of Fire Fox is somewhat anonymouse and as it is a Beta-name for firefox missleading if you are using it). |
Correct. |
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Corona688 Veteran
Joined: 10 Jan 2004 Posts: 1204
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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wahman143 wrote: | Debian is acting against the wishes of the Mozilla "group" - that alone should make it wrong...free or not. | This is the risk you take with open source -- the source is open, people can use it. Presumably this is the point of open source. But do you seriously expect everyone who uses the source to be someone you like? Should Mozilla make an "open to everyone except those jerks at debian" license? Quote: | It's a double-edge sword, but it should be worked out as adults...not by crossing out the Firefox logo at an expo and posting your half-ass drugged pseudo-fox logo as some sort of protest. | As strange as it sounds, it is a real solution. They're not allowed to use the official branding while using custom patches, they want the firefox branding to be guaranteed to reflect mozilla. So they don't use the official branding, but a branding that points to Debian instead. The "protest" is stupid, yes, since nothing really had to change. The solution, is not. _________________ Petition for Better 64-bit ATI Drivers - Sign Here
http://www.petitiononline.com/atipet/petition.html |
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