Let`s do it now...

Newton · Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 6:35 pm Post subject: Let`s do it now...

Hello to all,
I just registered to the Gentoo.org forums, but I`ve been reading you guys for a while. I am a mandrake user, I tried redhat befor that. I`m quite new to the linux world, I`ve been using it for 1 month now. I have dual boot with XP to make the transition from the microsoft world to linux easier. After reading a lot about most popular distributions, I finally chose gentoo. I have not tried it yet but I`m pretty sure I`m gonna like it (Altough I plan to try Slackware...). I have a exam tomorow, so to prevent me to play on my computer, I though of installing Gentoo from stage 1, I`ll be able to study while it is compiling.

I plan to post back directly from my gentoo box so I guess it will take some time..!!

See you later!

ferringb · Retired Dev Joined: 03 Apr 2003 Posts: 357

Hopefuly you get this prior to the finishing everything, but if you wouldn't mind, I'd be curious of your impressions of the installation (aside from forcing you to do everything)... eg, areas where you had problems, areas that the documentation wasn't clear, etc.
For those who are toying around w/ the idea of doing an installer for gentoo, knowing the hang-up's for those new to linux hit would be invaluable. Other then that, welcome and viel gluck w/ the installation.

paranode · l33t Joined: 06 Mar 2003 Posts: 679 Location: Texas

incubator · Guru Joined: 05 Jun 2003 Posts: 584 Location: Belgium

DrkPlague · Tux's lil' helper Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 107

as a previous slackware users, i have to say that gentoo beats it by far. i liked the "minimalist" nature of slackware, and have found that gentoo not only provides this, but offers better security features out of the box. if you are trying gentoo, don't bother with slack, you will only be disappointed

ferringb · Retired Dev Joined: 03 Apr 2003 Posts: 357

foshdawg · n00b Joined: 27 May 2003 Posts: 63

ferringb · Retired Dev Joined: 03 Apr 2003 Posts: 357

foshdawg · n00b Joined: 27 May 2003 Posts: 63

UNIX is its pure glory (despite what you use whether it be Solaris, AIX, IRIX, SCO UNIX, et al) is a difficult thing to master. now, linux can be as hard as you make it but it can also be as easy thanks to 'certain' distributions trying to emulate windows as much as possible. i've used slackware, redhat, the BSDs, lindows (what a load of hype that was), SuSE, SCO Linux and a few others and most are just so simple to use. if you ever used DOS, you remember how damn difficult it was to remember the multitudes of commands you had to use, this is what slackware is like. there's no easy to use, widely distributed package manager (rpm, deb). slack uses it's own package manager and it's pretty easy to make packages with it but you don't just see the packages everywhere on sf.net or fmII (it uses special .tgz/.tar.gz packages for packaging). there's no pretty, customized window manager (unless you use dropline-gnome for slackware) unless you install it (even then, it's not customized). when you work with slack, it'll punch you in the face, laugh at you and then smile when you come back for more. and aside from the BSDs, slackware is the most UNIX-like distro i've ever used which is something i want. if i wanted to use something windows-like, i wouldn't use redhat or mandrake, i'd just use windows instead (no sense in using a wrench for a hammer when you have a hammer close by).

i really like gentoo, it's a very stable and fast distro (if configured right that is) and it can be extremely secure. if someone was trying to learn linux, gentoo would be a great start for them because of the simple wealth of things it gives you out of the box. but to me, i like having to sit there and configure everything, i like doing my own ./configure;make;make install (although...emerge is extremely nice, it's the shining point of gentoo for me). i'm just that type of person who likes to know exactly what's going on, why it's happening and how it's being done and that's why i choose slackware over pretty much anything else.

bsolar · Bodhisattva Joined: 12 Jan 2003 Posts: 2764

Moved from Installing Gentoo.
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nephros · Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 11:13 am Post subject:

For me, and others have expressed this as well, the beauty of the Gentoo install method is its hands-on approach, and it teaches you exactly what you have to know afterwards. This is the exact opposite of what a graphical installer does.

The gentoo install is user friendly. It does something Good to the user. Graphical installers do not. They leave you clueless, as most of them are more or less completely unrelated to the system they produce. (YaST probably being an exception).

After installing other distros, you don't even know which program to use to install packages, have no idea where your network settings are, and are where likely to start to learn to do everything using nice X-based wizards.
Out come linux users who fire up KDE to set their system clock.

If you use linux you will be spending time at the command line. You will have to know about you partitioning layout. You will have to recompile your kernel. You will have to be comfortable editing config files.
Why not go over this right at the start? It makes you feel better if you're through.

The gentoo install process is easy. All you have to do is follow the guide step-by step. If you look around in the forums at threads where people have problems, most of them fall into two categories:
a) Hardware not recognised (NICs mostly). Definitely a showstopper, but this would also be true for a graphical installer,
and b) user left out some step in the install guide. Sorry, dude, the forums will help, but next time, RTFM.

(Sorry for the slightly off-topic rant, but I shun, hate and fear installers since I saw the light at the start of the gentoo tunnel, and I want to impede and prevent any movements in that direction if possible.)
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Arakiel · n00b Joined: 15 Mar 2003 Posts: 16

I have to agree with nephros...
I tried various linux distributions over the years and none of them kept me as a user, I always ran back to windows because I thought windows was just so much easier. It wasn't until I realized that my problem with usability lied more in my unfamiliarity with *nix and my inability to make it just what I want and nothing more, rather then the systems themselves that I began looking into other distros...which is when I found Gentoo.
I learned more in the first hour of the Gentoo install then I had in years of off and on trying Redhat, Mandrake, and SuSe and their nice "user friendly" installs. And now that I've got at least a basic understanding of how my computer works under *nix I couldn't be happier. Windows no longer has a place on my machine (although I admit I've thought about setting it up to dual boot so I can play more games)
What it comes down to is, Gentoo teaches you. It made me a convert BECAUSE it taught me.
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r619 · n00b Joined: 06 Jun 2003 Posts: 2

Well this idea got into my head when i started to read a lot of good stuff about gentoo, i am to a fairly new user of linux ive used Rh (7.1,8.0), SuSE, and used a linux based firewall/proxy/router called ipcop . My experience has been great with a lot of challanges , and i think its time to my full change to a complete linux based system , ive had dual boot for about a year now .I only need to buy some need hardware and start , this summer vacations im getting a new job sow i can start the complete change ...

well see u around people and thanx for the help

Diezel · Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 6:19 pm Post subject:

Im with foshdawg here, I also still use Slackware. In one desktop and one server at home that is. My first experience with linux was RH 7.2 and I have to say I didn't really like. Don't know why. Then a friend of my brother told me to try Slack, it was his favo distro so I did. I was hooked at the second I booted it up for the first time. Slack is a really good distro, and I'll probably never give it up. Just love it. Ofcourse abit maybe, but it is the most *NIX like distro I've seen.
Don't get me wrong I really like Gentoo, the package managment is a dance on roses and the community is better than any other I've ever seen. Im gona keep using these two distros because they are my absolute favourites.
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bobby_j · n00b Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 60 Location: Columbus, OH

In response to peoples' curiosities about problems with installing gentoo..

I'd have loved to have some kernel configuration .configs.. some templates to work from. perhaps gentoo-sources or the gaming kernel, for example would come with some templates designed around desktop machines..
- OR

I'd have loved to have had some sort of "pre-configure" program. an ncurses (or even just a textfile and script) program with an interface mirroring menuconfig's interface (for consistancy's sake).

The goal of this program would be to simplify kernel configuring. It would do this by creating a template .config that you load when you use make menuconfig. It creates this template by posing a series or questions.. it'd be like a super-generic make menuconfig

For example:

incubator · Guru Joined: 05 Jun 2003 Posts: 584 Location: Belgium

a very usefull idea perhaps for a future gentoo kernel:

include n_hdlc by default.
I have major difficulties for setting up my adsl connection because n_hdlc isnt there by default. Even the deveolpers of the drivers can´t help me with this problem.
And if I cant get my connection up, I can´t do an emerge sync to download the portage tree and i will therefore never be able to install gentoo (let aloone use it

)

Genone · Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 9:06 pm Post subject:

I think the genkernel program targets at the kernel compilation problems. I hope the improved it since I tested it, the kernel it generated then was so bloated and lacked some (for me) important features. The main problem with the kernel config is the layout, it is already a lot better in the 2.5 series. Also the default config is a bit strange, I don't think the default user has a SMP system with several SCSI controllers. It would be nice if the kernel ebuilds would provide a default config that is better suited for home users.

nephros · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2003 12:19 am Post subject: Re: gui config

wilburpan · l33t Joined: 21 Jan 2003 Posts: 977

A very useful thing for beginners at compiling the kernel would be a document with all of the kernel options in outline format organized as they are in menuconfig. That way, a beginner can go through and check off the options that correspond to their hardware at leisure. I know I sure could have used one of these documents.

The other thing would be to make sure that each emergeable (is that a word?) kernel source available through portage has all of the required options for Gentoo set. The install docs state that "Prompt for development and/or incomplete code/drivers", "Virtual memory file system support (former shm fs)", "/proc file system support", "/dev file system support (EXPERIMENTAL)", "Automatically mount at boot" all be turned on for Gentoo, and "/dev/pts file system for Unix98 PTYs" be turned off -- at least for the 2.4.xx kernels. If kernel patches can be put into an ebuild, why can't a .config file with the required Gentoo settings that emerges with the kernel package be included -- especially for gentoo-sources?

Mystilleef · Guru Joined: 27 Apr 2003 Posts: 561 Location: Earth

Is it me, or do people just like the easy way out.

I know a guy who has been using Redhat for years now and doesn't know how to compile a kernel. That's rather shameful for (U)(L)inux user.

Agreed, there's nothing wrong in having more well designed, well written and well documented guidelines or manuals. But I think there are already tons of them out there. People just don't want to intellectually stimulate their minds anymore.

Admit it, we want to be spoon fed. Believe me, I'm all for improvements and contructive changes to Gentoo and Linux, in general. But only improvements that are pertinent, for example automatic hardware detection for all hardware types or upgrade to a more intelligent portage code, as opposed to those that are trivial, I need bells and whistles while installing gentoo or I need a graphic user interface with vioce activation and color coding, should be supported.

I apologize for my rant. But I believe there is a ridiculous amount of documentations, guidelines, howtos, tutorials etc for those who are patient and those want to learn how and why things work, with regards to Gentoo and Linux, that is.

Regards,

Mystilleef
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tphamm · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2003 6:27 am Post subject:

ferringb · Retired Dev Joined: 03 Apr 2003 Posts: 357

Not attempting to start a war here, but a few counterpoints-

ferringb · Retired Dev Joined: 03 Apr 2003 Posts: 357

tphamm · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2003 5:05 pm Post subject:

Ian · Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2003 10:00 pm Post subject:

for the installer, i have a better solution than a GUI, and (I think) better than what we have now.

a simple script, that asks Yes or No questions, based on the installation manual. for instance....

User boots up...

"Would you like to enter the Install Wizard? [Y]" (Those of you who have played with Cisco routers know the brackets surround the default choice, IE, hit enter, is the same as hitting "Y" + enter.

Hit yes there, and you go onto some descriptions of what you will do to your computer (ripped from the installation guide) and then it will help you do that.

"Would you like to partition your hard drive(s)? [Y]"

Explain hard drives, how they're accessed (/dev/hdxy) etc, then ask simple questions that explain the basics of Linux/Gentoo, while not fustrating the user.

Then of course, for the advanced user, hit "N" at the beginning, and get dropped into a command prompt. free to your own devices.

This is actually ripped from Cisco IOS, which is used to control routers. If you need to reconfigure a router, you can use their wizard, or do it by hand. it's easy to implement (compared to a GUI) as it could be a simple bash script. (simple is relative)