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digitalnick
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 7:13 pm    Post subject: /usr/local Reply with quote

I know it just user prefference but i come from fbsd and i really appriciate knowing everything i install after the base system goes in /usr/local. I think it would be nice to have an option where you want your installed things say even if i wanted them in /usr/PUTITHEREPLEASE :) just my 2 cent
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klieber
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2002 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo adheres to the FHS guidelines, so it's not just based on personal preference.

Not saying an option to change it is a bad idea -- just saying the way it is now is based on more than just preference.

--kurt
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mezz
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2002 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's insteresting, I surfed around a little in there..
Quote:
The FHS grew out of earlier work on FSSTND, a filesystem organization standard for the Linux operating system. It builds on FSSTND to address interoperability issues not just in the Linux community but in a wider arena including 4.4BSD-based operating systems. It incorporates lessons learned in the BSD world and elsewhere about multi-architecture support and the demands of heterogeneous networking.

Link: http://www.pathname.com/fhs/2.2/fhs-7.4.html

In BSD, the standard is /usr/local hier(7) man 7 hier instead /usr. I personal prefer it to be /usr/local instead /usr, but not really big difference thought.. I believe, Slackware is doing the same thing with BSD, isn't it? :)
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klieber
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2002 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that because FHS is based partially on historical BSD stuff that they should follow the current BSD standard? That's not what you're saying, is it?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, that's not what I said.. I am just wondering why FHS uses /usr as standard instead /usr/local when they learned from BSD, which BSD's standard is /usr/local.

It doesn't really matter to me if Gentoo is using /usr instead /usr/local as long it isn't in /usr/apps nor /usr/local/apps, which it's much worst.. If one of developers make the poll, then I would vote /usr/local instead /usr, thought.. ;)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2002 11:21 pm    Post subject: FHS Almost... Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
Gentoo adheres to the FHS guidelines, so it's not just based on personal preference.


Almost. It doesn't, for example, adhere to section 3.7.4 regarding configuration files in /etc/opt/package for packages installed into /opt.

Personally I think this is a Good Thing (tm). The less I need to dig down to find these files the better.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:10 am    Post subject: Re: /usr/local Reply with quote

digitalnick wrote:
I know it just user prefference but i come from fbsd and i really appriciate knowing everything i install after the base system goes in /usr/local. I think it would be nice to have an option where you want your installed things say even if i wanted them in /usr/PUTITHEREPLEASE :) just my 2 cent


Did somebody define what is considered a 'base system'?
I'm also coming from FreeBSD, and sometimes I have the same wish, but in FreeBSD it's quite clear what's in the base system.
I also appreciate the FreeBSD cvs updates of kernel, world and ports. And I remember the easy rc.conf system configuration!
Why do we have a small /etc/hostname file sitting in our linux system for the hostname?

But Linux is not the same. Would you store bash in /bin and tcsh in /usr/local/bin? Just a thought.

Well, it should be possible to organise linux in a BSD style, but I guess you have to do it yourself. :roll:
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digitalnick
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2002 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really love the way gentoo is developing and the developers are open to suggestions from the comminity. I guess i want what i want from bsd and i want what i want from linux smashed together with some other stuff on top. oh well i guess i cant have it my way unless i did it all myself. Just want to see if the community wanst the same things i do and if so maybe the dev team will oblidge us :) if not oh well ill live.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2002 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I really love the way gentoo is developing and the developers are open to suggestions from the comminity. I guess i want what i want from bsd and i want what i want from linux smashed together with some other stuff on top. oh well i guess i cant have it my way unless i did it all myself. Just want to see if the community wanst the same things i do and if so maybe the dev team will oblidge us icon_smile.gif if not oh well ill live.


Yeah. I was thinking that it might be nice to have an option to have some more of the FreeBSD userland in Gentoo as an option. In fact, it might even be cool to make Gentoo step outside the box, so to speak, and encompass the FreeBSD operating system as well. Gentoo is already very FreeBSD-like in the way it prefers to have two init states: single and multi-user. That's one way. Another way is the /etc/rc.conf. But Gentoo does in fact offer some improvements over FreeBSD, such as better handling of ports.

But enough of the blabber. What I'm trying to say is, Gentoo could be made into a BSD distro as well as a Linux distro. For example, you could emerge the FreeBSD kernel, and have some FreeBSD userland available as various ports. Gentoo could be made into an ambiguous FreeBSD/Linux distro, however you want it. Of course, the problem is that the FreeBSD userland and kernel are more tightly interwined than the userland/kernel stuff from Linux. Glibc with a FreeBSD kernel? It could be possible with Gentoo! Gentoo could offer things FreeBSD and Linux never did.

In fact, I read on one of the FreeBSD mailing lists one time that one guy had the idea that everything should be in ports, like the various userland utilities, etc. Gentoo has a much neater ports system, IMO. Gentoo has taken the FreeBSD ports idea, cleaned it up, and make it a little more useable.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2002 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmmgentoo wrote:
What I'm trying to say is, Gentoo could be made into a BSD distro as well as a Linux distro.


While that may be the case, the question is: why? The developers have better things to do than to try to make Gentoo Linux turn into Gentoo *nix. If you want to, go right ahead (this is open-source, you know), but there's little to be gained and a lot of effort to be expended.

So, again, why? If you like FreeBSD so much, use it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2002 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delta407 wrote:
While that may be the case, the question is: why? The developers have better things to do than to try to make Gentoo Linux turn into Gentoo *nix. If you want to, go right ahead (this is open-source, you know), but there's little to be gained and a lot of effort to be expended.

In my opinion, if Gentoo Linux is trying to get more of Unix-like, then it would be 10 times better than what's it right now. That's what Slackware always do that. :)
delta407 wrote:
So, again, why? If you like FreeBSD so much, use it.

It doesn't matter, he can make the suggest to see if anyone want to take the suggest. Linux has better support on hardwares than BSD does, so it would be nice to see Gentoo is trying to get more of Unix-like for the stability, realisbic and secure.. ;)
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2002 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mezz wrote:
In my opinion, if Gentoo Linux is trying to get more of Unix-like, then it would be 10 times better than what's it right now.

How, exactly, could Gentoo improve by becoming 'more Unix-like'? :?:

mezz wrote:
It doesn't matter, he can make the suggest to see if anyone want to take the suggest.

Right, I know. (Though I don't think anyone will...)

mezz wrote:
Linux has better support on hardwares than BSD does, so it would be nice to see Gentoo is trying to get more of Unix-like for the stability, realisbic and secure.. ;)

Examples...?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2002 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

What I'm trying to say is, Gentoo could be made into a BSD distro as well as a Linux distro.


Quote:

While that may be the case, the question is: why? The developers have better things to do than to try to make Gentoo Linux turn into Gentoo *nix. If you want to, go right ahead (this is open-source, you know), but there's little to be gained and a lot of effort to be expended.


Well, Debian tried it. But I think maybe my idea is a little over-the-top, because there'd be some nasty issues with BSDL and GPL clashing. The one caveat of my idea is that Gentoo is a Linux distro, and nothing more and nothing less. Also, it would require the developers getting up to speed on both FreeBSD and Linux kernel architectures, which, I'm sure, would be difficult beyond measure. But Gentoo still has some BSD software, and the FreeBSD kernel is just another piece of BSDL'd software.
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digitalnick
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2002 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was turned onto gentoo when reading that it is the marriage of bsd and linux. I love freebsds ports tree it has over 7000 ports, freebsd is rock solid and just runs forever. I love linux because it supports the latest and greatest and the community isnt affraid to try something new. The more the closer the merge between freebsd and linux the better i think gentoo becomes. I believe this is a flexible design the way gentoo handels ports is much better than freebsd. I do wish that the ebuild writers would maintain thier ebuilds and keep them up to date. I understand that they are trying to keep adding to the portage tree but IMHO its better to have a little smaller tree that is more up to date. and i do like how the base system is really small no ssh no nothing so you dont have to worry about patching up the kernel like bsd I like haveing everything in ports but thats just my opinion
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delta407
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2002 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

digitalnick wrote:
freebsd is rock solid and just runs forever


Linux, too, can "run forever", assuming you are rather careful and/or conservative with your setup and have good hardware. I know of several Linux boxen with over 500 days uptime. Really, once a box gets that much uptime, nothing can bring the box down short of hardware failure, a compromised program, or an errant admin (dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda... oops!).

In any case, I see little to be gained from a FreeBSD / Gentoo "marriage"; in fact, all things considered, I think such an arrangement would probably end up on Jerry Springer.
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digitalnick
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2002 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oooo i would hate to see tux and the daemon on springer.


although linux can run forever i wouldnt want it to ..... to me its a cowboy and should be constantly updated. bsd on the otherhand is tested and once deemed worthy is rolled out so there should be little maintence other than running services. any way this thread is reallly straying from the simple fact that i would like the option put in that i can choose to have my emerged files be placed into /usr/local/ :-/ oh welll still a great discussion imo
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2002 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, back to your question, there's no convenient way of doing it. You could, however, modify Portage to move anything in /usr/bin into /usr/local/bin before merging out of the sandbox, but that's a dirty hack. Don't count on being able to install to /usr/local any time soon.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2002 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I moved from Lawrence, KS late last year. Nice town.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2002 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

.....

Last edited by mezz on Fri Mar 28, 2003 6:56 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2002 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mezz wrote:
I got one question for you. Have you tried either NetBSD or FreeBSD, yet?


I tried Redhat 7.2, Mandrake 8.1 and FreeBSD 4.5-stable. And I want to say loud: I LOVE FreeBSD, but I went back to 'Linux from Scratch' and Gentoo because FreeBSD doesn't support my Iomega zip drive attached to a Promise Ultra-66 add-on. I tried to work it out with a kernel developer, to no avail.

Yes, Linux has better hardware support, and coming from FreeBSD, I can see that Gentoo has great potential.
Another thing to mention: in FreeBSD, I had a problem with the combination mozilla-and-gnome, sometimes the system froze totally 8O.
This issue is mentioned in mailing lists too.
--> I never have that problem with Linux.

Thank you,
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wilbertnl wrote:
mezz wrote:
I got one question for you. Have you tried either NetBSD or FreeBSD, yet?


I tried Redhat 7.2, Mandrake 8.1 and FreeBSD 4.5-stable. And I want to say loud: I LOVE FreeBSD, but I went back to 'Linux from Scratch' and Gentoo because FreeBSD doesn't support my Iomega zip drive attached to a Promise Ultra-66 add-on. I tried to work it out with a kernel developer, to no avail.

Yes, Linux has better hardware support, and coming from FreeBSD, I can see that Gentoo has great potential.
Another thing to mention: in FreeBSD, I had a problem with the combination mozilla-and-gnome, sometimes the system froze totally 8O.
This issue is mentioned in mailing lists too.
--> I never have that problem with Linux.

Thank you,


Well, the problem I'm having with FreeBSD and Mozilla now is that I have problems with DNS lookups. Seems like Mozilla's resolver sucks balls on FreeBSD. As far as the freezing problems, I've never experienced anything like that at all. The reason I was looking at Gentoo is that it seems to have such a nice systematic way of doing things, I just have to give it a try. I think the only realistic thing to do now is to install both Gentoo and FreeBSD, and see which one I like better. That's pretty much the only way to find out which one works out best for my workstation here. And once I decide which one I want to go with, I'll back up my system, reformat my HD, and un-tar everything back for good.

I can't really decide which one I want to go with. Right now, FreeBSD has more of the software I need in its ports system, so that's one deciding factor. I suppose lots of people dual-boot FreeBSD and Linux.

I know: we run both FreeBSD and Linux on top of Mach. :wink:
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmmgentoo wrote:
I can't really decide which one I want to go with. Right now, FreeBSD has more of the software I need in its ports system, so that's one deciding factor. I suppose lots of people dual-boot FreeBSD and Linux.


Well, what is your reason for making a decision? Do you even need to make a decision? Maybe you just want to know more about Gentoo.
For me hardware support was the reason to switch to Linux and I prefer Slackware for it's structure and Gentoo for it's portage. Isn't the grass greener everywhere else?

Although I'm enthousiastic about Gentoo, I don't try to convince you to install it. Overall it seems to me that you are happy now. There is not much to gain for you, I think. :wink:
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2002 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally started using Slackware as my first linux OS. I liked the structure because it reminded me of using SCO Unix to a degree.

I have always wondered why people didn't stay with the structure that *nix has been using for decades ?

And yes, BSD and Slackware have better methods of booting a system than having seperate directories for each run level etc.

Quote:
Slackware Linux uses the BSD-style file layout for its system initialization files. These files are organized and easy to edit. All of the system initialization files are stored in the /etc/rc.d directory. To prevent a script from executing at startup you can remove the execute permission on the file and Slackware will not execute it. The following is a general description of what the different files do.


SYSV compatibility is arse IMO. Makes things twice as complicated as they need to be, for no benefit whatsoever. Why anyone continues to use SYSV I have no idea.

It would be nice if the Gentoo developers could have a chat to the Slackware developers, and ask nicely if they could borrow their init system ;)
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2002 9:28 pm    Post subject: Re: FHS Almost... Reply with quote

Chris W wrote:
klieber wrote:
Gentoo adheres to the FHS guidelines, so it's not just based on personal preference.


Almost. It doesn't, for example, adhere to section 3.7.4 regarding configuration files in /etc/opt/package for packages installed into /opt.

Personally I think this is a Good Thing (tm). The less I need to dig down to find these files the better.


I could never understand why Linux uses an /opt. The way I handle this is to do:

cp -R /opt /usr
rm -rf /opt
ln -s /usr/opt /

This makes /opt a symlink to /usr/opt. :twisted: This is because I like to have the following partitions:

/boot 5-10MB
/ 80-120MB
/usr -remainder
/var 128MB
/tmp 128MB

Making /opt a symlink to /usr means I don't have to worry about / running out of space. :wink: So, you see, with the size / I use, I will very easily run out of space unless I make the symlink for /opt. But that's just the power of *nix.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2002 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmmgentoo wrote:
/boot 5-10MB
/ 80-120MB
/usr -remainder
/var 128MB
/tmp 128MB

Making /opt a symlink to /usr means I don't have to worry about / running out of space.


Right, unless you put much of anything in /home... ;)
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