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Gooberslot
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Joined: 27 Apr 2003
Posts: 26
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 Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 2:29 am Post subject: Why do the developers not give a crap about dial-up users? |
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| They did at least eventually add the necessary tools to get it up and running but no instructions in the install guide. You either have to figure it out yourself (which I did) or get smart and search the forums. If they can add scripts and such for PPPoE then how hard could it be to add some instructions for dial-up users? I wonder if the developers have something against dial-up users. |
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guero61
l33t
Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 811
Location: Behind you
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| I doubt that they have something "against" dial-up users, but downloading the sources can be very bandwidth-intensive and require LONG connection times. I think they just ruled dial-up out as a standard install scheme due to the difficulties involved. It's supported, but only by the community. |
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shadow255
Guru
Joined: 04 Apr 2003
Posts: 412
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 2:53 am Post subject: |
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As someone who originally installed Gentoo while using dial-up service (since got DSL, thank heaven!), I have to say that I did not feel at all that the developers slighted me. I guess I just expect it to be an extra challenge, tackling dial-up under Linux, so I'm not disappointed when it is 
I would never recommend a neophyte user with dial-up Internet access to use Gentoo. Even just doing an install from stage 3 took amazing amounts of time with proper configuration for dial-up access. The reality is, I might well have abandoned Gentoo if I hadn't gotten broadband access at home after getting it installed.
As always, your mileage may vary!
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pjp
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Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20067
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 3:06 am Post subject: |
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Rather than just complain, filing a bug report on documentation might yield better results.
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BradB
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Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 190
Location: Christchurch NZ
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 5:03 am Post subject: |
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I installed via dial-up, and I cheated by grabbing as many big packages as possible while I was at work (big fast pipe). This was pretty straight-forward and worked well.
OK, so people get linux in 3 ways (that I know ot)
1) Buy CDs
2) Get CDs from a friend
3) Download
Number 1 is out because by the time Gentoo CDs are on shelves the distro is stale. Number 3 is out, because nobody sane downloads 600Mb+ on dialup. So number 2. If somebody you know has Gentoo, get them to rsync & download so they are up todate, then burn the biggest files from their /usr/portage directory.
This leads me to the suggestion than perhaps Gentoo needs a helper script that would
- Allow user to select what you are going to install (KDE/Gnome/kernel) and automatically calculate the portage tree and what files it needs to fetch. Then fetch them & prepare to burn then to CD. If this script could run from other distros and windows, then you have opened up the accesiblity of how to get Gentoo. It would also now be practical for LUGS to run this script & promote Gentoo. Sure the CD might only be good for a week or so, but after the first major download the size coming down would decrease. Ie - this is a just a scaled back portage.
Comments?
Brad |
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zenlunatic
Guru
Joined: 09 Apr 2003
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| I would suggest just picking either gnome or kde, not both, and not downloading excessive packages like every MUA that exists. Get another distro, pick what you like, and stick with it. Saves a lot of compile and download time. I have -gnome -kde -qt and it saves time. |
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PowerFactor
Veteran
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1693
Location: out of it
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| BradB wrote: |
This leads me to the suggestion than perhaps Gentoo needs a helper script that would
- Allow user to select what you are going to install (KDE/Gnome/kernel) and automatically calculate the portage tree and what files it needs to fetch. Then fetch them & prepare to burn then to CD.
Brad |
This is actually very easy to do. Most likely been posted numerous times by others as well. But I guess it wouldn't hurt to have "emerge --make-download-list" or something. |
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FxChiP
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 103
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Number 3 is out, because nobody sane downloads 600Mb+ on dialup |
[British/Shakespearean-accent]Who are you to question my sanity, sir?[/British/Shakespearean-accent]
Seriously, though... no one downloads 600 MB that is a single file on dialup. Since it's all done piece by piece and you can stop for a bit or pick it up again in between packages, it's quite a bit easier. For me at least.
Or you can just take one hell of a nap while it does it all for you. Either way.  |
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ventricle
Guru
Joined: 04 Apr 2003
Posts: 305
Location: UK/Australia
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Or you can just take one hell of a nap while it does it all for you. Either way. |
Or you can sit there and watch the bites tick over, while your gf complains about getting no attention!
But you have to keep an eye on it, don't you! 
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klieber
Bodhisattva
Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Posts: 3657
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Why do the developers not give a crap about dial-up user |
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| Gooberslot wrote: | | If they can add scripts and such for PPPoE then how hard could it be to add some instructions for dial-up users? |
Since you obviously think it's very easy, please write those instructions up and submit them as a feature enhancement to the current documentation.
Gentoo Linux is built from contributions, not complaints.
--kurt
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axxackall
l33t
Joined: 06 Nov 2002
Posts: 651
Location: Toronto, Ontario, 3rd Rock From Sun
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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How about CD-burning the snapshot of distfiles on a weekly/monthly basis? Of course it will cost some money, but how about of making some money (just cover related expenses) on selling such CD?
I don't see a big problem with outdating. First, if you keep stable keywords you don't update often - perhaps you look for some stability. Second, you don't upgrade *everything* *everynight*. Third, most critical security update are usually issued for network services, which have small tarballs. So, a combination of CD snapshot and few downloads is the "golden middle", IMHO, for dialup users.
Gentoo (or even Linux in general) user groups may help with CD snapshots if you find such a group near you. Or some individual volonteers close to you. Does any one need such help in Ontario/Canada? I can help |
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klieber
Bodhisattva
Joined: 17 Apr 2002
Posts: 3657
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| axxackall wrote: | | How about CD-burning the snapshot of distfiles on a weekly/monthly basis? Of course it will cost some money, but how about of making some money (just cover related expenses) on selling such CD? |
We have a vendor that does that already:
http://www.hiiq.biz/store/index.php?manufacturers_id=10
--kurt
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ventricle
Guru
Joined: 04 Apr 2003
Posts: 305
Location: UK/Australia
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Since you obviously think it's very easy, please write those instructions up and submit them as a feature enhancement to the current documentation.
Gentoo Linux is built from contributions, not complaints. |
I'll write up some instructions on how I installed using a modem. There are lots of posts in the forum, but a document in the step by step nature would be useful.
Will be good, for the next time I have to install 
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pilla
Bodhisattva
Joined: 07 Aug 2002
Posts: 7729
Location: Underworld
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| PowerFactor wrote: | | But I guess it wouldn't hurt to have "emerge --make-download-list" or something. |
emerge --fetch-only -p package ?
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BradB
Apprentice
Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 190
Location: Christchurch NZ
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | This is actually very easy to do. Most likely been posted numerous times by others as well. But I guess it wouldn't hurt to have "emerge --make-download-list" or something. |
Ah, yes. However, my main point was that there should be a script/application that runs on non-Gentoo systems - Java/CGI sounds like it would suit. The app should
1) Read a config file/cookie to see if it is already configured - if not, make a sensible selection of packages.
2) Allow the user to select packages (should be sortable on size & name)
3) Download files just like an 'emerge -f package'
Personally I know lots of places that have broadband access, but that doesn't really make it easier to grab the Gentoo files - the kind of app above lets you use broadband without needing to install Gentoo (think ecafes or schools or businesses)
I haven't written Java or CGI since my university days, but it sounds like this could be whipped up in a few days by somebody who knew what they were doing.
If you could run this app/web interface from the Gentoo.org page I think we would see some use of it.
Brad |
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pjp
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Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20067
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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Search for a post in Documentation, Tips & Tricks by fghellar with "dialup" in the title (something like "download lists for dialup users". That'd be a good start.
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BradB
Apprentice
Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 190
Location: Christchurch NZ
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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pjp - dunno if your post was directed at me. Anyhow, I'm trying to say that installing from stage1 via dialup is painful and mildly insane to say the least. Most people have some sort of fast connection access, lets make it easier to populate /usr/portage/distfiles - for me, I'd use the app above at work, burn a CD of the largest packages and take it home. Then before I start emerging the base I'd copy the cd to /usr/portage - whalla, I have 600Mb of downloaded packages, plus an already uptodate portage tree.
As to actually installing via dialup, perhaps some info from the tips & tricks just needs to be pulled into a gentoo document?
Brad |
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pjp
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Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20067
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| BradB wrote: | | pjp - dunno if your post was directed at me. |
Anyone looking for a similar function.
| BradB wrote: | | As to actually installing via dialup, perhaps some info from the tips & tricks just needs to be pulled into a gentoo document? |
As I mentioned, fghellar's thread would probably be a good start. Get it formatted into standard "docs" format and submit it as a bug. Of course, fghellar's post may need to be verified for accuracy first (it was posted quite a while ago).
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Gooberslot
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Joined: 27 Apr 2003
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Rather than just complain, filing a bug report on documentation might yield better results. |
I didn't consider this a bug. A bug seems more like a mistake or an accidental ommision. This seems deliberate.
| Quote: | | Since you obviously think it's very easy, please write those instructions up and submit them as a feature enhancement to the current documentation. |
I thought it would be easy for someone who knows what they're doing. Especially for someone who was able to put Gentoo togerther in the first place. I'm a newbie and wouldn't know the first place to start. I stumbled on wvdial by accident looking for some program that might help me. I wouldn't have the first clue how to make a script to help setup dial-up networking.
If you think I'm unfairly complaining then give me a reason why there are no instructions in the install docs?
BTW, I've finally gotten to emerge kde on only a dial-up connection. The bootstrap was the most difficult because I couldn't just do an emerge -f bootstrap. The horrible thing is, due to disk space constraints I may have to wind up deleting the whole thing. I must be a glutton for punishment. But on the plus side I am learning more about Linux. I'm also really curious about when I finally get into KDE if Gentoo is going to have the same horrible font problems Peanut Linux had. Decent fonts should be one thing about an OS you should never have to work to fix.
And 600 megs isn't so bad, takes about a week to download. |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20067
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| Gooberslot wrote: | | I didn't consider this a bug. A bug seems more like a mistake or an accidental ommision. This seems deliberate. |
Fair enough. Gentoo uses the bug tracking system for changes and additions as well. For example, users submit ebuilds for programs not in portage yet. Programs that don't have ebuilds aren't omitted deliberately, it just takes time to get them in. Documentation is very similar.
| Gooberslot wrote: | | I thought it would be easy for someone who knows what they're doing. Especially for someone who was able to put Gentoo togerther in the first place. |
You are correct. Creating proper documentation takes time. Developers are busy, so they'll be doing things based on need, interest and other factors. If there is no perceived need for something, it will likely be a very low priority, even if it is known to be needed. If noone is asking the Docs people for a "Dialup users Installation Guide", they'll probably do other more pressing work.
| Quote: | | I'm a newbie and wouldn't know the first place to start. I stumbled on wvdial by accident looking for some program that might help me. I wouldn't have the first clue how to make a script to help setup dial-up networking. |
Alot of what is needed is in the forums, so all it takes is someone (likely someone on dial-up) to gather the information and make sure it works (then submit a bug for docs). The scripting part would be a bit more complex, but there are existing scripts. The scripts might be old, but they are likely still useable. Minor tweaking might be needed.
| Quote: | | If you think I'm unfairly complaining then give me a reason why there are no instructions in the install docs? |
Think I covered this.
Perhaps you could help get the ball rolling. If you've taken notes, try to organize them. Gather links to threads you've used. Try to come up with a basic outline of what steps you have to go through. Obviously much of the instructions will be the same as the non-dialup instructions, so you can exclude them. For example (only with better formatting): | Quote: | | Follow steps 1 through x. Do this, that and the other thing. Continue with step y from the Install guide. |
Once you've got a basic outline, create a thread in Documentation, Tips & Tricks including links to threads you've used. Hopefully you'll get some help from other dial-up users.
EDIT: For starters, the post by fghellar that I was referring to is Download lists for dial up users.
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FruitCake
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Joined: 24 Oct 2002
Posts: 34
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| BradB wrote: | | Number 3 is out, because nobody sane downloads 600Mb+ on dialup. So number 2. |
I must be insane then, I've done all my gentoo installations over a 56k (3 full installs with X, gnome, kde and all the crap). I dont even think about it, but then i normally average 4 to 6gb a month (5.7gb last month) on my 56k modem.
just pulled down knoppix, 2 and a half days to download so its only time, its not like it costs anything. |
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BradB
Apprentice
Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 190
Location: Christchurch NZ
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2003 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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FruitCake - WOW! If I had a dedicated line I'd probably sit on the whole time, but occasionally real life people need to call me & I'd hate to miss that!!
But still, that's a lot of work for your poor modem!
Brad |
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uzik
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Joined: 17 Apr 2003
Posts: 257
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Why do the developers not give a crap about dial-up user |
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| Gooberslot wrote: | | They did at least eventually add the necessary tools to get it up and running but no instructions in the install guide. You either have to figure it out yourself (which I did) or get smart and search the forums. If they can add scripts and such for PPPoE then how hard could it be to add some instructions for dial-up users? I wonder if the developers have something against dial-up users. |
Would you write up a set of instructions and post them for others? |
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pilla
Bodhisattva
Joined: 07 Aug 2002
Posts: 7729
Location: Underworld
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Why do the developers not give a crap about dial-up user |
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I cannot stress this enough, have you searched through the forums?
| uzik wrote: | | Gooberslot wrote: | | They did at least eventually add the necessary tools to get it up and running but no instructions in the install guide. You either have to figure it out yourself (which I did) or get smart and search the forums. If they can add scripts and such for PPPoE then how hard could it be to add some instructions for dial-up users? I wonder if the developers have something against dial-up users. |
Would you write up a set of instructions and post them for others? |
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