Do you want initscripts in Python?

axxackall

Recent GWN pointed to very interesting mail-list discussion of gentoo developers about cons and pros of having initscripts on Python.

While developers pay more attention on development issues, it would be interesting to know the opinion of broader gentoo masses, let's say, of non-ebuilding or not-regularly-ebuilding users

charlieg · Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 8:15 am Post subject:

Okay, supposing you make a mistake or, less likely, portage hoses itself and python. I've done it. Countless others have done it. Remember the whole range of issues when glibc went from 2.2 to 2.3? Those issues all killed python.

If the init scripts were in python, you'd be up sh1t creek without a paddle. Well, not that bad, but you'd certainly have to use a boot disk to recover your system, rather than be able to do it directly.
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duff · Guru Joined: 19 Jun 2002 Posts: 466 Location: Clemson, SC

I see no point in using Python for init scripts. Thier main function is to spawn new processes (ie.starting daemons), and a bash script is perfect in that case.

Lovechild · Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 1:54 pm Post subject:

I can see both good and bad... I mean we could go do a lot cool stuff with the init scripts - I'm thinking it might be possible to do something clever in a few lines to help people like me who switch networks on our laptops between reboots (school and home fx.) - python might makes this easier - and more fun

on the other hand it might create havoc, and we don't want that.

Jarjar · Apprentice Joined: 21 Jul 2002 Posts: 265 Location: Sweden

Elay · n00b Joined: 30 Mar 2003 Posts: 25

it would be good if we lived in a perfect world. But Murphy lives as we all know.
It would break compatibility and habits.
my 2 cents :roll:

panserg · Apprentice Joined: 16 Apr 2003 Posts: 188

How about OOP of Python? Would it be any good to have classes inheriting from more abstract classes common methds and properties of their behaviour? Honestly, each time I see the mess in /etc I want to re-write it to something more structured.

The only problem stops me (besides availability of free time) is that every daemon and utility wants to have own format of config files. So, at first the configuration facility must be created (aka LDAP), then it's API must be published and standardized. Then we should wait when all (most of) tools will be re-written to use such a configuration facility. Then we can re-write /etc (not only /etc/init.d).

Alternatevly, we can see how it's done with famous linuxconf. That configuration tool has own database and own UI to change it. Once you change something then it will generate actual config file and save it /etc. BTW, linuxconf handles initscripts as well. So, if we talk about porting something like linuxconf into Python and Gentoo than I am in support of it and eager to take a part.

charlieg · Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 2:55 pm Post subject:

You have some good points there panserg. Although maybe I'm being influenced by your uber cool avatar.

Anyway...

Yeah, OOP might be nice although I doubt it would be *that* handy since most initscripts vary somewhat and the shared parts are really fairly minor.

Perhaps having it as part of a Gentoo-ised linuxconf would be cool.

I liked Lovechild's point the best:

Lovechild · Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 3:11 pm Post subject:

Well, it was all I had up my hat at the moment, but I think we could get some pretty advanced stuff in our initscripts, and almost for free..

panserg · Apprentice Joined: 16 Apr 2003 Posts: 188

Among "cool" thing requiring Python's "coolness" I would enlist at least:

1. starting daemon concurrently with run-time dependency control: it doesn't actually matter in which order they are started, it does matter that they depend on each other, python threads can work very good here;
2. fine-grained status control, i.e. BIND might be started, but it's still didn't cache its secondary zones, which are needed for some services, same for LDAP (service using local user are ok to start, but services using remotely cached users must wait), same for AFS (don't start apache yet if AFS did not sync FS with the doc root);
3. transactions: some changes in config files must be atomic, to avoid inconsistency (like, create the user and it's group in /etc/hosts and /etc/group at once);
4. version control of configuration values: should we keep dreaming about it or should we do something? Personally, I'd like to rollback changes several steps back. Also I'd like to have mulitple versions of some values - just for testing.

pilla · Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 6:43 pm Post subject:

You can do this using CVS very easily

axxackall · Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 7:38 pm Post subject:

gsfgf · Veteran Joined: 08 May 2002 Posts: 1266

uh, i see no disadvantages, but initscripts sure seem like what bash was intended for.
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Genone · Posted: Thu May 01, 2003 11:54 pm Post subject:

Of course init-scripts would be cleaner and (hopefully) easier to understand.
but I think the disadvantages are too important:

init-scripts are a critical part of the system, errors can be fatal
a huge amount of work for developers
python would become a critical component for the base system (currently it's important, but not critical, you can run the system without it)

dice · Guru Joined: 21 Apr 2002 Posts: 577

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