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nbkolchin
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 6:51 am    Post subject: OpenGL future Reply with quote

Call to Action: Ensure that OpenGL remains a first class API under Windows Vista

Quote:
Microsoft's current plan for OpenGL on Windows Vista is to layer OpenGL over Direct3D in order to use OpenGL with a composited desktop to obtain the Aeroglass experience. If an OpenGL ICD is run - the desktop compositor will switch off - significantly degrading the user experience.

In practice this means for OpenGL under Aeroglass:

  • OpenGL performance will be significantly reduced - perhaps as much as 50%
  • OpenGL on Windows will be fixed at a vanilla version of OpenGL 1.4
  • No extensions will be possible to expose future hardware innovations

It would be technically straightforward to provide an OpenGL ICD within the full Aeroglass experience without compromising the stability or the security of the operating system. Layering OpenGL over Direct3D is a policy more than a technical decision.

...


Technically, this mean that there will be even less number of Linux native 3d software --- i.e. games.

Your opinion?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:10 am    Post subject: Re: OpenGL future Reply with quote

nbkolchin wrote:
Your opinion?

MS sucks
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Shadow Skill
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a load of bull jeez.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

business tactic.

MS realises that the main thing that is keeping a major exedus from windows to MS is games.
Cedega/Wine is and never will be an option

OpenGL is the only real alternative (with ALSA+Mixer)
NOw since hte majority of users are windows users, game makers will (for the forceable future) have to make games for windows (to get the revinue) and have Linux as a 2nd thought.

NOw the few gamne companies that do this (sorry only know games: Doom,Quake,UT,NWN) use OpenGL, well have to for linux, IF under windows OpenGL is crippled then they will have to used DirectX without proding a "crippled" game for windows - their primary revinue source.

Now I believe UT runs in DirectX or OpenGL so that wont stop them. However, other game companies who want to break inot OpenGL (prolly licence fees) will find this harder, thus stopping the game producer exedus away from DirectX that is needed before such an exedus away from Windows "could" begin


This is really bad, and anti-monoply if it is confirmed. Intentially crippling a "rivels" product is what Windows was taken to court over and found guilty. Just because OPenGL is OpenSource makes no difference


Equally all the big redering farms use OpenGL, so they wont go for windows Vista
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Mo6eB
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that apply only to the OpenGL driver provided with Vista and not to the one which is provided by the graphics driver and replaces the default one? nVidia and ATI's drivers provide their own OpenGL drivers and while ATI might do something like this I think that nVidia would never cripple OpenGL.
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nbkolchin
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mo6eB wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that apply only to the OpenGL driver provided with Vista and not to the one which is provided by the graphics driver and replaces the default one? nVidia and ATI's drivers provide their own OpenGL drivers and while ATI might do something like this I think that nVidia would never cripple OpenGL.


If an OpenGL ICD is run - the desktop compositor will switch off - significantly degrading the user experience.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can still install/use OpenGL, Windows just cripples the visual effects of window (transparency...) but the chances are these will have to be disabled anyway on release of Vista next year due to the system demand
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OpenGL CAN be run but only as a layer above DirectX if you don't want to lose the compositor. That would prolly kill the performance. And the DX layer only supports OGL 1.4 without any extensions.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then just switch off the Aeroglass apearance when an OpenGL app is run and restart it when it exits. If OpenGL really becomes that crippled , it would be interesting what will happen to upcoming games like Quake4, which uses DOOM3's engine. Mac and Linux version only?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most games you will run fullscreen anyway, so why do you even need transparency?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With all of this taking place, isn't it about time that a DirectX equivalent is created for linux, or, at the very least, somebody make DirectX native to linux and then 1)provide gpu,soundcard, and input manufacturers incentive to standardize drivers across platforms, or 2)create wrapper classes for drivers.

The second option almost doesn't seem feasible b/c you either need deep pockets or you'll have to make users settle for slow+ugly wrapper classes that won't always work. Not only that, but keeping all of that up-to-date is a nightmare, minus the ever-changing Direct3D portion of DirectX. Creating an equivalent seems the way to go.

hmmm....

DirectX is a standardized library for quickly handling I/O and Graphics calls. Here's a rundown of it's libraries:

DirectX Graphics
Direct Input
Direct Play
Direct Setup
DirectX Audio
Direct Show

As you can see, it's got all the bases covered. It also has a software emulation layer and a hardware abstraction layer (HEL and HAL). The idea is that any call will first try to be executed by the HAL, so that it is hardware accelerated. If the call isn't supported, the HEL will kick in and run software routines to, while slower, accomplish the same thing without interruption.

Wow. This would be quite an undertaking: Anyone up to this?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Wow. This would be quite an undertaking: Anyone up to this?

Help improving/advancing SDL seems like a better idea
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Mo6eB
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dfitzpat wrote:
With all of this taking place, isn't it about time that a DirectX equivalent is created for linux, or, at the very least, somebody make DirectX native to linux and then 1)provide gpu,soundcard, and input manufacturers incentive to standardize drivers across platforms, or 2)create wrapper classes for drivers.

The second option almost doesn't seem feasible b/c you either need deep pockets or you'll have to make users settle for slow+ugly wrapper classes that won't always work. Not only that, but keeping all of that up-to-date is a nightmare, minus the ever-changing Direct3D portion of DirectX. Creating an equivalent seems the way to go.

hmmm....

DirectX is a standardized library for quickly handling I/O and Graphics calls. Here's a rundown of it's libraries:

DirectX Graphics
Direct Input
Direct Play
Direct Setup
DirectX Audio
Direct Show

As you can see, it's got all the bases covered. It also has a software emulation layer and a hardware abstraction layer (HEL and HAL). The idea is that any call will first try to be executed by the HAL, so that it is hardware accelerated. If the call isn't supported, the HEL will kick in and run software routines to, while slower, accomplish the same thing without interruption.

Wow. This would be quite an undertaking: Anyone up to this?


And what do you think the WINE guys are doing? Btw, SDL is already there and maybe even a bit beyond. It doesn't have something like Direct 3D, but you can use OpenGL for it. I mean on things other than windows.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mo6eB wrote:
And what do you think the WINE guys are doing?
Judging by where it's placed in portage: app-emulation/, I'd say they're creating an emulator. It's the best (for free), mind you, but it isn't quite what I'm talking about.
Mo6eB wrote:
Btw, SDL is already there and maybe even a bit beyond. It doesn't have something like Direct 3D, but you can use OpenGL for it. I mean on things other than windows.
Maybe it's just me, but I'm not a big fan of loosely integrated projects unless they can be proven to be better, and besides, moving away from OpenGL due to this new innitiative by Microsoft is kind of the point. This burns me to no end (OpenGL is soooo much easier than D3D), but if game producers have all this new incentive not to program using OpenGL, then we need something new, something that MS can't just 'integrate', something that is, in fact, a replacement for DirectX but favors Linux.

I think -Rick- had the right idea. SDL seems to be most of the way there: maybe they could collaborate with the OpenGL guys and pull this off. It would be the end of OpenGL, but the beginning of SDL as a fully-loaded replacement for DirectX.
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-=GGW=- $ol!d $n4>|e
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what the hell is wrong with microsoft, they own the proprietary world so now they need to own the open source world as well? God damn, bill gates can rot alont with all those who mindlessly support his cause the technology world will NOT be run by microsoft... :x

Last edited by -=GGW=- $ol!d $n4>|e on Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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nighty
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think that if at one point we will want to have a mature game develpment on linux there needs to be a more complete solution like directx. using opengl+alsa will only put extra burden on developers. if linux wants to succeed it needs to supply its own solution which will be open complete and more powerful to the developer than directx.

the fact remains that serious game companies like blizzard who fall behind deadlines and like their products polished prefer directx because it offers an easier and integrated solution.

i dont think thats a problem really, linux has a history in supplying such solutions eventually.mono is a very good example. the only difference is that this is a field which most of the experienced developers would rather work with the microsoft solution then moving into actually making a linux tool.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

-=GGW=- $ol!d $n4>|e wrote:
what the hell is wrong with microsoft, they own the proprietary world so now they need to own the open source world as well? God damn, bill gates can rot alont with all those who mindlessly support his cause the technology world will NOT be run by microsoft... :x

I think MS dont really want to own OSS, they just want it gone. The proprietary model gives them lots of revenues.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dfitzpat wrote:
Mo6eB wrote:
And what do you think the WINE guys are doing?

Judging by where it's placed in portage: app-emulation/, I'd say they're creating an emulator. It's the best (for free), mind you, but it isn't quite what I'm talking about.

Yes, it is misplaced: Wine Is Not an Emulator, it is an implementation of the 9x/NT infrastructure into *nix. All it does in the "emulation" business is translating directx calls to opengl ones.

And yes I agree with the SDL+OpenGL idea here, would be a large step forwards.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Current DirectX is ages beyond SDL: 3DSound, Video processing, Sound streaming, etc. SDL is good for simple 2D games and nothing more. (OpenML is much more interesting DirectX alternative)

2. It looks like most of you missed the main problem: OpenGL + OpenAL games can be ported to Linux from Windows without much problem (Quake3, Doom3). But game porting is still a hard process. Remember how much time passed before Doom3 Linux release after Windows version shipping?

But DirectX games can't be ported easily. (UT port is handled by Icculus who is genius and unique).

Since Linux games market is non-profitable, most companies wouldn't bother about porting.

If OpenGL become second-level API on next generation Windows system, most (read all) game companies will not use it (or even bother about it) in their new games. And chances for Linux port will go to zero.
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Mo6eB
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the problem with SDL + OpenGL? They work perfectly well together.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nbkolchin wrote:
(OpenML is much more interesting DirectX alternative)

I must say that it sounds interesting. But why can't SDL support that role?
libsdl.org wrote:
Simple DirectMedia Layer is a cross-platform multimedia library designed to provide low level access to audio, keyboard, mouse, joystick, 3D hardware via OpenGL, and 2D video framebuffer. It is used by MPEG playback software, emulators, and many popular games, including the award winning Linux port of "Civilization: Call To Power."


Last edited by Q-collective on Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what about all the cad users etc whos software costs tens of thousands per seat, try telling them to upgrade so they can get 50% the performance.

i get the feeling a monopolies commision investigation might look very hashly on this type of action
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mo6eB wrote:
What is the problem with SDL + OpenGL? They work perfectly well together.
the porting proccess just isnt worth their time. even if vista wont hurt opengl performance you can see today that on windows xp there are many more titles which support direct3d alone since directx9 came out. directx gives a complete integrated solution in developing most aspects of the game which is the reason most people would rather use it and nothing else. i believe that an integrated OS solution which will behave alot like directx is the only way to go in the long run if linux want to stay in the classical pc market.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nighty wrote:
Mo6eB wrote:
What is the problem with SDL + OpenGL? They work perfectly well together.
the porting proccess just isnt worth their time. even if vista wont hurt opengl performance you can see today that on windows xp there are many more titles which support direct3d alone since directx9 came out. directx gives a complete integrated solution in developing most aspects of the game which is the reason most people would rather use it and nothing else. i believe that an integrated OS solution which will behave alot like directx is the only way to go in the long run if linux want to stay in the classical pc market.

Well, with OpenGL + SDL you only have to worry about two API's, ofcourse that isn't ideal, but it's not like you have dozens of API's to care about in Linuxland, you already can have it fairly intergrated.
Were is my argument failing?
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Q-collective wrote:
Well, with OpenGL + SDL you only have to worry about two API's, ofcourse that isn't ideal, but it's not like you have dozens of API's to care about in Linuxland, you already can have it fairly intergrated.
Were is my argument failing?


1. SDL is less capable than DirectX: no 3D Sound, no modern Gamepad support, nothing like FX, etc. If you want to know more --- go to DirectX homepage and read about its features.

DirectX != SDL + OpenGL

2. If you still think that above sentence is not true: try to port some DirectX game to Linux, using SDL+OpenGL. We'll see you several months later.

P.S.
OpenML is an industrial standard. Game developers can be convinced to use it because it will be supported (is going to be) across different hardware platforms. SDL can't play such role.
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