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marcus0263
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:50 pm    Post subject: Advantage's of Gentoo vs Solaris 10 on a Sparc? Reply with quote

Ok here's the deal:

I've got an Ultra 60 with 2x450's and 512 Ram. I'm getting another Sparc shortly for my Solaris needs, so I'm just generally curious about the advantage of running Linux on Sparc.

I currently run Gentoo on 2 desktops and my laptop, so I'm curious if anyone's got a quick summary of the advantages.

Edit: Cause, fat finger
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herbkohl
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience it doesn't really matter which OS people with ridiculous sigs like
Quote:
100% Gentoo Box
Stage 1 build
Koolance Liquid Cooled Case
Intel D875PBZ MB
P-4 3.0 GHZ
4 Gig PQI Dual Channel RAM
Nvidia Gforce 6800 Ultra AGP 256M
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Cheetah 73 Gig Ultra 160 10k rpm

use.
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marcus0263
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

herbkohl wrote:
In my experience it doesn't really matter which OS people with ridiculous sigs like
Quote:
100% Gentoo Box
Stage 1 build
Koolance Liquid Cooled Case
Intel D875PBZ MB
P-4 3.0 GHZ
4 Gig PQI Dual Channel RAM
Nvidia Gforce 6800 Ultra AGP 256M
Adaptec 29160N
Cheetah 37 Gig Ultra 160 15k rpm
Cheetah 73 Gig Ultra 160 10k rpm

use.


Actually it makes it easier when posting for support issues.

Now if you don't have anything constructive to post, go away.
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Felly
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only 'real' advantage that I see is portage. It's a bit easier to use then Solaris packages (at least to finetune them) and it's for sure a lot easier to write ebuilds, albeit Solaris packages are more powerfull (I figure you already know this). Hardware support is far easier on Solaris too IMO.

KDE runs too slowly on my lowly Gentoo sparc (Ultra 10 8) ) to be of any use so it's acting as a file server now.

The Gentoo concept of compile-as-much-as-you-can is great but on some of these older but _splendid_ machines it can be a burden.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felly wrote:
The only 'real' advantage that I see is portage. It's a bit easier to use then Solaris packages (at least to finetune them) and it's for sure a lot easier to write ebuilds, albeit Solaris packages are more powerfull (I figure you already know this). Hardware support is far easier on Solaris too IMO.

KDE runs too slowly on my lowly Gentoo sparc (Ultra 10 8) ) to be of any use so it's acting as a file server now.

The Gentoo concept of compile-as-much-as-you-can is great but on some of these older but _splendid_ machines it can be a burden.

Thanks for the opinion, this is exactly what I was looking for. Basicly I'm exploring what advantage it would be to put Linux on Sparc, I'll more than likely stick with Solaris with my Sparc's.

And you're right Sun does make some splended machines, keep an eye on Craigslist and some pop up from time to time dirt cheap :!: I saw a 420R with 4x400's and 2 Gig Ram go for $150, I was broke at the time and it killed me to see that one.

Anyway thanks for your help :!:
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well one advantage in using Linux over Solaris, the text terminal is not an abyssmal black on white with incredibly large fonts. Of course that is a minor reason. I suppose also that I am more comfortable with iptables commands as opposed to ipfilter but that is just a matter of preference.
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herbkohl
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

marcus0263 wrote:
herbkohl wrote:
In my experience it doesn't really matter which OS people with ridiculous sigs like
Quote:
100% Gentoo Box
Stage 1 build
Koolance Liquid Cooled Case
Intel D875PBZ MB
P-4 3.0 GHZ
4 Gig PQI Dual Channel RAM
Nvidia Gforce 6800 Ultra AGP 256M
Adaptec 29160N
Cheetah 37 Gig Ultra 160 15k rpm
Cheetah 73 Gig Ultra 160 10k rpm

use.


Actually it makes it easier when posting for support issues.

Now if you don't have anything constructive to post, go away.

Oooooooh, thank god I know you are one of the uninformed who still uses Stage 1, that you have a 100% Gentoo box and Koolance Liquid Cooled Case! I don't know how I'd support you otherwise!!

And the brand of your RAM and hard drives! The amount of RAM on your video card! It's just soooo wonderful!
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marcus0263
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drunkula wrote:
Well one advantage in using Linux over Solaris, the text terminal is not an abyssmal black on white with incredibly large fonts. Of course that is a minor reason. I suppose also that I am more comfortable with iptables commands as opposed to ipfilter but that is just a matter of preference.


Thanks, I'll be using it mostly remotely so that isn't the issue. I know what you mean about black on white...... Most of all though I'm looking at performance of Sparc's with Linux. I may dink around with it and see what it does.

Thanks again
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

herbkohl wrote:

Oooooooh, thank god I know you are one of the uninformed who still uses Stage 1, that you have a 100% Gentoo box and Koolance Liquid Cooled Case! I don't know how I'd support you otherwise!!

And the brand of your RAM and hard drives! The amount of RAM on your video card! It's just soooo wonderful!


Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought of as a fool rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Now just go away and stop being flame bait.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Performance is quite resonable and comparable with with pure Solaris equivalents. YMMV since I haven't used a sparc purely as a desktop machine (yet). But for most server work Linux/Sparc gets the job done.

Ofcourse, if you are involved in a field that requires maximum performance I would go with Solaris since most of that niche stuff is compiled with the Sun toolchain, wich can give huge rewards in performance.

Offcourse, benchmarking is the key here. Weakest link and all :)
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

marcus0263 wrote:
herbkohl wrote:

Oooooooh, thank god I know you are one of the uninformed who still uses Stage 1, that you have a 100% Gentoo box and Koolance Liquid Cooled Case! I don't know how I'd support you otherwise!!

And the brand of your RAM and hard drives! The amount of RAM on your video card! It's just soooo wonderful!


Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought of as a fool rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Now just go away and stop being flame bait.
Nope. Your sig is extremely ridiculous, and I'm bored enough to keep pointing it out. There is no reason we have to know all that to support you, and there's no reason those 10 lines cannot be reduced to 2.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felly wrote:
Performance is quite resonable and comparable with with pure Solaris equivalents. YMMV since I haven't used a sparc purely as a desktop machine (yet). But for most server work Linux/Sparc gets the job done.

Ofcourse, if you are involved in a field that requires maximum performance I would go with Solaris since most of that niche stuff is compiled with the Sun toolchain, wich can give huge rewards in performance.

Offcourse, benchmarking is the key here. Weakest link and all :)

Thanks, yeah I really prefer Linux as a desktop much more advantages there. It's hard to beat Sun when it comes to the enterprise server though. I'm seeing some killer deals on Sparc's from bankrupt companies show up and I just cann't help myself, ya know!

Anyway thanks again for your insight, I've alway's wondered about Linux on Sparc and wanted to get some input from people who have made a decent comparison.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me, Solaris is a pain to deal with. It's very hard to find apps that really do compile correctly in Solaris without explicit mention of "supporting Solaris" bit. The only plus thing that Solaris has is just Java. SPARC Linux doesn't have any decent Java except for Blackdown, which is buggy and severely out of date (v1.4.1 is the latest one). Another thing is, as Felly mentioned, hardware support. But as long as you don't use some esoteric hardwares (like adding more ISA/PCI card, etc), you should be fine. Check out the UltraLinux's FAQ.

Other than that, Linux is by far better than Solaris. Again, as Felly mentioned, portage rocks. Hands down. As far as the speed goes, I feel Linux SPARC is faster and snappier. I use kernel 2.6.9 there. Also, Linux is far prettier than Solaris. Solaris' Gnome is UGLY. :shock:

HTH
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

robbyjo wrote:
To me, Solaris is a pain to deal with. It's very hard to find apps that really do compile correctly in Solaris without explicit mention of "supporting Solaris" bit. The only plus thing that Solaris has is just Java. SPARC Linux doesn't have any decent Java except for Blackdown, which is buggy and severely out of date (v1.4.1 is the latest one). Another thing is, as Felly mentioned, hardware support. But as long as you don't use some esoteric hardwares (like adding more ISA/PCI card, etc), you should be fine. Check out the UltraLinux's FAQ.

Other than that, Linux is by far better than Solaris. Again, as Felly mentioned, portage rocks. Hands down. As far as the speed goes, I feel Linux SPARC is faster and snappier. I use kernel 2.6.9 there. Also, Linux is far prettier than Solaris. Solaris' Gnome is UGLY. :shock:

HTH

I have to agree when it comes down to the desktop world and JDS I'm not impressed with. Personally I use Fluxbox for my Linux desktop, I really don't like gnome or kde that much, but it does have it's place. Only positive I have to say about Sun going with a gnome base is it's finally getting away from Motif. CDE was good in it's day, but belch....

Sun though does have it's place though, when it comes to multi CPU's and the threads..... I'm also wanting to mess around with DTRACE and play with it a bit.

Thanks for your input
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

marcus0263 wrote:
Sun though does have it's place though, when it comes to multi CPU's and the threads..... I'm also wanting to mess around with DTRACE and play with it a bit.


Hmm... I thought that Linux SPARC has a decent SMP support and NPTL works really well here. So multi-CPU and multi-threads should be a cinch too.

marcus0263 wrote:
Thanks for your input

No problem. ;)
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have found in my limited experience that Solaris is incredibly slower than any linux distro (out of the box) that I have tried --- on x86 arch...

I dont have a sparc based comp though, so Solaris might be snappier on its home field. (there is a RDI britelite IPX portable on its way to my house as we speek though, things are going to get intense....)

Once again, speaking from limited experience:

the time i tried Solaris on my pentium III, i was horribly unimpressed. I rather enjoyed CDE, but didn't much carefor the gnome like desktop on the java desktop system.

how about a dual booting machine? that is how I would solve the issue, now the problem then becomes... which bootloader to use.

should linux control it (grub or lilo) or is the Solaris bootloader better?

how about portage on solaris? seems like the compromise for the elite...



oh and about the 'i hate your sig' guy: if you go on car forums, people list their cars and their mods, if you go on r/c car forum people list their r/c's and mods.....

although it anoys me when people refer to mods or parts with abbreviated names, there is nothing wrong with pride in what you've got. and frankly, if i ever saw something odd in a sig, i would PM that person immedietly and ask 'what is it and where can i get one.' so in that sense prideful info in sigs is quite fun.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shickapooka800 wrote:
i have found in my limited experience that Solaris is incredibly slower than any linux distro (out of the box) that I have tried --- on x86 arch...

I dont have a sparc based comp though, so Solaris might be snappier on its home field.

<snip>

oh and about the 'i hate your sig' guy: if you go on car forums, people list their cars and their mods, if you go on r/c car forum people list their r/c's and mods.....

<snip>


Yeah Solaris on x86 pretty much blows, except for the new AMD 64 bit. Sun pretty much treated x86 Solaris as the Bastard Step child up untill Solaris 7. It's much better now, but I prefer Linux on x86 in the 32 bit realm. The real advantage to Sun is the multi processors, 64 bit and threads, you really can't get better. Using Sun as a desktop, well for very high end graphics and CAD it works great. But where Sun comes in to it's power is most definatly in the server realm. Now I don't want to start any kind of flames or Sun vs Linux yadda yadda yadda, but I pretty much like taking a realistic objective view. Small servers and desktop Linux in my book totally rocks, but once you get into the big iron you're in Sun's realm.

What I can't wait for is Sun to release it's 128 bit OS with ZFS file system, self healing and virtually unlimited memory and disk mapping WOW!. That and I do want to play around with DSCAN, Sun claims that Solaris 10 is the most advanced OS and I'm pretty much in agreement.

But let's get back to the subject, Linux on Sparc. I really am intersested in the performance for desktop use, with a single CPU or dual CPU workstation I'm wondering how the performance mesures up. Sparc workstations have excellent hardware, other than Ultra 5's and 10's (sorry, I just don't like them). I'm seeing some killer prices around for Ultra 60's and I'm thinking of grabbing another one for a Linux desktop.

As for "Mr. I don't like your sig", there are idiots all over the net who love to start flames, I just choose to ignore them. Yeah I put in the "Koolance and 100% Gentoo" in for bragging rights, as for the rest of it, honestly it makes things much easier when posting for help. Let's be real here, the combonation of hardware etc. has a major factor, especially with a source based OS. Basicly the Moron just needs to get a life.

Cheers
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well on my spare box for desktop use Linux performs 'better' than Solaris. But then again that box is running Fluxbox for a WM when in X and of course Gentoo only loads what I want. I never cared much for CDE. And Solaris by default loads the extra services which I'd never need.

My box is a Ultra 2 Enterprise, 384Megs of RAM (much better than the out-of-box 128Megs), 2 procs (300Mhz UltraII), and a Creator3D card to replace the stock cgsix [yuck!]. All things given I can't do a direct 1-1 comparison as far as performance. The box is reasonably quick despite being somewhat dated...

If I ever get around to getting another NIC or a quad-port NIC I will set that box up as my firewall/router to replace an aging P3-500 box.

I know what you mean about some of the prices out there for Sparc hardware. Very tempting!
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drunkula wrote:
Well on my spare box for desktop use Linux performs 'better' than Solaris. But then again that box is running Fluxbox for a WM when in X and of course Gentoo only loads what I want. I never cared much for CDE. And Solaris by default loads the extra services which I'd never need.

My box is a Ultra 2 Enterprise, 384Megs of RAM (much better than the out-of-box 128Megs), 2 procs (300Mhz UltraII), and a Creator3D card to replace the stock cgsix [yuck!]. All things given I can't do a direct 1-1 comparison as far as performance. The box is reasonably quick despite being somewhat dated...

If I ever get around to getting another NIC or a quad-port NIC I will set that box up as my firewall/router to replace an aging P3-500 box.

I know what you mean about some of the prices out there for Sparc hardware. Very tempting!


Yeah I use Fluxbox myself and I'm loving it, Motif just out and out blows. Like I stated earlier in it's day it was the best but they really have done nothing with CDE it in years! Yeah when I pick up another Sun server I think I will play with Gentoo on Sparc. I'm trying to see if I can get at least an E250 or 220R on up. I'll use that for my Database server and see how Gentoo Sparc performs on my Ultra 60.

Look around and you can really get the older Sun's for dirt cheap, and I mean dirt cheap. I picked up an Ultra 60 with dual 450's for under $200, and I paid to much. I'm seeing E250's for around $200 and even saw a E3000 w/ 4.5 Gig RAM, 6x 400 CPU's and 180 Gig of disk space in excellent condition go for $400. My God that sold for over $50k a few years ago! I also picked up a still in the box never been used Sun PC penquin card for $0.99. I usually keep a good eye on Ebay and Craigslist, not bad deals at all. For a Firewall with multipule port NIC's keep an eye out for the Netra's, I used to use a T1 with Gauntlet and it worked great as a Firewall. Redundant power supply and just config them with a serial connection. No need for a monitor, keyboard/mouse and it just sits there and runs for ever.

Anyway Sun does make great hardware that runs forever, with all the companies going bust theres allot of this hardware going around.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've found linux - solaris performance on sparc to be directly related to the "beef" content of the hardware.

On my ultra1, 167mhz, 128mb of ram, running postfix under gentoo outperformed solaris8/9 by a factor of about 400%
On my ultra5, 260mhz,196mb ram, postfix was about the same speed on both.
However, on my SB1000 750mhz 2gbram, solaris runs postfix about 20% faster.

On the U1, trying to run X under solaris was just outright painful. Under linux (fluxbox) things were slow but tolerable.
On the U5, the real bottleneck has been the hard drives, but ignoring that gentoo and solaris9/10 seem to run about the same speed in terms of gui performance (both sit there waiting forever anytime something needs to hit swap...)
On the SB1000 however, solaris is -very- responsive in the GUI and the percieved speed (how fast things pop up) seems to be almost as fast as my AMD64 box (under gentoo or doze). Gentoo runs mediocore on the SB1000, unsure if its the limited support for US3/VIS or some other factor .. (lack of good drivers for my Creator3d could easily be part of it..)

Just my 2 cents, YMMV.
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