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ciaranm
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eradicator wrote:
Quote:
It is ridiculous to assume Gentoo developers are going to want to deal with bugs that could potentially be a product of third party binary packages.

I agree entirely with Ciaran and will also not handle any such bugs. I think this is a very reasonable position.


It is easily verifable that something IS or ISN'T related to the binary package. Just compile from source. It might be possible to indicate in emerge --info that the user is using genux (so gentoo devs can identify it in bugzilla and ask the user to try compilation from source first) and genux has its own bugzilla.

Not at all. We get a bug with foo. foo deps upon bar. bar deps upon baz. baz was installed from a dodgy binary that breaks it under certain circumstances which show up in a function called via bar from a function called via foo. So nothing short of a -e world twice will fix it. This is entirely possible with libraries.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

first off no personal offence intended.

eradicator, unless you provide a writen legal document stateing that this is your opnion and not a payed for advertisement sence you are being payed by them, i do not hold your posts on this matter in the way your title should indicate. this is because money talks louder then anything else, i just want to be sure that it is you and not the money that is talking.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:57 pm    Post subject: About Eradicator, and employment Reply with quote

I'm a little bit confused why/how people are now questioning the intentions of Eradicator. Clearly there CAN be a conflict of interest, but at a certain point you have to realize that a person who put as much time/effort and resources into Gentoo for the last few years is not likely to betray that easily. We're small, and we're not offering him enough to betray his principles (and given I've known him for years, I can't imagine him EVER betraying his principles no matter what). His statements (and mine, and everyone else's) will be easily verified soon enough. I can understand people being skeptical about what I say. That's fair, given that you don't know me, and I haven't proved anything yet. However, I would think Eradicator has more than earned everyone's benefit of the doubt on here. If you need evidence of why, just look at the last Gentoo Weekly Newsletter last year, and look at the closed bug rankings.
You don't have to agree with him (or me or anyone), and bringing up counter arguments is cool and part of what makes these forums great. That said, I would hope we don't need signed affidavits here in order to even consider what he has to say, especially given how much he has given to Gentoo.
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ciaranm
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:05 pm    Post subject: Re: About Eradicator, and employment Reply with quote

casaburi wrote:
If you need evidence of why, just look at the last Gentoo Weekly Newsletter last year, and look at the closed bug rankings.

Uh, not to agree or disagree with any of your other points here, but don't misinterpret those stats... Certain bugs take a heck of a lot longer to fix than others, and going by pure numbers will just give you a list of a) people who do bug wrangling, b) people who do 'easy' bugs (keywording, typically) and c) people who get a lot of dupes.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:12 pm    Post subject: Re: About Eradicator, and employment Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
casaburi wrote:
If you need evidence of why, just look at the last Gentoo Weekly Newsletter last year, and look at the closed bug rankings.

Uh, not to agree or disagree with any of your other points here, but don't misinterpret those stats... Certain bugs take a heck of a lot longer to fix than others, and going by pure numbers will just give you a list of a) people who do bug wrangling, b) people who do 'easy' bugs (keywording, typically) and c) people who get a lot of dupes.


Of course you're correct on that the stats can lie (there are 3 kinds of lies...). I don't mean to imply he's better than any of the other developers or anything else. I do mean to imply that he has given a lot. I'd say the same of any developer, though given he's a good friend of mine, I'm probably a bit more defensive when it comes to him.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:37 pm    Post subject: Re: About Eradicator, and employment Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
casaburi wrote:
If you need evidence of why, just look at the last Gentoo Weekly Newsletter last year, and look at the closed bug rankings.

Uh, not to agree or disagree with any of your other points here, but don't misinterpret those stats... Certain bugs take a heck of a lot longer to fix than others, and going by pure numbers will just give you a list of a) people who do bug wrangling, b) people who do 'easy' bugs (keywording, typically) and c) people who get a lot of dupes.


There could be a dramatic increase in bugs while using these binary packages and it shouldn't be the responsibility of the Gentoo devs to fix them. It is a waste of their time and energy. They already have enough on their plate without 3rd party binaries.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:42 am    Post subject: Re: FUD Reply with quote

eradicator wrote:
Flammie wrote:
One thing I have missed, could you please answer to the concerns, presented by various devs, that, what happens if you screw something up? The potential result I am seeing is that you've already got the money from customers and gentoo bugzilla, gentoo fora and gentoo irc channel users will have to solve your bugs for free, it can't be very easily guaranteed that this won't happen, can it?


1) GenUX has not collected money yet. It is still in a closed beta.


Yes, I, like many others presenting possible scenarios here, are thinking also in the future. I have strong reasons to believe that {they,you} will collect the money, isn't that so?

Quote:
2) If the bugs exist in Gentoo (not just GenUX),- -


My apologies, I should've been more explicit on the issue. I was talking about the potential bugs that are caused by GenUX and not by Gentoo. I thought this was implicitly clear by the fact that I quoted GenUX developer and used word 'You' as causer of the problems, but I can understand if my English is not so easy to understand as I am not a native speaker.

Quote:
Fix it with the upstream developers to have the biggest impact on the opensource community.


Can I take this as a Gentoo developer's given permission to send {Gaim,mozilla,enlightenment} bugs upstream now? Because that would be so cool.
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ciaranm
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:48 am    Post subject: Re: FUD Reply with quote

Flammie wrote:
Quote:
Fix it with the upstream developers to have the biggest impact on the opensource community.

Can I take this as a Gentoo developer's given permission to send {Gaim,mozilla,enlightenment} bugs upstream now? Because that would be so cool.

Gaim developers don't accept bugs from Gentoo users. You can thank the ricer crowd for that.
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Flammie
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:54 am    Post subject: Re: FUD Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
Flammie wrote:
Can I take this as a Gentoo developer's given permission to send {Gaim,mozilla,enlightenment} bugs upstream now? Because that would be so cool.

Gaim developers don't accept bugs from Gentoo users. You can thank the ricer crowd for that.


Yes, I'm aware of that, and same applies to certain extent for some mozilla developers and AFAIK even the enlightenment dev, which is the point I was trying to make actually :-)
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:47 am    Post subject: Re: FUD Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
Flammie wrote:
Quote:
Fix it with the upstream developers to have the biggest impact on the opensource community.

Can I take this as a Gentoo developer's given permission to send {Gaim,mozilla,enlightenment} bugs upstream now? Because that would be so cool.

Gaim developers don't accept bugs from Gentoo users. You can thank the ricer crowd for that.


What did the ricers do this time?:D
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casaburi
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:52 am    Post subject: Binary package issues Reply with quote

FYI to all concerned about GenUX. We're (currently) building all packages against the 2004.3 Gentoo profile. (we later intend to support configurations for more recent profiles when they exist) End users of our service are expected to have their system match our development environment, and their USE flags are expected to match the USE flags they request that the binaries be built with, and obviously they are expected to match the arch settings. (in our current incarnation of our backend we do not yet support CFLAGS, though we intend with a future revision support a limited subset of CFLAGS) If end users don't do that, just as with normal Gentoo users, they should not expect anyone anywhere to support them.

We are also working on publishing the specific dependencies that each of our binaries are compiled against. Obviously since we have to build a large number of copies of each binary, the dependency list will be the superset of all that we build. (so you will see many dependencies that are conditional in each list)

Building a system that adds significant problems is obviously in no ones interest; neither ours, the Gentoo dev's, nor anyone else I could care about in this context.
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eradicator
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: FUD Reply with quote

Flammie wrote:

Quote:
2) If the bugs exist in Gentoo (not just GenUX),- -


My apologies, I should've been more explicit on the issue. I was talking about the potential bugs that are caused by GenUX and not by Gentoo. I thought this was implicitly clear by the fact that I quoted GenUX developer and used word 'You' as causer of the problems, but I can understand if my English is not so easy to understand as I am not a native speaker.


Oh, well in that case, definitely the correct place would be to file bugs in teh genux bugzilla.

Quote:

Can I take this as a Gentoo developer's given permission to send {Gaim,mozilla,enlightenment} bugs upstream now? Because that would be so cool.

As long as the upstream devs accept bugs from gentoo users, there's no reason not to. If it is a heavily modified package (xorg-x11, toolchain stuff, etc), however, you should definitely go through Gentoo first, but there's no reason to rely on Gentoo devs exclusively for things like MythTV which has an excellent development and user community. Gaim, mplayer, and others will not deal with gentoo specific bugs for their own political reasons... so it really varies on a case by case basis...
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eradicator
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:53 pm    Post subject: Re: About Eradicator, and employment Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
casaburi wrote:
If you need evidence of why, just look at the last Gentoo Weekly Newsletter last year, and look at the closed bug rankings.

Uh, not to agree or disagree with any of your other points here, but don't misinterpret those stats... Certain bugs take a heck of a lot longer to fix than others, and going by pure numbers will just give you a list of a) people who do bug wrangling, b) people who do 'easy' bugs (keywording, typically) and c) people who get a lot of dupes.


Actually, that count doesn't count dupes, but that's besides the point. I agree that the bug stats don't really count for much. They're not a good measure of how much development an individual does for the project. Other people have done things like cvs commit counts, etc, which I put equally little stock in for the same reasons Ciaran has mentioned above. In fact, my count has gone down a lot over the past months as I've focused more on toolchain/multilib/crosscompile issues which don't get reported much by users (since it's not in heavy use yet). So I do agree with Ciaran here (I think that makes two) in that those stats are possibly interesting trivia at best...

But I think his point remains that I have given a lot to this community, and in no way have I "sold out." I do not understand some of the reactions people have given in this thread. Some of you seem to think working for money means I've sold out. Well as much as I wish communism worked, it doesn't. I didn't see food baskets coming in from the Gentoo user community to support me, so I needed to get a job to pay my food and board. It's either that or I live on the street... and I can't do much development on the street...
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eradicator
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: About Eradicator, and employment Reply with quote

gentoo_lan wrote:

There could be a dramatic increase in bugs while using these binary packages and it shouldn't be the responsibility of the Gentoo devs to fix them. It is a waste of their time and energy. They already have enough on their plate without 3rd party binaries.


Again, if the bug is GenUX related, then it should be dealt with by GenUX. If GenUX happened to REVEAL a bug in Gentoo, then why shouldn't gentoo devs fix them? Even if I wasn't working with the GenUX project, I'd want my packages to work right regardless of who finds the bug.
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ian!
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@eradicator: Please use the edit button rather then creating a new post for every quote. Thanks.

@everybody: Please calm down a bit.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcspiff wrote:
avenj wrote:
eradicator wrote:
ciaranm wrote:

I *know* that there're some nasty portage binary package bugs. Hence, the packages these people distribute will be broken. See rac's explanation.


All the better that we've got someone pumping money into the community to drive incentive to fix these problems.


Pumping money into the community? Where is the money going that benefits the community precisely?


So far, with two rsync servers.


We have had many dozens of rsync servers for years. Two rsync servers is not all that noteworthy.
Quote:



Remeber everyone, the GPL allows you to sell other people's work. Dont like it, dont use the GPL.


Nobody said anything about that being an issue, merely that with the possible exception of eradicator we're not going to handle bugs from GenUX users
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GenUX has no way to lock us into using their servicies -> we won't be forced to pay them any money -> they are adding something without taking away anything -> can't be bad. As for the bugs issue I don't see the point, GenUX is offering a service and will provide support for it. If it doesn't it dies. If support questions go to the wrong people I'm sure gentoo devs and GenUX can think of a way to re-route bug reports, like using the output of emerge --info.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/philosophy.xml

Quote:
It's important that our tools support binary packages, because binary packages are widely used and widely in demand in the Linux community. If our tools don't support binary packages, then we can't claim that our tools are designed to allow a user to do anything he or she might want to do. If we purposely choose to exclude binary support, then we are attempting to interfere with how users might choose to approach particular problems, by instead imposing our own will or view of how they should approach a problem. And if we do not build binary packages, then we are not taking any steps to ensure that our tools actually work well with binary packages, nor are we taking steps to ensure that others can build binary packages, nor are we able to *demonstrate* that our tools work well with binary packages. Besides these philosophical reasons, there are many practical reasons to create binary packages.


There obviously will be problems with packages. That doesn't mean a package system, even one you have to pay for, is evil - if the tools are bad for packages then they must be fixed. Gentoo was born to be a set of tools better than any other.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: FUD Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
Flammie wrote:
Quote:
Fix it with the upstream developers to have the biggest impact on the opensource community.

Can I take this as a Gentoo developer's given permission to send {Gaim,mozilla,enlightenment} bugs upstream now? Because that would be so cool.

Gaim developers don't accept bugs from Gentoo users. You can thank the ricer crowd for that.


Wrong. That struck me as untrue, so I asked the lead GAIM developer. He said, and I quote, "No, it's not true."
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:14 pm    Post subject: Re: FUD Reply with quote

uman wrote:
ciaranm wrote:
Gaim developers don't accept bugs from Gentoo users. You can thank the ricer crowd for that.

Wrong. That struck me as untrue, so I asked the lead GAIM developer. He said, and I quote, "No, it's not true."

Well, if you want a more accurate version... They accept the bugs, and then post huge tirades of abuse about Gentoo and Gentoo users and then tell you to get lost.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to the developer I spoke with,
Quote:
Well, we encourage people to report the bug to Gentoo which then sorts things out and reports them upstream to us.
.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

avenj wrote:

We have had many dozens of rsync servers for years. Two rsync servers is not all that noteworthy.


Well that was what was requested by infra because Lance said they were in need of rsync servers.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Dispell things... Reply with quote

Firt of all, thanks for the contributions your company has made. Regardless of anything else, those cannot be dismissed.


Gen-UX wrote:
The $120 is if you were to subscribe to our service year round, you can at ANYTIME leave our service and only pay $10 per month that you used. If this is too expensive for you then you can always make some suggestions on pricing and we will listen to you, you can always suggest things to us on our forum under suggestions.
I was tempted to offer a suggestion, but it seemed rather obvious. You'll (the company) probably come up with it on your own if you haven't already.

Gen-UX wrote:
About the trade seceret issue. The Gentoo Foundation members and some Gentoo Developers will have complete access to our internal workings of our system. If you don't trust anybody then I'm sorry. If you can trust the Gentoo Trustees and some Gentoo Developers then you can trust us because they will clearly say that we are not doing anything "GREY", illegal, immoral, etc in our process.

You must understand that if we gave everyone the complete understanding of how we do things then what was the point in going through the trouble of trying to generate resources for the Gentoo community?
While not an exact paralell, this smells a lot like claims of super-good-uber security, but the means must be kept secret.

I understand you are "protecting" what you perceive to be your revenue stream, but if you've thought of it, someone else can too. The question is if anyone else is willing to provide the service. Regardless of how it is done, you'll have to compete on service, not what is done in the trenches.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Dispell things... Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
I understand you are "protecting" what you perceive to be your revenue stream, but if you've thought of it, someone else can too. The question is if anyone else is willing to provide the service. Regardless of how it is done, you'll have to compete on service, not what is done in the trenches.

Indeed. If anyone who has a genuine interest in setting up an open, free competing service asks nicely, I'll tell them how to do this properly in such a way that will end up with as little as possible in the way of brokenness.

Of course, I'll also tell people not to actually use it, and I wouldn't accept bugs from people who did.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Dispell things... Reply with quote

ciaranm wrote:
Of course, I'll also tell people not to actually use it, and I wouldn't accept bugs from people who did.
:lol:
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