Confused about window managers, KDE, X11,etc.

[bleakcabal]

Im new to Linux.

So far Iv'e seen that there are window managers and maybe other levels of window managers that interface with X11 ( or XFree, or X, or are these all the same thing )

From reading pages of

blackbox, window maker, icewm, kde, gnome, fluxbox, sawfish, and many others Iv'e gathered that some of these can be run within KDE and Gnome and that KDE and Gnome can run without them... And that some of these can be run without running KDE or Gnome.

If KDE can run with or without them, and they can run with or without KDE what's KDE do that they don`t or don`t do ?

I gather you can`t run Gnome in Sawfish but you can run Sawfish in Gnome ???

Also that you can't run window maker in say fluxbox for exemple...



So would that mean that KDE and Gnome arent window managers ? But what are they ? And what do they do ? Iv'e run KDE for some time on Red Hat... And it's like windows....

Could someone please un-confuse things for me ?

Pretty please

[thegarbageman]

[schutten]

Indeed this is all confusing. I'll try to simplify things:

Basically there are three levels when it comes to a unix windowing system:

- First there is the basic system X/XFree/X11. This is all the same. X is the name of the windowing system used (short for X Window Sytem); 11 is the current version number; XFree is the free implementation that is commonly used in combination with Linux.

- Second there is a window manager (wm). X by itself is not very usefull (and certainly not very pretty). To draw window borders, title bars, etc a window manager is used, like sawfish/metacity/twm/icewm/kwm. There are a lot of choices here... Usually the choice of wm is influenced by the next (the desktop environment).

- Third there is a desktop environment. This usually draws/organizes the desktop & some menus (like menus similar to the windows task bar/start menu) and provides for some integration of the applications. This is not really required, but certainly usefull. For beginners with linux I would recommend kde or gnome as a desktop environment (I would certainly use one of those if you have used MS Windows before, since they work pretty similar). The choice is yours; I would install both and try them... KDE installs its own window manager (kwm), so you won't have to worry about that. Gnome needs a separate window manager (I think currently gentoo will install metacity by default, but sawfish is also popular as a window manager for gnome).

Later one can install and try other window managers/desktop environments.

Oh, BTW Welcome to Linux, you'll love all the choices you have. Although this may sometimes seem confusing, it is all part of the freedom that Linux brings...

[IWBCMAN]

no problem-being new and confused is ordinary...


Others can give a more detailed answer, but heres something small to unravel the layers of confusion.

Firstly-when you interact with Xwindows in linux you interact with it through a) Windowmanagers and/or b) Desktop Enviroments

Windowmanagers control the placement,style,color-in short the atrributes of windows and allow for their manipulation.
Examples:
blackbox,fluxbox,openbox,waimea,enlightement, WindowMaker, rox, fvwm, icewm, tcwm, metacity,sawfish,kwm etc.

Desktop Environments usually are coupled with certain windowmangers(gnome with metacity/sawfish and kde with kwm). when one installs a Desktop Environment a windowmanager will be install with it. Desktop Enviroments add functionality to and above that of windowmanagers. They include a repetoire of smaller programs(kate,gedit,ark,file-roller etc.) and provide for a level of unification in terms of style and functionality accross these programs.

If one uses simply a windowmanager one must select and configure the tools which one needs to compliment it. A windowmanager(wm) used alone is almost always faster than using a desktop environment. In a desktop environment(de(desktopmanager=desktop environment(for all practical purposes,with exceptions)) one can usually manipulate all aspect of the system through graphical configuration tools- with a wm one usually has small hidden txt files located in hidden directories which hold the configrations settings-very powerfull, but sometimes bewildering in terms of complexity. de's provide for integration-like cut and paste between applications, -system-wide fonts, widgets, sounds, key combinations in short themes-in kde and gnome there is a great deal of intgeration-gnome apps work fluidly under gnome and same is true for kde. One can run kde and gnome application using any windowmanager-but they are not integrated, and usually not supported, or not adequately supported. One can also run kde apps in gnome or vice-versa. E17 (the folllow up to enlightenment 16.5) will probably be a hybrid wm/de. GNUstep/WindowMaker is a hybrid wm/de. Non-de apps like Openoffice and Mozilla work fine in both wm's and de's-mozilla uses the gtk+ libraries which gnome/gnome2 uses...

[bleakcabal]

Thanks alot that clears a lot of things. Guess I'll have to try them out ! Maybe not all of them, but alot of them.

[fghellar]

You can also check these two documents:

X Window System Architecture Overview HOWTO

[David_Escott]

One thing not mentioned in this thread is what to do if you DONT want a desktop environment. Perhaps you want to minimize bloat or have more control over your system (if speed is your concern the best bet is to ask, most of environments are fairly snappy on reasonably modern hardware so there is probably something else going on).

If you put -gnome and -kde in your use variables then applications will be built that do not link to the additional features that a desktop environment provides. For example xmms would not build support for a gnome/kde applet and would not know about these desktop environments and the organizational features they provide. Also these applications would not use session management features (used to save state between logout login etc) although you can get most of this back by modifying your .xinitrc to your liking.

If on the other hand your goal is to totally eliminate the bloat of the a desktop environment you would need to also disable the toolkits they use by putting in thinks like "-gtk -gtk2 -qt -qtmt"... (don't just delete these from make.profile/make.defaults since this file is modified by updgrading portage). The problem with this is that you would make it impossible to use those applications that require a particular toolkit. (Sometimes this can be a desired behavior for instance if you want a gnome only shop so to speak you can put in "-qt -kde -arts -qtmt").