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peaceful
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:47 pm    Post subject: Gentoo MacOS vs Fink Reply with quote

I recently switched from an x86 w/gentoo as my main machine to a PowerMac running Panther. I tried installing Gentoo MacOS to get the open-source goodness that I'm used to, but nothing seemed to compile, so I quickly switched to Fink since I'm working in a production environment and have to get stuff done (usually yesterday).

Anyway, I would like to go back to Gentoo MacOS as soon as I can. I just have a couple of questions I'm hoping someone can answer:

1) Do Fink and Gentoo MacOS play nicely together, or do they stomp on eachother's toes?

2) Does Gentoo MacOS install everything in it's own subdirectory like fink (i.e. /sw/)? If not, can it be made to do so?

Any other helpful comments on ways to make the transition smooth would be appreciated.
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BennyP
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1) Not too sure on this one but i think the only clash is in the PATH environment variable.. dont trust me on this one
2) Nope, gentoo installs to / but collision protection helps keep system files safe
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peaceful
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BennyP wrote:

2) Nope, gentoo installs to / but collision protection helps keep system files safe


It may keep the system safe from being overwritten, but it causes all sorts of pain when you are trying to install something that happens to have the same name/path as a MacOSX component. I mentioned this in #gentoo-osx today, one suggestion was to use chroot. The other was a vague comment about a $ROOT variable for portage, but people disagreed as to whether that would work.

Does anyone else think that gentoo-macos ought to have the option to install in /gentoo or /g2 or something other than / ???
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, i think so. GentooMacOSX should have a separate directory like fink, in order to keep MacOS and Gentoo Portage separates.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I third that opinion too. While I like the idea that gentoo is trying to be more integrated with mac os x, it would seem that they could avoid all the collision problems altogether if they just did what fink did with their package. Or, if some people want it that way, at least give the others an option in the install process to use a folder as root. How hard could it be to change the root if fink does it so easily?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are trying to get this working in a different directory, but this includes the pathspec changes in portage and takes a while to get done ( as gentoo in the whole will change).

This means we need to be a tad patient...

it should work out ok soon.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i thought one of the benefits of having gentoo in / was to use the shared libraries for any program, even source code dled in tarballs
will installing in /gentoo or whatever have that same benefit?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see your point on using macosx's original libraries, but I'd just as well avoid the whole hassle of worrying whether my os will become unbootable. Besides, I like thinking of my gentoo on mac to be something I can easily remove (if something goes wrong, or if I just want to remove it) by just deleting a folder. After all, it is the way that all the other mac os x apps are managed (well, discount their X11 distribution on that), and I like the simplicity in it over typing in commands or running programs. Just drag and delete :-P

Good to see though that the devs are working on such a thing. Like I said earlier, I don't mind if its just an option, so long as it does exist at all. Some people may like it to be sure, but I like the idea of having a choice.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, don't forget the third player in MacOS open source game...Darwinports. I prefer it over Fink for many reasons, and it's got a fair number (1808) of ports available. Worth checking out, and this is certainly worth reading as well...
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't like darwinports that much, although i didn't use it that much either. i'm a gentoot all the way

aleterale: I can see how you would like to be able to drap and drop to remove gentoo, but I try to use the mouse as little as possible. Instead i use quicksilver. It catalogues the folders i tell it to for easy searching, so to launch the program "Camino" i just type the quicksilver control key (<apple><space>) then start typing camino untill it pops up. and since i use camino all the time and it remembers that, all i have to do to launch camino is type "<apple><space>c<enter>" and it launches. i don't even have to touch the trackpad except when i might want to scroll using sidetrack =)

but i do think your choice is valid and wholly logical and you should have the choice to do so
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the way NetBSD's pkgsrc does things. Everything built automatically from the pkgsrc tree goes into /usr/pkg, which practically eliminates conflicts with the OS. I've used pkgsrc on NetBSD and Solaris, but I haven't tried it out on OS X.

I'm not sure if I like how Portage on OS X integrates with the rest of the operating system. It works on Gentoo Linux because it is the official package management system on that distribution. Gentoo is packaged and maintained with Portage in mind and everyone who wants to use software with Gentoo Linux writes Portage ebuilds. With OS X, however, there are lots of competing package managers that don't play nice together, none of them have official status, and the operating system isn't packaged in a way that supports any of them. In this environment, Gentoo's policy of writing stuff straight to /usr/{bin,lib} is a bit more difficult to implement.

I'll give it a shot, though. I've been using Gentoo Linux for a year or two now, without any serious problems. If the Gentoo folks think this is the best way to go with OS X, then I'm sure it will work out.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vandahm wrote:
With OS X, however, there are lots of competing package managers that don't play nice together, none of them have official status, and the operating system isn't packaged in a way that supports any of them.

Theoretically, metapkg is supposed to make Gentoo, Fink, and DarwinPorts compatible with each other (unless I'm mistaken).
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just don't understand why everyone doesn't just work on one major project for OS X? I think Fink, Darwinports and Gentoo should just team up and work together.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

10drill wrote:
Also, don't forget the third player in MacOS open source game...Darwinports. I prefer it over Fink for many reasons, and it's got a fair number (1808) of ports available. Worth checking out, and this is certainly worth reading as well...
Exactly. I believe DarwinPorts is a very nice alternative to Fink and Gentoo on Mac OSX. And, I believe that the number of ports is well over 2000 now...
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vandahm wrote:
I like the way NetBSD's pkgsrc does things. Everything built automatically from the pkgsrc tree goes into /usr/pkg, which practically eliminates conflicts with the OS. I've used pkgsrc on NetBSD and Solaris, but I haven't tried it out on OS X.
DarwinPorts installs software, config files, and libraries in unique directories ("/opt/local", "/private/etc/ports", and "/Library/Tcl/darwinports1.0" respectively). Whack those directories and I believe all the darwinport programs are gone (without affecting the MacOS)..
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:58 pm    Post subject: About Darwinports... Reply with quote

Here's my 2 cents:
If you're going to use a package-management system, darwinports is the best.

Before we start a flame war (I know this is a gentoo forum), here's the main reason:

Darwinports is easily extendable.
This may not sound very nice, but what if I want the new version of flac? (the new one.. where the PPC code is optimized to run like 40% faster). Well.. I have a few apps that depend on flac, so do I need to uninstall them, too? In fink, it's possible to have a 'local' tree (but with fink, I got so confused right away that I left it in search of something better), but darwinports sees no difference between a 'local' repository and the 'official' CVS one.

Also - fink's packages are 'standarded' (ie... if you want to install lame w/o installing XFree, you're out of luck), and there are NO optimizations built into any packages. So when I want an altivec-optimized lame binary, again, I'm out of luck.

Don't get me wrong- I've used fink for awhile, but just found that darwinports just plain made more sense and was easier to understand.

The only thing I have to say that's wrong with darwinports is that it just hasn't taken off. Many of the ports are out of date (whenever I find one, I update the version), and there is no GUI (yet... it's being worked on). If you're on a gentoo forum, though, not having a GUI shouldn't be a problem for you :D.

Darwinports also puts everything in the /opt directory, so it's easily removable.

Ok.. I have an exam in an hour that I should probably study for...[/i]
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heres an article which compares DarwinPorts and Fink. There was no mention of Gentoo Portage on the MacOS.

http://www.oswars.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hydraulix wrote:
I just don't understand why everyone doesn't just work on one major project for OS X? I think Fink, Darwinports and Gentoo should just team up and work together.

If you ever study biology- you will learn that there is strength in diversity. Open Source software is very similar to a biosystem. Packages, much like species, have a lot of parallel development going on which in the end presents a whole array of choice. The packages undergo a process not too different to natural selection : the strong projects get worked on more - the weak less. This diversity is a great strength - nothing is ever going to be perfect and be able to do everything - there are always going to be 'trade-offs' and so the ability to choose which is best for you is a good thing.

If everyone worked on the same thing - there is always risk of the group developing tunnel vision. (I mean look at most fundamentalist relgions believing everyone should be just like them - they have all lost the plot).

This is one of the things that i like about Gentoo - hopefully soon you will be able to choose your hardware (x86, ppc, sparc, alpha), choose your kernel (linux, bsd inc darwin free open net, solaris) and then choose your packages.

Diversity rocks.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is Fink going the way of DarwinPorts? It seems like few packages are being updated? Perusal of the Fink CVS is pretty depressing, things look pretty slow. I suppose such projects are doomed because Apple can pull the rug out from under them at any time. I mean, suppose the next version of OS X has radical changes say to the compiler or--hell, what if apple switches to some wierd new proprietary filesystem--and breaks all of Fink/Darwin ports programs in one swell foop. For any of these projects to have a future, they should be able to be %100 self-contained, maybe even going so far as to requiring a boot disk and running in a chroot.

Or what about something like mac on linux for OS X? A sort of vmware to run a ppc within your ppc w/o hardware emulation. vmware does this pretty well on x86. But it costs....

Oh well, there's my $0.02.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SeJo wrote:
We are trying to get this working in a different directory, but this includes the pathspec changes in portage and takes a while to get done ( as gentoo in the whole will change).

This means we need to be a tad patient...

it should work out ok soon.


Any word on PATHSPEC? It's been quite awhile. Last I heard, pvdabeel was hoping to have something implemented we could try in February, now the rumor is "hopefully April". Does anyone know any actual details?
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