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dalu
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:40 am    Post subject: about freesoftware apps Reply with quote

being focused on webdevelopement since roughly 3 years, i'm getting more and more pissed at free software products. everyone just wants modules for oscommerce , oscommerce here oscommerce there, write your own webshop? not doable, you can't make it cheaper than free, and i surely won't pay anyone to work for them. write your own cms? are you out of your mind? there's typo3 you just have to write 5x more "code" to get the same result.

GPL opensource and free software, great as long as it's on the os level, but as soon as it comes to commercial applications i think it harms the economy more than it benefits it.

so on a personal level, i'm against it (yeah who cares what i think, i don't think this will make a change in anyones mind) because writing plugins for apps made by other people just sucks for me, and if you have a bug in the core engine, only the project maintainers can fix it in a short amount of time, i'd first have to deal with potentially obuscated code, get how the engine works and blah not fun.
on a global level my thesis is free commerce apps are bad for the economy.

windows made a good platform for businesses, with almost no software installed (other than their own crap products) and i think people are not turning to linux because linux is so great and complex, people are pissed at microsoft for obvious reasons and are changing to something that promises a cure and i moreless useable. linux on the other hand comes with a full palette of everything, not encouraging small businesses to write apps for it so they can sell them. i think this will one day break linux's neck, when all the hype is gone. whats the utopia behind, or around linux, whats's the future perspective with linux? a world that works without money? whats the big picture? there are more and more people on this planet, and there isn't enough work for everyone, so moving from real life to virtual, creating virtual problems, and virtual sollutions, virtual work and jobs seems like a good sollution. but imho linux and the GPL are slowing , and eventually destroying that movement.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree.

There are plenty of jobs out there that are based off of linux and open source software. IIRC, IBM just recently opened up 13000 new jobs, partly due to it's success with linux.

Open Source is great for all businesses, with the exception of making a profit off of proprietary software. Linux is still built in such a way that proprietary applications can be run on top of them and not break any licensing (think: VMWare, WineX), so even the proprietary software business can easily survive.

For computer hardware, it's even greater! I was able to just slash $150 off the cost of a server and beat a competitors price due to running Linux as opposed to Windows XP Pro. On top of that, I get the money for service and setting it up, so I just won the deal over.

I could go on further on this subject, but I'm tired and don't feel like going into it further.

edit: oh, and Open Source is great for the variety of companys that don't deal with computers, as they get to save money on software that would just go to the bank of Microsoft and put it somewhere more useful (i.e. employees paychecks, the open market)
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unlike software widgets, once a hardware widget is designed it still takes manpower to reproduce it which leads to continuing employment opportunities. By using FOSS companies and individuals stop wasting money on such "virtual" things such as licenses which allows them to funnel more funds into real things that require real people to reproduce.
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dalu
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wolvenwraith: from your hardware selling point of view , i agree. IBM jobs are because of the linux migration in munich, timelimited contracts or projectoriented. like i said, it's absolutely fine on a os level.
there is close to no effect on the economy, because a system gets sold anyway. it's just you "lost" 150 that the buyer can spend on on something else, or keep it in the bank, which would harm the economy.

EzInKy: your point of view is the businessmans , ceos. i think you don't want to know the way it works, you want spend as little as possible and get as much as possible. you don't want to know if you run a webshop designed for your needs or one for the mass, as long as one of them is cheaper and doing its job. why pay 2000 when you can pay 500
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:06 pm    Post subject: Re: about freesoftware apps Reply with quote

For a start, how do you define "the economy"? If I buy a copy of Windows, that money leaves the country and promptly flies straight back to Bill G. That's good for the American economy, but crap for mine - my economy benefits more if I use Gentoo and spend the windows money on beer instead.

Who exactly is going to be put out of a job anyway? Quite a few of my friends work in IT. I doubt many of them would be out of a job if their workplaces changed to Linux - they'd still need net admins etc. If someone works on web development, it doesn't make a blind bit of difference if they're developing in PHP against mySQL or ASP.NET against Oracle, the service they provide is required anyway.

dalu wrote:

...because writing plugins for apps made by other people just sucks for me, and if you have a bug in the core engine, only the project maintainers can fix it in a short amount of time, i'd first have to deal with potentially obuscated code, get how the engine works and blah not fun.


I'm a bit lost here. Somehow it's better writing plugins for commercial closed-source apps? Yeah, there are bugs in open-source apps, but it's fair to say there are at least as many in closed-source ones too, and frequently the company isn't remotely interested in fixing them.

Personally I find it fairly ironic that Microsoft beat their competition by a variety of tough commercial tactics, muchly revolving around price. The x86/Windows platform isn't technically superior to it's competition, but they undercut people and otherwise force them out. Now someone's undercutting Microsoft with free software, and suddenly it's all unfair and "bad for the economy". When has competition ever been bad before?

Capitalism encourages you to use the cheapest product. It also encourages the people writing software to charge what they think they deserve to be paid. If Linus and cohorts want to write software for free, that's up to them.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dalu wrote:
wolvenwraith: from your hardware selling point of view , i agree. IBM jobs are because of the linux migration in munich, timelimited contracts or projectoriented. like i said, it's absolutely fine on a os level.
there is close to no effect on the economy, because a system gets sold anyway. it's just you "lost" 150 that the buyer can spend on on something else, or keep it in the bank, which would harm the economy.

EzInKy: your point of view is the businessmans , ceos. i think you don't want to know the way it works, you want spend as little as possible and get as much as possible. you don't want to know if you run a webshop designed for your needs or one for the mass, as long as one of them is cheaper and doing its job. why pay 2000 when you can pay 500


I don't think you nderstood entirely, or I may not have relayed it correctly.

By being able to save the customer money (that I would have spent on hardware), I earned MORE on service (which goes in MY pocket, not Microsoft's).

I would much rather have the money that letting microsoft get the money that I earned.

And the buyer get's their money's worth. That 150 stayed in circulation (MY circulation, which is my favorite type of circulation).

Outside of that, you had made no point for me to respond to.

Quote:
I'm a bit lost here. Somehow it's better writing plugins for commercial closed-source apps? Yeah, there are bugs in open-source apps, but it's fair to say there are at least as many in closed-source ones too, and frequently the company isn't remotely interested in fixing them.


Agreed. Open Source is in the best interest of the common man's economy. I don't want Old Billy G taking my money.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dalu wrote:

EzInKy: your point of view is the businessmans , ceos. i think you don't want to know the way it works, you want spend as little as possible and get as much as possible. you don't want to know if you run a webshop designed for your needs or one for the mass, as long as one of them is cheaper and doing its job. why pay 2000 when you can pay 500


It's obvious that for a business to succeed it has to control costs to make a profit. I mean, why pay even $500 for software if you can get it for free? My point was that as far as employment opportunites are concerned many more jobs are created by encourging CEO's to concentrate those costs in hardware and service than wasting their money on licensing software. Hardware has a finite lifetime and takes people to reproduce even after it has been designed and services requires people to perform them. Once a piece of software is written, except for bug fixes and occasional improvements, it requires nothing more than "cp such-and-such" to reproduce.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: about freesoftware apps Reply with quote

Archangel1 wrote:
For a start, how do you define "the economy"? If I buy a copy of Windows, that money leaves the country and promptly flies straight back to Bill G. That's good for the American economy, but crap for mine - my economy benefits more if I use Gentoo and spend the windows money on beer instead.

Who exactly is going to be put out of a job anyway? Quite a few of my friends work in IT. I doubt many of them would be out of a job if their workplaces changed to Linux - they'd still need net admins etc. If someone works on web development, it doesn't make a blind bit of difference if they're developing in PHP against mySQL or ASP.NET against Oracle, the service they provide is required anyway.

I'm a bit lost here. Somehow it's better writing plugins for commercial closed-source apps? Yeah, there are bugs in open-source apps, but it's fair to say there are at least as many in closed-source ones too, and frequently the company isn't remotely interested in fixing them.

Personally I find it fairly ironic that Microsoft beat their competition by a variety of tough commercial tactics, muchly revolving around price. The x86/Windows platform isn't technically superior to it's competition, but they undercut people and otherwise force them out. Now someone's undercutting Microsoft with free software, and suddenly it's all unfair and "bad for the economy". When has competition ever been bad before?

Capitalism encourages you to use the cheapest product. It also encourages the people writing software to charge what they think they deserve to be paid. If Linus and cohorts want to write software for free, that's up to them.


paragraph 1: as i said it's fine on an os level.
paragraph 2: who, well. software developers, not all. example: the phpdev that writes a plugin for oscommerce, gets 500, instead of getting 2000 for a complete webshop, resulting in firing one of his employees. defining the economy. in europe, whenever you buy something you pay a %ual tax. so from a 150 euro winxp pro copy the country gets @15% 22.5 euro. it's the same with work, i'm creating software you ordered, i get 1000 euro , from those 1000 the courty gets lets say 50% 500 euro (if i don't have a good tax advisor) this means, no sales - no tax income. lower sales - lower tax income. lets compare gimp2 and photoshop. who will pay 700$ for photoshop if there is gimp2 offering the about same functionality. which small company will write an image manipulation program with gimp2 being so advanced already? or which unemployed programer or group of programers.
paragraph 3: it's more fun to write your own app than writing a plugin for an app. and it gets paid better. it doesn't matter if it's opensource or not.
paragraph 4: thats not what i said, read again. i said that the lack of good apps that come with windows encourages individuals to start their own business by writing an app thats beneficial to windows. this individual has this opportunity because that app doesn't come with windows.
paragraph 5: yeah just that he doesn't do it for free, for instance he registered the trademark linux. did you ever wonder why all the distros don't call themselves xyz linux, it's just xyz.
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dalu
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wolvenwraith wrote:
Outside of that, you had made no point for me to respond to.


i didn't make one, i agreed to what you said, and made a sidenote to which you responded. all i can do is to repeat that a free os is great.
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dalu
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EzInKy wrote:

It's obvious that for a business to succeed it has to control costs to make a profit. I mean, why pay even $500 for software if you can get it for free? My point was that as far as employment opportunites are concerned many more jobs are created by encourging CEO's to concentrate those costs in hardware and service than wasting their money on licensing software. Hardware has a finite lifetime and takes people to reproduce even after it has been designed and services requires people to perform them. Once a piece of software is written, except for bug fixes and occasional improvements, it requires nothing more than "cp such-and-such" to reproduce.


thanks for your insight.
do you have higher or lower costs with linux and its service workers and eventually cheaper hardware and close to no cost for software over 3 years time? are you just using linux or are you also using free or opensource webapplications , in other words, how or where are you using linux?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

one thing no one answered to yet
Quote:

whats the utopia behind, or around linux, whats's the future perspective with linux? a world that works without money? whats the big picture? there are more and more people on this planet, and there isn't enough work for everyone, so moving from real life to virtual, creating virtual problems, and virtual sollutions, virtual work and jobs seems like a good sollution.

for me it's actually more interesting to know your opinion on that
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dalu wrote:
one thing no one answered to yet
Quote:

whats the utopia behind, or around linux, whats's the future perspective with linux? a world that works without money? whats the big picture? there are more and more people on this planet, and there isn't enough work for everyone, so moving from real life to virtual, creating virtual problems, and virtual sollutions, virtual work and jobs seems like a good sollution.


The world is NOT the computer-industry - remember, computers are not a goal in themselves, they are merely a tool to help people engaged in productive, and critical, industries, such as medicine, construction, etc. If software becomes essentially free (as in beer), it will be a major boon for the various industries relying on computers to improve their productivity.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: about freesoftware apps Reply with quote

dalu wrote:
paragraph 1: as i said it's fine on an os level.


Substitute "Office" for "Windows" and my point remains.

dalu wrote:
which small company will write an image manipulation program with gimp2 being so advanced already? or which unemployed programer or group of programers.


One could say the same thing about competing with Photoshop - but the GIMP came out nonetheless.

dalu wrote:

paragraph 4: thats not what i said, read again. i said that the lack of good apps that come with windows encourages individuals to start their own business by writing an app thats beneficial to windows. this individual has this opportunity because that app doesn't come with windows.


This starts to sound disturbingly like an argument that the OS needs to remain crap in order to keep 3rd party developers in business. I'd disagree entirely - Microsoft (for example) should be doing their utmost to provide the best software to their customers, not relying on other developers to do it for them.

dalu wrote:

paragraph 5: yeah just that he doesn't do it for free, for instance he registered the trademark linux. did you ever wonder why all the distros don't call themselves xyz linux, it's just xyz.


trademark != patent. All Linus having the trademark says is that Microsoft can't release "Microsoft Linux 2005". That doesn't mean he can charge everyone fees to use Linux.
And note distributions such as Slackware Linux, Mandrake Linux, Arch Linux, Rock Linux.... it hardly seems to be illegal for them to use the term.
I would argue he does do it for free. I can go to kernel.org and download the latest Linux kernel, without paying Linus a cent. He is paid by some body or another to do this now, but that wasn't actually my point - my point was that he doesn't charge for use of the kernel. This may not have been entirely clear from wording.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IIRC Linus got the trademark for Linux after somebody else had already registered it and tried to cash in with it. Linux community sued him and won. Although he didn't really want, Linus got the trademark because it was best thing to do from the legal standpoint.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: about freesoftware apps Reply with quote

Archangel1 wrote:

This starts to sound disturbingly like an argument that the OS needs to remain crap in order to keep 3rd party developers in business. I'd disagree entirely - Microsoft (for example) should be doing their utmost to provide the best software to their customers, not relying on other developers to do it for them.


yeah but if they do so they get lawsuits ;), example the bundled mediaplayer.

Archangel1 wrote:

trademark != patent. All Linus having the trademark says is that Microsoft can't release "Microsoft Linux 2005". That doesn't mean he can charge everyone fees to use Linux.
And note distributions such as Slackware Linux, Mandrake Linux, Arch Linux, Rock Linux.... it hardly seems to be illegal for them to use the term.
I would argue he does do it for free. I can go to kernel.org and download the latest Linux kernel, without paying Linus a cent. He is paid by some body or another to do this now, but that wasn't actually my point - my point was that he doesn't charge for use of the kernel. This may not have been entirely clear from wording.


hmm ok , what happens if linus dies?
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Athas wrote:

The world is NOT the computer-industry - remember, computers are not a goal in themselves, they are merely a tool to help people engaged in productive, and critical, industries, such as medicine, construction, etc. If software becomes essentially free (as in beer), it will be a major boon for the various industries relying on computers to improve their productivity.


ok , but what will all the unemployed people formerly working in the computer industry do? and what will the workers that got replaced by machines in other industries do? are we after all moving toward the utopia of letting machines do our work so we can focus on art/music/research , or will it be like this that a handfull people control all of the worlds population because they have all the money and knowhow , or will those unemployed workers/computerindustrists (what a word) start working in the agriculture industry , because once oil runs out and most agricultural vehicles stop running we need manpower to feed the ever growing world population. or something completely different?
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Offhand, I believe the trademark goes to his estate, or whomever he leaves it to, as does any asset.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dalu wrote:
what will all the unemployed people formerly working in the computer industry do?
Retrain and do something else? Or how about write new software?

You seem to show a lack of knowledge of both free software economics and macroeconomics, with the same mentality as Luddites. Some people that are unable to adapt, inevitable suffer [financially] in the face of change. This does not mean that the economy suffers.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linux is not truly free, OSS software is not truly free, there is substantial time and knowledge invested.

Really the license should be free for non commercial purposes but that was awkward to put in when Stallman wanted to fix his printer. In fact it is not that awkward, and probably needs to be looked at sooner than later.

Software evolves and you cannot base your business on software that has no business plan, no discernable source of revenue.

What happens when the developer leaves the OSS projects to find paid work?

What happens when something goes wrong?

A person does not get kudos from professional developers for developing OSS, in fact developing OSS might even hamper your acceptance into a paying role, in many instances.

What happens is the developer of the software screws himself, and the marketing people, business boys earn a shed load of money off the back of the developer. Sure there are some kick backs but they are disproportionate to the effort and knowledge expended.

I think OSS developers are crazy (yeah I have a few OSS projects as well, but they are based on open standards in encryption and more of interest to myself), you don't see lawyers, accountants, or even doctors working in this fashion.

Most of this has come about because of MicroSoft's aggressive pricing strategy, where the only way to compete so that Joe Public would understand was to compete on price. Most people now realise a unix solution is the best way to go, and offers quality over a MS solution. Times are changing and OSS with a free price tag for business might be in it's last phase. We are already starting to see a shift from some of the major players, and I welcome the day when a business has to buy Apache for $100.

When the rest of society starts to offer their services for free, then Linux will have worked, until dentists, doctors, lawyers, accountants, marketing, farmers, and shops all offer their products and services for nothing will free software be representative of something to include in an economy. Everything has a time cost associated with it, to generate revenue you expend time, be that planting a seed, tiling the land, going to dental school, and then subsequently pulling teeth all of it costs time, it is the only finite resource we have as humans.

Take the humble light bulb, you can buy ones with a ridiculous long life span (with an equally ridiculous pice tag), but most are designed to break after an acceptable period, we need to get clever like the light bulb.

We hold the keys to our chastity belt but instead we prefer to give it to all and sundry for the cheap and often falsely expressed words of 'I love you'.

So, I say be selective as to where you put your efforts in, remember you may not be getting the kudos you crave from your peers by just making free software, most of us want to see a price tag somewhere on software, it validates what we do for a living.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: about freesoftware apps Reply with quote

Archangel1 wrote:
This starts to sound disturbingly like an argument that the OS needs to remain crap in order to keep 3rd party developers in business. I'd disagree entirely - Microsoft (for example) should be doing their utmost to provide the best software to their customers, not relying on other developers to do it for them.


Actually that's exactly what Microsoft is trying to avoid. See, they depend on all the software makers to support their OS so they can continue to keep their monopoly. What do you think would happen if Microsoft included antivirus/firewall software in Windows that was better than the competition? I don't think Norton and similar would be too happy about that...
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just so people realise how bad the IT sector is at the moment for new graduates, IT rates as the worst group to find a job 3 months after graduation, people in fine arts find it easier to find paid employment.

And yet some people's reaction to this is just to produce free software that they give away and subsequently gets used by the same people who are not employing them.

The Linux market is maturing, gone are the rebel days of Linux, when it was the penguin against the multi coloured window, you are better off harnessing the power of OSS to produce commercial applications, even if you don't sell one unit and only allow personal use, it looks better to a prospective employer.

It means you are not willing to just have your skill set exploited and to get your contributions they will have to pay a fee rather than just sit back and wait for you to do the work gratis.

This is something that businesses respect, especially corporates, where the money involved is not their own.

All the big players in the Linux world have contributions coming in from big companies, it is the small developer who doesn't.
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