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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some other links from this thread.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And so it begins...

Peter Gabriel album preview deployed in MS audio push

A shame too... I like his music.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is one of thoes things that just makes me sooooooooooooo mad. Why most of my windows using freinds just dont' understand what their losing. I wish the average person could be made aware of the rights that are covertly being taken awawy from them. I guess I just pray that this shit can be turned off and linux will work b/c I'm not gona buy any Palladium OS or software. And I really hope that the DOJ takes a look at the implications of M$ being at the helm of this system. I just find it hard to believe they aren't gona abuse their power to try and crush linux.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think linux is a major reason they are doing this.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kanuslupus wrote:
I think linux is a major reason they are doing this.


Yeah really what burns me even more was reading money magazine a few months back. At that time M$ had something like 45 billion in liquid assets. They pointed out that was enough to buy the entire airline industry 3 times over. They have over 90% of the market share. Why do they need to eliminate linux. It would be like Ford making roads and trynig to design a road only ford cars coudl drive on puting GM Toyota and everyone else out of business. As much as I don't like goverment meddling in business I really think they need to put a stop to M$ empire.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

something just occured to me one could figure out the signals this software uses to go out and covertly check on you. Put your paladium systems behind a linux firewall running on pre-palladium hardware like a 233 and drop all trafic to the ips used by M$ RIAA and whoever elses wants to check in on you......
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kanuslupus wrote:
I think linux is a major reason they are doing this.


Really? Linux itself won't be destroyed by this, merely the rights and usefulness of the GPL and community. While that is a great side effect for Microsoft, I think you'll find the primary backers of this scheme are the media congloms that are trying to halt a rampant flood of piracy, and with the Secure Memory Space technology implied in DRM OS', crack into the video and audio on demand market without fear that people will use debuggers to just copy the content out of memory and onto disk and/or use one of a thousand other replay attacks.

I think that linux or no linux, this was only a matter of time with current trends towards piracy of music, software and cinema. I don't really think it will work. I don't think it will make things more secure either ( can't wait for the first signed, malicious trojan to appear in the wild ).

Anyway, my 2c.

-- Curious.

P.S. Regarding jthj's later post, I don't think your scheme would work. You see, once people drop their Palladium certification information, they might find large chunks of the web inaccessible. The risk was never that they'll spy on you - instead, that outside parties will have, in effect, a secure local root on your machine. They can then mete out bits and pieces of information to you as they see fit. Have a look at some of the TCPA FAQ's for more information.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curious wrote:

P.S. Regarding jthj's later post, I don't think your scheme would work. You see, once people drop their Palladium certification information, they might find large chunks of the web inaccessible. The risk was never that they'll spy on you - instead, that outside parties will have, in effect, a secure local root on your machine. They can then mete out bits and pieces of information to you as they see fit. Have a look at some of the TCPA FAQ's for more information.


Yeah I looked at that. Just infuriates me more nedless to say I dont' think I'll be running any OS that does that. I'm gona be 100% linux when it happens.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curious wrote:
You see, once people drop their Palladium certification information, they might find large chunks of the web inaccessible.
This is where I think linux will be hurt. As "anyone" could remove the code which would implement the TCPA/Palladium software, I think linux will be "left out" more than they already are at many sites. Many sites already use MSIE only content. Some are gracious enough to allow versions of Netscape. Was it you that brought up ISPs and TCPA logins?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kanuslupus wrote:
As "anyone" could remove the code which would implement the TCPA/Palladium software, I think linux will be "left out" more than they already are at many sites. Many sites already use MSIE only content. Some are gracious enough to allow versions of Netscape. Was it you that brought up ISPs and TCPA logins?


Yes, that was me. I hasten to say though that that is only speculation, and there is no indication that any ISPs are thinking of going down that road. On the other hand, it would make billing, authentication and hijacked accounts a thing of the past... I'm sure they'll follow the money.

Just to rewind a bit, the Palladium standard ( an 'open standard', ironically ) allows users to deactivate their TCPA hardware in the BIOS. So Windows users will also be able to drop out of the DRM web of trust just as easily as the rest of us.

This, to me, is the only bright speck of hope. Disabling TCPA in the bios, and then dusting off my ( very dusty ) old reverse engineering and protocol breaking 'skillz' to try and create a user controllable software emulation of a Palladium board.

A long time ago this would have been legal under the provisions for interoperability that protected reverse engineering, as this would allow old hardware to take part in the 'Modern Net', but I'm not sure if such a project would be able to fly past the DMCA.

-- Curious.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curious wrote:
Yes, that was me. I hasten to say though that that is only speculation, and there is no indication that any ISPs are thinking of going down that road.
I think they will over time. If not for logins, billing etc. as you mentioned. TCPA will be well established before this happens though.
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Just to rewind a bit, the Palladium standard ( an 'open standard', ironically ) allows users to deactivate their TCPA hardware in the BIOS.
MS users can also install Netscape or Mozilla or an alternative media player, but few do. I suspect this feature is in place only for the early stages. After all, if Windows XP 2003 is released (with TCPA support) and they happen to have a bug or two ;), this allows them to 'disable' the feature and get around the bugs. I'd put money that 'Windows Update' will only work for TCPA enabled systems... no more 'borrowed' copies of the OS. I don't have a problem with this part, just so many others.
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This, to me, is the only bright speck of hope. Disabling TCPA in the bios, and then dusting off my ( very dusty ) old reverse engineering and protocol breaking 'skillz' to try and create a user controllable software emulation of a Palladium board.
Would you like a cell next to the guy that made DeCSS? ;)
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am still cautiously optimistic here. I think two types of people are going to have vastly different reactions to this stuff.

Type A: home users who view their computer as "Television 2.0". They may grumble a bit, but will be more or less fine with it. If you don't pay the cable bill every month, the cable company cuts the pipe off. Same thing, right?

Type B: people who administer large multiuser setups. These people are going to go ballistic about the idea of any third party having remote root access to their machines. Corpsec types and sysadmins are not going to be happy about this.

People (like me) who learned about computing in a single-user PC environment have no concept of security. It's only when you administer a multiuser box (I still remember the feeling of installing linux the first time, staring at the # prompt and thinking: goddess, I'm root!) that the concepts made sense to me.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kanuslupus wrote:
MS users can also install Netscape or Mozilla or an alternative media player, but few do. I suspect this feature is in place only for the early stages.


It's 5pm, so this will be brief. ;-)

TCPA puts users between a rock and a hard place. Users want to be able to access the latest media on their machines ( DVD's, video on demand, etc ), but they also want to be able to drink at the fountain of piracy ( Warez and crack trading is still pretty much endemic ). Will a user buy a computer that won't let them play their cracked copy of Final Fantasy XXI? They might, if they find out they can't play the latest generation of digital audio discs, or watch their second generation dvd's without a TCPA secure memory area for the players to reside in.

What's going to happen? Will a lack of consumer adoption put these technologies in the boneyard? End users will either have to get off the free stolen IP gravy boat ( for example, good luck finding a signed mp3 ripper ), or refrain from purchasing TCPA enabled audio, software and video. I don't know which way the card is going to fall.

kanuslupus wrote:
After all, if Windows XP 2003 is released (with TCPA support) and they happen to have a bug or two ;), this allows them to 'disable' the feature and get around the bugs. I'd put money that 'Windows Update' will only work for TCPA enabled systems... no more 'borrowed' copies of the OS.


I agree. In fact, preventing OS piracy has been stated several times ( including some extremely culturally insensitive comments ) as one of the better outcomes of this zany scheme. Two other points / predictions:

~ If people create cracking assaults that circumvent TCPA secure execution boundaries, or appear to be signed, they'll be held onto until it becomes impossible to remove the TCPA boundary from your machine.

~ It won't be 2003. Palladium is currently estimated to be 3-4 years away from deployment.


kanuslupus wrote:
Would you like a cell next to the guy that made DeCSS? ;)


Heh heh. :-) Well, if it was a purely DMCA violation, I'm not sure whether to be scared or not. I live in Australia. But then again, Dmitri Skylarov lived in Russia, and look what happened to him 8O

I guess like a lot of my better work, it would have to be released anonymously. :-P

-- Curious.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kanuslupus wrote:
I suspect this feature is in place only for the early stages.


Incidently, this, ( and a recent slashdot thread drew the same conclusions ) is an excellent example of the riddle / saying 'How do you boil a frog?'

-- Curious
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curious wrote:
'How do you boil a frog?'
In a pot of water? I'm not sure I've heard that saying before.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cha ching!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kanuslupus wrote:
In a pot of water? I'm not sure I've heard that saying before.


I asked my GF when I got home, and she'd never heard of it either. Am I the only one who uses this phrase? :oops:

The answer is slowly. You can't throw a frog into a boiling pot of water - it'll jump straight back out ( I've never boiled a frog, but I have cooked prawns in this fashion while on a long camping expedition ). You put the frog in tepid water, and raise the temperature gently.

The frog gets comfortable, enjoys the warmth, and by the time it notices that, "Hey, is it getting hot in here?", it's already too weakened to make a jump for freedom.

Now, to try and make this relevant, DRM will be similar. At first you'll only need it on to get a few 'extra features', or similar perks. Slowly more and more stuff will migrate into the DRM trust boundary, and then one day people will realise that it's hard to do any of their 'day to day' tasks without their DRM hardware switched on. At that point, the consolation that 'you can turn it off in bios' will seem very cold comfort indeed.

-- Curious
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2002 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Gentoo Chefs out there can resume cooking over here.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2002 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do people who buy computers today no longer write their own programs on them? When I started using computers, that was pretty much all you could do with them. If you didn't write your own software, there wasn't any. You had BASIC in ROM.

I bought one of the original Macintoshes in 1984, and the thing that made me more frustrated and angry with it than anything was that I couldn't hack on it.

If all software that runs on a TCPA system has to be signed, and you don't have the ability to become your own CA like you do with jarsigner or mod_ssl, am I correct in understanding that hobby program writing will not be possible?

This sounds like a pretty major drawback to me.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2002 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rac wrote:
Do people who buy computers today no longer write their own programs on them? When I started using computers, that was pretty much all you could do with them. If you didn't write your own software, there wasn't any. You had BASIC in ROM.


By and large, no, they don't.

And sure, you might be able to sign your own software. But who out there is going to trust your key? Not Microsofts Palladium engine, that's for sure, unless you're a large certification house.

The key here is that this will destroy *interaction* between the hackers and the ( TCPA enabled ) populace at large, or so I am led to believe.

-- Curious.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2002 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
kanuslupus wrote:
Especially considering there aren't any real alternatives. Apple? No, they are worse in this respect than MS IMO.

Actually, Apple has a pretty decent track record when it comes to shoving DRM down users' throats (or rather, not shoving it down their throats)


Life's lookin up[/Eddie Money]

Can Apple resist the evil entertainment cartel? Will Congress actually do something for the People?

Now I just have to resolve my issues with Apple's closed environment (yes, I know there are advantages).
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2002 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rac wrote:
If all software that runs on a TCPA system has to be signed, and you don't have the ability to become your own CA like you do with jarsigner or mod_ssl, am I correct in understanding that hobby program writing will not be possible?

This sounds like a pretty major drawback to me.

I've been thinking about that lately. What would happen if I (sha right) wanted to write a TCPA-enabled program? Well, I could test it in TCPA-enabled mode or non-TCPA-enabled mode (according to the Big Brothers...IBM, M$, Intel, AMD, etc, this will be possible via the BIOS). Well, seeing as it's a TCPA-enabled program, running it under the non-TCPA-enabled mode is more or less useless. So that leaves TCPA-enabled mode. OK, in order for my program to work correctly in that mode, it must be signed... each time I compile it for debugging or release purposes. EVERY TIME!! If my TCPA feature accesses a third-party's TCPA server feature, that third-, or another fourth-party would have to sign it each time I compile the program.

Say it ain't so.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2002 1:25 pm    Post subject: TCPA/Palladiums Petition (our Future?) Reply with quote

Who don't know what this Topic mean should read this
-> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html#additions

The Petiton could be found at
-> http://www.petitiononline.com/endtcpa1/petition.html

There is also a German Forum for this Topic at
-> http://www.weselyb.net/forum/phpBB2/

Please inform you and others about the Palladium Project and make it popular its about our Future.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2002 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I signed the petition, and I mean every word of my comment: "The TCPA will literally put me out of a job."

With TCPA-enabled computers, you can run them with TCPA on or off. Of course, this is the way it starts. Eventually, no one would ever run their computers with TCPA off. It would seriously cripple their machines because none of their software would work. Which brings me to my point. I write small programs for a living. Data entry, Database manipulation, etc. With TCPA, each of my little programs would have to be digitally signed by a third party. Seeing as I work for my University and am solely funded by grant money, there is no way we could sign every program I write. Thus, they would not work. Hence, I'm out of a job that I love. QED.

Please sign the petition. Please call your congressmen/women. I already have. In fact, I think I'll be calling them again today.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2002 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To potential posters, we already have a thread discussing TCPA/Palladium. Post comments with that in mind.
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