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Ferris
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 4:30 pm    Post subject: xorg-x11 experiences. Reply with quote

Several people have recently started testing xorg-x11 as a replacement for xfree.
In support of that, it might be useful to collect user experiences as they come in, in order
to build a picture of what this xfree-4.4+ replacement looks like. (For now, we are talking
x11-base/xorg-x11-6.7.0 here.)

Some preliminary remarks in no particular order:

  • You will also have to install x11-terms/xterm-184 and sys-apps/utempter-0.5.3.2-r1 (this will happen automatically);
  • The 19776 libGL segfault problems are gone. Essentially, xorg-x11 incorporates the huge patch which is the final attachment to this bug;
  • Fonts are moved from /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts to /usr/share/fonts (as is also
    the case with xfree-4.3.0-r6 and beyond);
  • After install, you must run 'opengl-update xorg-x11'
  • The "official" config file is xorg.conf, but XF86Config will still work;
  • The Microsoft fonts are not included.
  • Doubtless many other things which all of you will remind me of or correct me on.


As well as comments regarding reliability and robustness, I am particularly interested
in the following sorts of things:

  • Appearance. How your various favorite applications, browsers, window managers,
    and so on look to you compared with xfree;
  • Performance. Any performance differences between the two; especially
  • libGL (opengl)-related performance by video card (mach64, creator, elite, or
    whatever you are using.)


Of course, I have some observations from a U60+Elite3D-m3, but they
are very preliminary. So, in order not to bias you one way or the other,
at this time I am not disclosing them. (Yes, I know that's a cop out :lol:)

Thanks for any responses;
Regards,
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YopWongSapn
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a good idea. I have been curious about what other people think about xorg-x11. Ironically enough, I was just thinking about giving it a test spin. I'll be sure and post what I think once I get a chance to test it out.
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bung-foo
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I bit on this one. And here's what I did in the order I did it:

1. add ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~sparc" to /etc/make.conf
2. emerge -C xfree
3. emerge xorg-x11
4. opengl-update xorg-x11
5. /etc/init.d/xdm start

I got a nice gdm login screen and logged into gnome. Everything seems ok so far. The fonts are nice and clean looking. I don't really feel any speed increase.

Is there anything I should do to make sure that an app I build in the future doesn't try to build xfree?


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Weeve
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most applications should have already been fixed to use the virtual/x11 dependency (which xorg-x11 provides). If you find one that hasn't been fixed, please file a bug at https://bugs.gentoo.org and let us know.
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bung-foo
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its a deal.


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Ferris
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, a hint. I am interested in glxgears timings xfree <--> xorg. :wink:
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smart
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hiya,
cannot give you any comparing figures, but what i can say is that the savage driver results in immediate 0 frames a second for me.
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bung-foo
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my ultra 80 with an elite 3d m6 and two procs
> glxgears
412 frames in 5.0 seconds = 82.400 FPS
357 frames in 5.0 seconds = 71.400 FPS
492 frames in 6.0 seconds = 82.000 FPS
480 frames in 6.0 seconds = 80.000 FPS

I can't provide comparison numbers because I couldn't ever get glx and dri to work before ;-)

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Ferris
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. That helps confirm that right now, with an Elite at least, the
performance of xorg+glx is pretty bad compared with xfree-4.3.0 (if you can
make it run).

For example, if you run that same xorg-glxgears over a network to an Xfree
system, you will see about twice that performance.

Another example, if you grab Mesa-6.0.1 from Mesa3D.org and replace
the '-mv8' with '-mcpu=ultrasparc' in the build path for sparc-ultra-linux
(or some permutation on that), the resulting libGL as a drop-in replacement
for xorg-glx will give a huge performance boost.

Bottom line: For Elite, at least, there is a tremendous penalty if you get at
opengl like this -- Program+libGL <--> Xorg <--> Mesa -- which is not present
in xfree. Indeed, either of these gives better performance:

  • Program+libGL <--> LAN <--> xfree <--> Mesa
  • Program+Mesa-libGL <--> Xorg


I do not know yet if the same is true of Creator or not. We'll all find out, though.
(Creator takes a somewhat different path through libGL, because it can
do dri/drm. It's just that the xfree/xorg module to do that for the ffb is
broken. Still, as I recall, it ends up using different logic.)

Notice that inserting Xorg between the program using opengl and opengl itself
makes little sense with an Elite, because Elite does not do dri/drm. So if
you have an Elite, you probably want to ba able to opengl-update mesa
or such-like anyway.

That's a whole lot more information than I am sure of. I'm using this
thread as a place to collect information and to keep my working notes.
Sorry about that. :P
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stonent
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was using whatever the last 4.399 version was before I screwed up my install. Xine played with a lot of pink noise in it. (Like the overlay was peeking through) Using XV or any other video technique.

Anyone gotten DRM working on the ATI framebuffers?
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Gecklord
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be interesting which Sun framebuffers are supported yet...
I searched the homepage for these infos but couldn't find anything about supported devices!
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Ferris
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can guess by looking at /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/drivers ; The
driver set hasn't changed for years because xfree/xorg do little or no testing
on sparc linux.

Here's what's there:

Code:

terciopelo drivers #
terciopelo drivers # ls . linux
.:
total 1560
  4 ./              352 glint_drv.o*   100 savage_drv.o*   152 sunffb_drv.o*   20 vga_drv.o*
  4 ../               4 linux/           8 sunbw2_drv.o*    36 sunleo_drv.o*
 40 ati_drv.o*      224 mga_drv.o*       8 suncg14_drv.o*   12 suntcx_drv.o*
140 atimisc_drv.o*  116 r128_drv.o*      8 suncg3_drv.o*    84 tdfx_drv.o*
 20 fbdev_drv.o*    188 radeon_drv.o*   12 suncg6_drv.o*    28 vesa_drv.o*

linux:
total 28
 4 ./   4 ../  20 v4l_drv.o*


Most normal framebuffers should be OK, but be aware, the expert series
is not supported, last I knew.
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Mark Clegg
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just switched over to Xorg on my Ultra 5 (Mach 64) and it certainly looks OK so far.

enlightenment and kde both appear normal....
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Ferris
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer myself somewhat. With xorg-x11, U2+Creator, glxgears's performance is
unchanged. So we are looking at an Elite-only problem with the performance degradation.
Doubtless because Elite does not even try to do DRM.
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Ferris
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

More talking to myself, but for this record, xorg-x11 is fine on SS20+cg6,
but with same performance hit as with Elite (50% degradation) on
glx for, I suppose, similar reasons.
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