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Tux's lil' helper
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 6:44 am    Post subject: The Gentoo XD2 port project Reply with quote

Announcing the XD2 port to Gentoo GNU/Linux.

I will be undertaking the daunting task of creating ebuilds for the Ximian GNOME packages in order to provide Gentoo users with the stability and polished DE that comes with XD2.

~Goals~
* To provide XD2 for Gentoo, deviating from Ximian's package decisions as little as possible (exceptions are possible).

This implies:
* Each XD2 package will conflict with its counterpart. (In other words, xd2-extra/gaim and net-im/gaim will not be allowed to co-exist on the same system). This is done to provide the XD2 environment as close to the way Ximian ships it as possible.
* "Vanilla GNOME" will not be installed at the same time as XD2. As a result of the above statement, users will not be able to choose between XD2 and Vanilla GNOME. This decision has not yet been made final, and I am still open to arguments against it. But for simplicities sake (and again, to mimic Ximian's installation onto other systems), I do feel that the user should pick GNOME or XD2.

~Packaging~
The Gentoo XD2 port comes in 3 categories: xd2-base, xd2-extra, and xd2-deps. xd2-base contains the base GNOME packages that a user needs to install in order to start a XD2/GNOME session. xd2-extra contains the extra packages that XD2 ships with that aren't neccessary for daily usage; consider this the 'catch-all' category for the XD2 packages. xd2-deps contains the system packages that are shipped with XD2 but aren't technically part of GNOME. The GTK+ and related packages are an example of this.

Following is a list of packages that will be in the Gentoo XD2 port. This is by no means complete. It is based off of the packages in ftp://ftp.ximian.com/pub/gnome-2-snapshot/redhat-72-i386/ and what currently exists in the gnome-* categories in Portage. An updated list, containing all the packages that XD2 ships with will be available in a few days. I will try to use as many system packages as possible, to keep the amount of packages in the Gentoo XD2 port to a minimum. I don't imagine many more non-GNOME packages will be added, as Gentoo has a very broad package selection, and I will make as extensive use of that as I can.
Code:
xd2-base:
bonobo-activation  gnome-desktop           libglade         metacity
control-center     gnome-mime-data         libgnome         nautilus
eel                gnome-panel             libgnomecanvas   ORBit2
gail               gnome-session           libgnomeprint    scrollkeeper
gconf              gnome-vfs               libgnomeprintui  xd2
gdm                gtk-engines-industrial  libgnomeui       xd2-core
gnome-applets      libbonobo               libgtop          xd2-full
gnome-common       libbonoboui             librsvg

 
xd2-deps:
atk  glib  gtk+  pango
 
xd2-extra:
at-poke    fontilus      ggv                   gnome-terminal    openoffice.org
at-spi     gaim          glade                 gnome-utils       vte
bug-buddy  galeon        gnome-games           libgail-gnome     xmms
eog        gconf-editor  gnome-media           libgtkhtml        yelp
evolution  gedit         gnome-system-monitor  nautilus-gtkhtml


The xd2-base/xd2* packages are the meta-packages that will install a collection of XD2 packages. xd2-base/xd2-core is the minimum installation package. It depends on just the packages within xd2-base (and obviously xd2-deps), and will install a bare-bones XD2 environment. xd2-base/xd2 is the normal installation. It will install everything in xd2-base/xd2-core, as well as a selection of packages from xd2-extras (that exact list will be determined later. It will be based on what Ximian installs in their "normal" list, and modified based on my opinion.). xd2-base/xd2-full will install everything in xd2-base and xd2-extras. That's a lot of software, so expect it to take a hefty amount of time.

More than likely I will be writing at least one or two eclasses for use with these XD2 packages. I am not sure exactly what they will do yet, but if Ximian releases only source RPMs, then I imagine some RPM extraction magic will be needed (and the best place to do something like that would be within an eclass). A lot of the package structure here depends on how Ximian's release structure is. Ideally, they'll release source tarballs, with patches in an associated diff (similar to the way Debian source packages are). I am expecting them to release source RPMs though.

~Updates~
There will not be support for Red Carpet channels (in fact, I don't think Red Carpet will even be packaged in this port. There's no point). The Gentoo XD2 port will be updated via Portage. Updates will lag behind the official channels, as I am only 1 person, and cannot dedicate 100% of my time to this. I also am not psychic and do not know exactly when security updates are released.

~Features & Nicities~
* I'd love to eventually get a Portage mirror set up, that users can sync to, and it will install the xd2 tree into either the user's Portage dir or (more likely) the PORTDIR_OVERLAY location. This will take some bandwidth and server space, so its pretty far off in the future.
* Packages in the Gentoo XD2 port that provide all the features and requirements of Vanilla GNOME packages (for example, most of the library packages), will, once installed, inject the corresponding Vanilla GNOME package, so that the user has the option of merging in packages from the Portage tree.
For example, once the xd2-base/libgnome* packages are merged, they will inject their counterparts from gnome-base/ category. This will be particularly nice with the xd2-deps/gtk+ and related packages. The user will be able to merge GTK+ applications and build them against the Ximian-patched libraries.

~Disclaimer~
The Gentoo XD2 port is in no way associated with Ximian, or endorsed by Ximian. It is not associated with Gentoo Technologies either. All the packages are unofficial, and bugs should not be filed into Gentoo's bugzilla about them. We do not need to bother the Gentoo GNOME Desktop team with XD2 issues. Until further notice, these packages should be considered unstable (although I do hope to get them to the point where they work with a completely stable Gentoo install).

-- Link Dupont

Please, no flame wars. I understand that there are some absurdities in doing this project, and that its actually value may not be worth the effort and time. I do not need to be told this sort of thing. I will continue with this project despite any hostilities that may occur, so please just don't bother. If you want to help out, that's great. I do not want to discourage ideas though. If you are interested in this, and think you have an idea for improving this, or fleshing out some of the details, or even forsee some possible problems, please post.
Much more information will be out in a week or so. Once I am out of school (in about 1 & 1/2 weeks) and XD2 is out, I will be able to plow ahead with this.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 6:58 am    Post subject: I'll help test... Reply with quote

I'll help test... I have another machine with an athlon xp 1800, 1.5G RAM, and little to do at 2am ;D
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like a good plan. I think the main audience for this project are the sysadmins who want to install Linux desktops in a company for normal (non-tweaking, non-developing) users who want stability and a nice desktop, and all that with Gentoo as distribution.

A niche market, but definitely worth the effort. I believe XD2 is excellent for use by the "normal user" in a business environment, and this project may well allow Gentoo to prove itself as very suitable for desktop-use in that situation.

Good luck :) I may well give it a try on an as yet unsuspecting Windows XP computer in dire need of a pinguin. Its users only need to browse and manage digicam photo's, so it's a suitable target me thinks.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

good to see this! can't wait for that openoffice (like everybody else here).
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

link,

this is pretty interesting with the xd2 ebuilds you are proposing to do. i was wondering if you know what packages they actually changed. if i look at reviews, i believe the only things they would have changed from the vanilla gnome 2.2 desktop would be:

- fonts (agfa they keep on saying)
- icons (they say they have 1000+ icons, i wonder how many are alread in gnome 2.2)
- printer config tool
- auto nfs/smb detection and mounting modules to nautilus
- their gtk2 theme (industrial)
- file selection dialog

and possibly their menu layouts and maybe even jimmac's xfree cursors.

so maybe its isn't as big a task as you might have though. i don't think they would have custom patches against alot of the other apps like gaim. but we'll all know when it comes out next week ;)

with rpm extraction, you could use rpm2targz or rpm2cpio. your eclass idea is not bad actually. it is probably a good idea to suggest that to bugzilla, and an implementation would be even better :) it would be useful for a number of packages that have their own custom rpm extraction code.

good luck with the xd2 ebuilds
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone looked into using the same type of installing scheme that the Gentoo kde devs do? If we could class the gnome install out (i.e. /usr/gnome/2.3.2, /usr/gnome/2.2.1, /usr/gnome/xd2.2) would the different versions co-exist peacefully?

I realize this would take some time and effort, but I'm willing to help out as much as needed...

LiquidX? Your thoughts?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am extremely interested in helping this port in any way that I can.

However, maintaining seperate packages/categories doesn't make that much sense to me when it might be feasable to add the patches to the ebuilds in the main portage tree (toggled by a "ximian" use-flag). Of course we'd have to rip the patches from the srpms/create them by hand where necessary then distribute them (the patches) ourselves.
I think that a "ximian" use-flag should also make gnome-base/gnome depend on all the stuff that Ximian has "touched" as a part of making XD2, so that the end-user with "ximian" enabled will get a full (sans Red Carpet) Ximian Desktop installation with just "emerge gnome".
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erik.swanson wrote:
I am extremely interested in helping this port in any way that I can.

However, maintaining seperate packages/categories doesn't make that much sense to me when it might be feasable to add the patches to the ebuilds in the main portage tree (toggled by a "ximian" use-flag). Of course we'd have to rip the patches from the srpms/create them by hand where necessary then distribute them (the patches) ourselves.
I think that a "ximian" use-flag should also make gnome-base/gnome depend on all the stuff that Ximian has "touched" as a part of making XD2, so that the end-user with "ximian" enabled will get a full (sans Red Carpet) Ximian Desktop installation with just "emerge gnome".


Tho I do like the idea of a ximian use flag, I think it would be better to keep em seperate to start off. The use flag would have to come in after all the patches have been tested, and I kinda doubt we would see a wholesale adoption of the patches regardless...
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just think the dependancy issues with having stuff in different categories would cause more problems (how would we do this, have blocks/provides in every ebuild?) than having use-flagged replacements for portage-tree ebuilds in PORTDIR_OVERLAY. Re testing: It's not like this port would be a good idea to unleash on the portage tree before it's tested proper via overlay anyway.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right. I'm sure that a lot of these patches will get filtered back upstream into GNOME itself eventually.

I think the USE flag idea is very interesting. But for the time being, I have to agree with Lin_Matt. At least in this early testing period, seperate ebuilds is the way to go. Many of the ebuilds will be based off the existing ebuilds in Vanilla GNOME though. So a process of "backporting" the patches into standard Portage shouldn't be too overwhelming.

As liquidx pointed out, from reviews, they appear to have changed little from the core GNOME stuff. I will be taking a look at the packages they release (come Monday), and playing around with an actual installation of XD2 on my laptop.

If a package is shipped with XD2, but not patched in any way (Gaim for example: Ximian may ship it with XD2 just to update RH9, which still ships with 0.5x), I think it might be possible to not package the Ximian distribution of it, and continue to use the base Portage package. But, all this is speculation until Monday (or more realistically Tuesday or Wednesday because their servers will be flooded).
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erik.swanson wrote:
I just think the dependancy issues with having stuff in different categories would cause more problems (how would we do this, have blocks/provides in every ebuild?) than having use-flagged replacements for portage-tree ebuilds in PORTDIR_OVERLAY. Re testing: It's not like this port would be a good idea to unleash on the portage tree before it's tested proper via overlay anyway.


Erik, could you elaborate a bit more on what you mean? I can somewhat see what you're pointing out, but I just want to make sure.
If I've understood you correctly, yes, each ebuild in its $DEPEND would have "!gnome-base/<packagename>", where gnome-base is the category the package is in.
As far as the USE flag idea goes, I think the best way to implement that would be to patch the existing gnome ebuilds with something like "use ximian && epatch ${FILESDIR}/${P}-ximian-gtk-filesel.patch". Rather than having USE flags tell portage to go use a completely seperate ebuild.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Instead of blocking, why not a seperate install directory intirely(sp)? Sorry to keep harping on this, but I'd like to be able to have different versions of gnome to play with, and I don't see any reason why we couldn't do it... ;)
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, "use ximian && epatch ${FILESDIR}/${P}-ximian-gtk-filesel.patch" is exactly what I had in mind wrt the use flag and patches, what I meant about dependancys was making the gnome-base/gnome (if "ximian" is set) depend on all things that Ximian has modified/included (fx if Ximian patched gaim, "ximian? ( >= net-im/gaim-0.61 )" would be in the gnome-base/gnome ebuild).

Here's a scenario which details what makes apprehensive about putting the XD2 ebuilds in their own categoreies:
XD2 includes a modified GTK2, so we uninstall x11-libs/gtk+ and install xd2-deps/gtk+, which includes "!x11-libs/gtk+-2*" or something. Now we want to merge net-im/gaim, which depends on ">=x11-libs/gtk+-2.0", a dependancy that cannot be satisfied because xd2-deps/gtk+ blocks it. You may wonder why I don't suggest that xd2-deps/gtk+ have PROVIDES="x11-libs/gtk+", and that is because afaik it is against policy to PROVIDE non-virtual packages.

Lin_Matt: AFAIK, KDE being installed in version-specific folders is a KDE thing, just as it is a GNOME thing to be installed all over the FS. That said, if you really want simotaneous GNOME installations you should look at how GARGNOME does it, I think they install into /opt. Because XD2 is modifications to more than just front-end applications (fx gtk+, gnome-vfs, maybe cups, and definately alot more) it may not even be possible to completely segregate it.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck in your efforts. It sounds like a pretty big project, but well worth it for many gentoo users. Thank you for your efforts 8)
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also want to wish you good luck. I can help test some ebuilds as well.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lin_Matt wrote:
Has anyone looked into using the same type of installing scheme that the Gentoo kde devs do? If we could class the gnome install out (i.e. /usr/gnome/2.3.2, /usr/gnome/2.2.1, /usr/gnome/xd2.2) would the different versions co-exist peacefully?


we've been through this before with gnome on gentoo, and we had decided at the time it was not a good idea when weighing the pros and cons.

basically, the argument is that it will introduce alot of cruft and complexity into gnome ebuilds and eclasses for relatively less advantage. when i say cruft and complexity, i mean problems with upgrading, downgrading and general pacakging problems. for instance, libraries compiling for the latest development version will not be available for the older versions.

admittedly, i haven't spent much time figuring out how much work it would take to implement such a scheme and what sort of hacks (see kde eclasses) we need to come up with to support this. one especially icky problem with gconf and bonobo-activation (.server files) when dealing with multiple parallel versions. it would be interesting if someone can come up with a comprehensive analysis of this, such as how to SLOT different library versions, make bonobo apps run on different profiles, etc.

hopefully, if everything goes to plan, we will soon have something caleld Gentoo Linux Enhancement Proposals (similar to PEPs http://www.python.org/peps/) where such proposals can be nutted out and then ultimately decided whether it is a good idea or not.

i have a quick blurb about this on my faq at http://cvs.gentoo.org/~liquidx/#faq last time someone asked about using KDE's scheme.

i'd leave this at that, because it is getting quick off-topic in regards to xd2.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erik.swanson wrote:

Lin_Matt: AFAIK, KDE being installed in version-specific folders is a KDE thing, just as it is a GNOME thing to be installed all over the FS. That said, if you really want simotaneous GNOME installations you should look at how GARGNOME does it, I think they install into /opt. Because XD2 is modifications to more than just front-end applications (fx gtk+, gnome-vfs, maybe cups, and definately alot more) it may not even be possible to completely segregate it.


I agree it may not be possible, but I know garnome and the other cvs build scripts allow for installation at any point in the fs. I've had garnome running completely from my home directory in the past. As far as the system packages (gtk, cups, etc), you can install different versions into other parts of the file system and use config flags at compile time to specify which version to compile against.

[edit]
musta been posting while liquidx was...

liquidx
Thanks for the info... Maybe I'll play with that in my spare time... ;)


Last edited by Lin_Matt on Thu Jun 05, 2003 5:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeh, just be sure to announce the ebuilds and I'll test :)
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erik.swanson wrote:
Here's a scenario which details what makes apprehensive about putting the XD2 ebuilds in their own categoreies:
XD2 includes a modified GTK2, so we uninstall x11-libs/gtk+ and install xd2-deps/gtk+, which includes "!x11-libs/gtk+-2*" or something. Now we want to merge net-im/gaim, which depends on ">=x11-libs/gtk+-2.0", a dependancy that cannot be satisfied because xd2-deps/gtk+ blocks it. You may wonder why I don't suggest that xd2-deps/gtk+ have PROVIDES="x11-libs/gtk+", and that is because afaik it is against policy to PROVIDE non-virtual packages.


Point well taken. I'd rather not deal with patching into the base GNOME though. And that sort of integration requires attention from Gentoo's official developers. I'd rather not force them to deal with issues relating to this; they've got their own packages to maintain. So for now, I think we have to work outside of the USE flag/package patching sphere. And I think it would be neat to provide a third party downloadable package (much in the way Ximian does with their supported distros).
About breaking policy: working within the bounds we have (the inability to change any core Portage pieces), breaking policy is the best option I can see right now.

And I'd still rather stay away from installing into a different prefix. A lot of what XD2 will come with is system related software, like CUPS patches and OpenOffice.org and GTK+.

I just thought of another possibility about package names. We could install them as the Portage categories (x11-libs/gtk+), etc. This will not break Portage dependencies. And at the top of every G-XD2 (Gentoo XD2) package, we will make use of an "unofficial" USE flag (ximian, or xd2 or some such). Check for that flag's existence. This might require some "magic" as an emerge world -u might blow away the G-XD2 packages. I think this is along the lines of what Erik was suggesting. Any ideas on expanding this? How might we be able to make use of a USE flag and ignore/prefer xd2 packages?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PORTDIR_OVERLAY is a convenient way of both adding new (existing) ebuilds to the tree that your portage installation sees, and a way of clobbering ebuilds that are in the official tree (what I'm suggesting).
Assuming your PORTDIR_OVERLAY is /usr/local/portage, a /usr/local/portage/x11-libs/gtk+-2.2.1.ebuild (with the Ximian patches) will take prescedence over /usr/portage/x11-libs/gtk+-2.2.1.ebuild.

As a first step we can just clobber the official ebuilds (same categories, same names) with ones that install the contents of the SRPMs (shouldn't be too hard, there might already be some mechanism or work done to wrap srpms into ebuilds with minimal work), later seperating out the improvements by Ximian into patches and merging them (use-flagged) into the official ebuilds (in our overlay) before testing them and flooding them onto the zilla. If any devs are planning on working on this I'd appreciate it if they speak up; I'd rather not duplicate work but I do want XD2 on Gentoo ASAP.

On another note, the url referenced above doesn't appear to be XD2, rather the presently-inaccessable ftp://ftp.ximian.com/pub/xd2/ seems like it is (or will be) the real deal. Has anyone tried contacting Ximian to see if we could get access to the source early for the purpose of porting it?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're going to be merging Ximian patches into gnome main as appropriate. Unfortunatly we are very close to the freeze for 2.4 so it will probably be 2.6 before a lot of the stuff makes it in.

And their openoffice stuff will be merged upstream for Openoffice 1.2 AFAIK.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I am extremely pleased to hear that the Ximian stuff will be working it's way into GNOME proper, I should have been more specific and stated that it was Gentoo devs I was interested in avoiding work-duplication with.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erik.swanson wrote:
PORTDIR_OVERLAY is a convenient way of both adding new (existing) ebuilds to the tree that your portage installation sees, and a way of clobbering ebuilds that are in the official tree (what I'm suggesting).
Assuming your PORTDIR_OVERLAY is /usr/local/portage, a /usr/local/portage/x11-libs/gtk+-2.2.1.ebuild (with the Ximian patches) will take prescedence over /usr/portage/x11-libs/gtk+-2.2.1.ebuild.

Using the overlay is pretty much a given...
erik.swanson wrote:

As a first step we can just clobber the official ebuilds (same categories, same names) with ones that install the contents of the SRPMs (shouldn't be too hard, there might already be some mechanism or work done to wrap srpms into ebuilds with minimal work), later seperating out the improvements by Ximian into patches and merging them (use-flagged) into the official ebuilds (in our overlay) before testing them and flooding them onto the zilla.

These ebuilds will have to be revision-bumped. Otherwise there will have to be a list/script posted to manually emerge each of the clobbered packges, plus any newer revision in tree would then clobber these.

Ideally, I'd love to see an 'xd2-gnome' meta-package so I just just 'emerge xd2-gnome' and voila! Course we are just a bit away from that atm... ;)
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liquidx
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Joined: 21 Aug 2002
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

erik.swanson wrote:

Assuming your PORTDIR_OVERLAY is /usr/local/portage, a /usr/local/portage/x11-libs/gtk+-2.2.1.ebuild (with the Ximian patches) will take prescedence over /usr/portage/x11-libs/gtk+-2.2.1.ebuild.


if you guys were to do that, could you please give it a revision bump rather than using the same version? otherwise it will create problems for us with bugsolving when overlay ebuilds are used. thanks.

erik.swanson wrote:
If any devs are planning on working on this I'd appreciate it if they speak up; I'd rather not duplicate work but I do want XD2 on Gentoo ASAP.


i can't say that i have the plans or the time to do this. i'm certainly interested in extracting some of their theming stuff in similar vain to redhat-artwork, but you guys will probably do it before i do, so go for it.
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iwasbiggs
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope somebody will setup a torrent link when this stuff gets released in a few days *hint hint*
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