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aleskx
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:13 pm    Post subject: Censorship Reply with quote

Split from Netiquette --pjp
klieber wrote:

We avoid censorship wherever possible. While it is certainly true that some people will be offended by pornographic links posted in OTW, I think it's equally true that as many or more people would be offended if we forbid them.


What is the purpose of moderators? Isn't it to keep the forums in some sort of "order"? There are plenty of dedicated pornographic sites on the net for those interested in them, so why not just politely say 'we don't run those here' and kindly point them somewhere else. In my humble opinion, whoever has an urge to look at (or display) people performing sexual acts has a problem and needs to seek professional help rather than be allowed and tolerated while polluting the forums in the name of political correctness and 'no censorship' policy.

Same thing with swearing. It is beyond my understanding why does someone think that swearing is freedom of speech. Swearing is an offensive demonstration of the lack of politeness and etiquette.

Or just blatantly insulting whole nations - take these signatures as examples:
a Danish guy with an opinion about Americans
Lovechild wrote:

Don't wanna be an American idiot.
One nation controlled by the media.
Information age of hysteria.
It's calling out to idiot America.
- Green day

or a Canadian with an opinion about American political system
papal_authority wrote:

The U.S.A. is a FSCKING DEMOCRACY as well as a FSCKING REPUBLIC


Why in the world would an insult to a whole country/nation be considered anything else but poor etiquette? Are there no other ways to express your opinion about a nation or disagreement with a policy without such insult? That is what I consider to be true freedom of speech - being free to express your opinion, while respecting the freedom of others - in a respectful way rather than blatantly and indiscriminately go about insulting people.

Why can't a set of 'common sense' (this is not censorship) rules be established that things like this are not welcome on the forums? How does anyone benefit from it? It is not censoring, it is common sense and good taste.
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nbrown
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aleskx wrote:

Or just blatantly insulting whole nations - take these signatures as examples:
a Danish guy with an opinion about Americans
Lovechild wrote:

Don't wanna be an American idiot.
One nation controlled by the media.
Information age of hysteria.
It's calling out to idiot America.
- Green day

or a Canadian with an opinion about American political system
papal_authority wrote:

The U.S.A. is a FSCKING DEMOCRACY as well as a FSCKING REPUBLIC



How are these insulting to the US? The first is the lyrics to a great song (admittedly it says that we Americans are controlled by the media, but I'm pretty sure it's not that far off in a lot of cases). And the second, well, I'd argue about us being a democracy (we're really a republic) and the FSCKING is a little rude, but I don't find either insulting.

-nbrown
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amne
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You already quoted
klieber wrote:
We avoid censorship wherever possible.

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aleskx
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nbrown wrote:

How are these insulting to the US?

You are answering you own question:
nbrown wrote:

admittedly it says that we Americans are controlled by the media, but I'm pretty sure it's not that far off in a lot of cases

a lot != all - why generally attach word idiot to a nation's name. besides, what (I'm guessing) mentioned verses talk about is a characteristic of western culture in general, not only American society. and, even if it was true and all Americans were idiots, why does it bother someone in Denmark
nbrown wrote:

And the second, well, I'd argue about us being a democracy (we're really a republic) and the FSCKING is a little rude, but I don't find either insulting.

anything and everything can be argued, but again, why attach profanity to any nation's name

and last but not least, you may not be offended by the above, but rest assured that many people are.
there are many far more polite and positive ways to express disagreement or point of view.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread reminds me of a quote: "Intolerance will not be tolerated." The problem with that and the reason for disagreement here seem pretty much the same.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aleskx wrote:
nbrown wrote:

How are these insulting to the US?

You are answering you own question:
nbrown wrote:

admittedly it says that we Americans are controlled by the media, but I'm pretty sure it's not that far off in a lot of cases

a lot != all - why generally attach word idiot to a nation's name. besides, what (I'm guessing) mentioned verses talk about is a characteristic of western culture in general, not only American society. and, even if it was true and all Americans were idiots, why does it bother someone in Denmark
nbrown wrote:

And the second, well, I'd argue about us being a democracy (we're really a republic) and the FSCKING is a little rude, but I don't find either insulting.

anything and everything can be argued, but again, why attach profanity to any nation's name

and last but not least, you may not be offended by the above, but rest assured that many people are.
there are many far more polite and positive ways to express disagreement or point of view.


In all due fairness, there called "quotes" for a reason. Lovechild didnt call anyone an idiot, Green Day did. They are lyrics from a song.

As for profanity, arent you being a bit dramatic? Perhaps not everyone shares your zeal for patriotism.

"Canada is the greatest FSCKING place to live!" doesnt really bring negative images to my mind about Canada. The profanity only emphasizes the fact that Canada is the greatest place to live, just like the quote in question only emphasizes democracy and republic. Now if he said "The FSCKING USA", then you might have an argument but as it stands, there isnt really much weight to your gripe here.

The pornography, well I personally dont agree with allowing such posts but whatever. I like the fact we are given the choice to act like adults or children...and I have to see a problem with it. All to often we are discouraged from behaving properly by rules. This place assumes you have the decency within yourself to behave in such manners, without the need for rules...

I guess thats the way I look at it. What spurred this might I add? Did you find some inappropriate posts on this board or are you just trying to make waves for no apparent reason?
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nbrown
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I agree that profanity can be offensive to some but I don't see what the difference is when it's attached to nation versus when someone says it in any other manner. So I guess I'm a little confused about your argument. If it's just that profanity shouldn't be here, I can understand it. If it's about profanity being attached to a nation/nationality, I'm a little lost about your point.

I strongly disagree with you about the song, and the reason is that I interpret the lyrics differently than you do, but I don't really want to get in a semantics argument since Billy Joe Armstrong (of course I just made the assumption he wrote it which could be way off base) is the only who can say what he really means and I doubt he'll read or post here. And as to why it bothers someone in Denmark, ask Lovechild if you really care to because I won't put words in his mouth. Personally I find the song really catchy and various parts of it have been my away message (and other parts of the album too).

As far as many people being offended by this, it seems you are the only one so far. The profanity has been brought up before and some find it offensive but the admins choose not to ban it. I'd personally be fine either way; I personally choose not to use it here.

Anyways, thanks for a pleasant debate. As long as it stays this way I'd actually enjoy continuing this conversation.

-nbrown
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:19 am    Post subject: Re: Censorship Reply with quote

aleskx wrote:
Split from Netiquette --pjp
klieber wrote:

We avoid censorship wherever possible. While it is certainly true that some people will be offended by pornographic links posted in OTW, I think it's equally true that as many or more people would be offended if we forbid them.


What is the purpose of moderators? Isn't it to keep the forums in some sort of "order"? There are plenty of dedicated pornographic sites on the net for those interested in them, so why not just politely say 'we don't run those here' and kindly point them somewhere else. In my humble opinion, whoever has an urge to look at (or display) people performing sexual acts has a problem and needs to seek professional help rather than be allowed and tolerated while polluting the forums in the name of political correctness and 'no censorship' policy.

Same thing with swearing. It is beyond my understanding why does someone think that swearing is freedom of speech. Swearing is an offensive demonstration of the lack of politeness and etiquette.

Or just blatantly insulting whole nations - take these signatures as examples:
a Danish guy with an opinion about Americans
Lovechild wrote:

Don't wanna be an American idiot.
One nation controlled by the media.
Information age of hysteria.
It's calling out to idiot America.
- Green day

or a Canadian with an opinion about American political system
papal_authority wrote:

The U.S.A. is a FSCKING DEMOCRACY as well as a FSCKING REPUBLIC


Why in the world would an insult to a whole country/nation be considered anything else but poor etiquette? Are there no other ways to express your opinion about a nation or disagreement with a policy without such insult? That is what I consider to be true freedom of speech - being free to express your opinion, while respecting the freedom of others - in a respectful way rather than blatantly and indiscriminately go about insulting people.

Why can't a set of 'common sense' (this is not censorship) rules be established that things like this are not welcome on the forums? How does anyone benefit from it? It is not censoring, it is common sense and good taste.


If you feel the need for such a sterile enviroment where your own particular views on good taste and common sense are to be strictly adhered to, start your own forums.
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aleskx
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lokheed wrote:

I guess thats the way I look at it. What spurred this might I add? Did you find some inappropriate posts on this board or are you just trying to make waves for no apparent reason?


There was a British guy on one of the forums complaining how he wants to introduce his teenage nephews to Gentoo, but is hesitant because of some objectionable content (swearing and porn links).
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aleskx
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:45 am    Post subject: Re: Censorship Reply with quote

Corky wrote:

If you feel the need for such a sterile enviroment where your own particular views on good taste and common sense are to be strictly adhered to, start your own forums.


I'm not making this up - take a look at these rules:

http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?t=71

If someone takes time to write them, should we not respect that?[/url]
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nbrown
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:06 am    Post subject: Re: Censorship Reply with quote

aleskx wrote:
Corky wrote:

If you feel the need for such a sterile enviroment where your own particular views on good taste and common sense are to be strictly adhered to, start your own forums.


I'm not making this up - take a look at these rules:

http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?t=71

If someone takes time to write them, should we not respect that?[/url]


I had completely forgotten that no swearing was actually in writing somewhere. That gives more weight to your problem. You should probably ask pjp or someone else high up about the enforcement of these "guidelines." Guidelines to me means something different than rules and so perhaps they are not enforced and just suggested, but it's worth asking.

-nbrown
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't believe it really exists people this uptight.
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ponds
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

write about it on your livejournal
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

n00b point of view:

I've never been offended by any post (I'm quite used to friendly swearing and I'm trying to get used to making sex :wink: ).
Anyway when I'm, eg, with my parents I don't swear (and surely i don't try to make sex :wink: ). Its'just a "social guideline" that I don't feel obliged to follow but I know that they would be annoyed should I start swearing (or...). I choose to limit my freedom of speech in order to have a better "family attitude". When I'm with them I try to behave in the best way to avoid spoiling the time toghether. The same goes in other social environments and i've never felt fettered.

I don't believe that being in a internet forum is much different.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: Censorship Reply with quote

aleskx wrote:
Or just blatantly insulting whole nations - take these signatures as examples:
a Danish guy with an opinion about Americans
Lovechild wrote:

Don't wanna be an American idiot.
One nation controlled by the media.
Information age of hysteria.
It's calling out to idiot America.
- Green day


Tsk tsk tsk. Is it impolite to quote verses from songs, now? Especially given that Green Day are an American band?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never expected a silly topic like this here :P
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it amusing that the president of said country insulted a couple of countries by saying they were evil (as a whole) and putting them in the axes of EVIL and now we get excited over some song lyrics which as the poster himself said are largely true.
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aleskx
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Censorship Reply with quote

nbrown wrote:
Guidelines to me means something different than rules and so perhaps they are not enforced and just suggested, but it's worth asking.

I am not proposing enforcement, I am talking about common sense. Everyone knows what is polite and decent behavior and what is not.
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aleskx
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Censorship Reply with quote

Brother Dysk wrote:

Tsk tsk tsk. Is it impolite to quote verses from songs, now? Especially given that Green Day are an American band?

So what if they are American? What kind of argument is that? Charles Manson is american, too.
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aleskx
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackEdder wrote:
I find it amusing that the president of said country insulted a couple of countries by saying they were evil (as a whole) and putting them in the axes of EVIL

So, that justifies tagging all Americans as idiots?
BlackEdder wrote:

and now we get excited over some song lyrics which as the poster himself said are largely true.

I said they are largely true for the whole western society. Media does have huge influence on people, there is no doubt about it. But it is not specifically American thing.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aleskx wrote:
BlackEdder wrote:
I find it amusing that the president of said country insulted a couple of countries by saying they were evil (as a whole) and putting them in the axes of EVIL

So, that justifies tagging all Americans as idiots?


Now you're just putting words into my mouth. Basically I said/meant that I found it amusing that we got excited over this stuff on a harmless forum, while one of the world leaders does the same thing.

[EDIT] Ow and I pointed out that ironically this world leader is the leader of the country that was supposedly insulted in the example[/edit]
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aleskx
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackEdder wrote:

Basically I said/meant that I found it amusing that we got excited over this stuff on a harmless forum, while one of the world leaders does the same thing.

Ok, I accept your disclaimer.
On the other side, are you not taking things out of context when it comes to Bush? I'm not his interprerter nor do I approve everything he says or does, but didn't he speak about totalitarian regimes with clearly malicious intentions rather than about the respective nations?
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aleskx
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackEdder wrote:

[EDIT] Ow and I pointed out that ironically this world leader is the leader of the country that was supposedly insulted in the example[/edit]

It's not the country that is insulted, it's people. It's like pointing out to an individual or a group of people and say "you are idiots". I find it offensive.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aleskx wrote:
...


I think starting with a on-line forum seems to be a bit ...backwards.. maybe?

If you see these things as a problem, I suggest you start doing something were it has a real impact, namely US media.

Erik
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Censorship Reply with quote

nbrown wrote:
aleskx wrote:
Corky wrote:

If you feel the need for such a sterile enviroment where your own particular views on good taste and common sense are to be strictly adhered to, start your own forums.


I'm not making this up - take a look at these rules:

http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?t=71

If someone takes time to write them, should we not respect that?[/url]


I had completely forgotten that no swearing was actually in writing somewhere. That gives more weight to your problem. You should probably ask pjp or someone else high up about the enforcement of these "guidelines." Guidelines to me means something different than rules and so perhaps they are not enforced and just suggested, but it's worth asking.

-nbrown

My take on the use of swearing in any type of forum:

If you have to resort to the use of swear words to convey your point, then that just means you don't have the intelligence to find a better way of expressing your thoughts, and probably shouldn't be weighing in on the subject at hand in the first place.

And to say that these are "guidelines" is just splitting hairs. The whole tone of the netiquette post shows that at one time the moderators actually expected posters to abide by the guidelines.
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