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Stormy Eyes
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:56 am    Post subject: Stormy Eyes vs. The World. >^..^< Reply with quote

Or you could strip the government of unconstitutional functions, repeal the 16th Amendment, abolish income taxes and replace them with a consumption tax, and let people decide for themselves how to spend their own money. If they want to donate to organizations that educate people outside the country, great! But leave the decision in the individual's hands, where by right it belongs.

Last edited by Stormy Eyes on Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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hena
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormy Eyes wrote:
Or you could strip the government of unconstitutional functions, repeal the 16th Amendment, abolish income taxes and replace them with a consumption tax, and let people decide for themselves how to spend their own money. If they want to donate to organizations that educate people outside the country, great! But leave the decision in the individual's hands, where by right it belongs.

Somehow I wouldn't go for that. Perhaps my view of the people are not that good :).
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Stormy Eyes
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hena wrote:
Somehow I wouldn't go for that. Perhaps my view of the people are not that good :).


Neither are mine, but I'd rather not let my misanthropy overrule my principles.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hena wrote:
Stormy Eyes wrote:
Or you could strip the government of unconstitutional functions, repeal the 16th Amendment, abolish income taxes and replace them with a consumption tax, and let people decide for themselves how to spend their own money. If they want to donate to organizations that educate people outside the country, great! But leave the decision in the individual's hands, where by right it belongs.

Somehow I wouldn't go for that. Perhaps my view of the people are not that good :).


The reason I think most people would agree with you is because, deep down, everyone wants to blame problems on someone else instead of doing something about it. If people were forced to truly take part in a democratic system, where the government had just enough power to keep the country running smoothly and equally for all, and the people themselves had to decide whether or not to help out another country...somehow I doubt that America would be jumping into foreign affairs so quickly.

On the other hand, I'd love such a system, because then I'd know that the amount of money I'd shrug and write a check for would actually be used in the proper way, instead of the rather nebulous way congresspeople and senators "speak" for the American people now.
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormy Eyes wrote:
Or you could strip the government of unconstitutional functions, repeal the 16th Amendment, abolish income taxes and replace them with a consumption tax, and let people decide for themselves how to spend their own money. If they want to donate to organizations that educate people outside the country, great! But leave the decision in the individual's hands, where by right it belongs.


But would you do it Knowing that it would mean that you would pay less in taxes....? Or do you not need a selfish reason like me?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
But would you do it Knowing that it would mean that you would pay less in taxes....? Or do you not need a selfish reason like me?


I always have a selfish reason -- even if it's just being true to the principles I've adopted.
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hena
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stormcrowley wrote:
The reason I think most people would agree with you is because, deep down, everyone wants to blame problems on someone else instead of doing something about it. If people were forced to truly take part in a democratic system, where the government had just enough power to keep the country running smoothly and equally for all, and the people themselves had to decide whether or not to help out another country...somehow I doubt that America would be jumping into foreign affairs so quickly.

On the other hand, I'd love such a system, because then I'd know that the amount of money I'd shrug and write a check for would actually be used in the proper way, instead of the rather nebulous way congresspeople and senators "speak" for the American people now.

I wouldn't like, since I think people are greedy and stupid. Individuals are different (they can be anything). However, large amount of individuals can be molded to work as people and are then counted as greedy and stupid.

Also its about morality and social equality. Now this then changes a lot between cultures (not only with broad ranges as western <-> eastern, but like US <-> Finland as well) and individuals. To some extent I don't think most people are ready to handle this bit properly. As example is greed and how that is intrepreted. Also I fail to some extent myself, so I would not trust others to well either. Unfortunately current system isn't very good, but it is better than if left to individuals. Then again, perhaps I'm wrong and everyone else is right. These kind of discussions should be done with a cider in hand in some nice quietish (is that word right?) pub :).
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormy Eyes wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
But would you do it Knowing that it would mean that you would pay less in taxes....? Or do you not need a selfish reason like me?


I always have a selfish reason -- even if it's just being true to the principles I've adopted.


The that is a problem that you must get over, getting some more humane principles would help for a start...

here would brobably be a good place to start, have a small read and tell me if you agree with him
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
The that is a problem that you must get over, getting some more humane principles would help for a start...


My principles are "inhumane"? Do you even know my principles? Let me outline them for you in plain American English:

  • The individual has absolute ownership of his own life, mind, and body. He is sovereign.
  • Because an individual owns himself, he has the right to do as he will as long as he does not act to violate another individual's sovereignty.
  • No individual has the right to coerce another individual.
  • No group of individuals may coerce another individual.
  • Because the individual is sovereign by virtue of self-ownership, no one individual has the right to use another as a tool or a means to an end.
  • Noble ends do not justify immoral methods.
  • Reason and logic are the individual's primary means of survival.
  • A person should act on the facts available to him, and revise his conclusions as new facts become available.
  • Each person is responsible for himself, and must earn his survival, his education, and his good health. All good things in life, from survival to love, are earned.
  • If one can afford it, there is pride to be had in helping another who is struggling to better himself. However, it is dangerous to let others depend on your generosity.
  • Pride is a virtue. Without pride, there is no ambition. Without ambition, one does not improve oneself.
  • Avoid excesses. An imbalanced mind is blind to reason and easily manipulated.
  • Accord to others the rights you claim for yourself.


Don't blame Ayn Rand for these principles; I deduced many of them on my own long before I read Rand and Aristotle and Nietzsche.

cokehabit wrote:
here would brobably be a good place to start, have a small read and tell me if you agree with him


I do not agree with Mill; I think he is operating from the wrong principles and that his defense of liberty on utilitarian grounds is flawed.
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i agree with most of your principles but i feel some are too simplistic for the complicated lives we lead today

Stormy Eyes wrote:
I do not agree with Mill; I think he is operating from the wrong principles and that his defense of liberty on utilitarian grounds is flawed.


Well most of what you have quoted there were his views. I get the feeling that instead of disagreeing with Mill, you disagree with Utilitarian principles as a whole (correct me if i am wrong).
JS Mill wrote:
the fact of living in society renders it indispensable that each should be bound to observe a certain line of conduct towards the rest. This conduct consists first, in not injuring the interests of one another; or rather certain interests, which, either by express legal provision or by tacit understanding, ought to be considered as rights

I think you would agree with that wholeheartedly

and this:
JS Mill wrote:
As soon as any part of a person's conduct affects prejudicially the interests of others, society has jurisdiction over it, and the question whether the general welfare will or will not be promoted by interfering with it, becomes open to discussion. But there is no room for entertaining any such question when a person's conduct affects the interests of no persons besides himself, or needs not affect them

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, now you two have hijacked this thread (the subject of which was the fiscal responsibility of war) and the creepy boyfriend pillow thread to talk about Stormy's worldview. Seriously, you guys need to stick to one or two threads tops and let others' stay on topic. I'm gonna split this.
(split from The Cost of War).
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, dammit. I posted on the other thread before I saw this ;-) Um, I'll rephrase. My misanthropy has to overwhelm my principles, for the time being.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalisphoenix wrote:
Oh, dammit. I posted on the other thread before I saw this ;-) Um, I'll rephrase. My misanthropy has to overwhelm my principles, for the time being.


And people think I need help? At least I don't let my feelings overrule my reason. >^..^<
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you never answered if you agree with my JS Mill quotes
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Cold is gods way to tell us to burn more Catholics
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
you never answered if you agree with my JS Mill quotes


I don't, because I don't agree with utilitarianism. All his arguments are based on utilitarianism, and if the principles are wrong, how can the conclusions not be wrong as well? Garbage in, garbage out.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
i agree with most of your principles but i feel some are too simplistic for the complicated lives we lead today


Which ones? And who says my life is complicated?
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kalisphoenix
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormy Eyes wrote:
kalisphoenix wrote:
Oh, dammit. I posted on the other thread before I saw this ;-) Um, I'll rephrase. My misanthropy has to overwhelm my principles, for the time being.


And people think I need help? At least I don't let my feelings overrule my reason. >^..^<


If you ask me, I'd say that it's far more reasonable to be misanthropic than adhere to principle. Considering you've mentioned stabbing me for being a Socialist, I would have thought you'd agree that the best way to assure my continued health would be to avoid being a pundit ;-)
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalisphoenix wrote:
If you ask me, I'd say that it's far more reasonable to be misanthropic than adhere to principle. Considering you've mentioned stabbing me for being a Socialist, I would have thought you'd agree that the best way to assure my continued health would be to avoid being a pundit ;-)


Yeah, I had a hard fuckin' day at work when I said that. But just because I said it doesn't mean I'd do it. Initiation of force and all that, and if I did draw my knife first I'd be turning my back on principle.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:49 pm    Post subject: Principles... Reply with quote

StormyEyes, I agree with what I think your concept is - Self Government, free of unneccesary intervention. However, some of your principles might need to be rethought.

For example:

Quote:

* No individual has the right to coerce another individual.
* No group of individuals may coerce another individual.
* Because the individual is sovereign by virtue of self-ownership, no one individual has the right to use another as a tool or a means to an end.



How would you difine coersion? or being used as a tool?


(Yeah, I know, low post count :oops: )
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ahhhh Stormy, so you dont believe that we should be "bound to observe a certain line of conduct towards others"? or that we should not interfere with another person when it does not affect us or society?

It seems that these are rules that you live your life by... Also these are the rules that society is based upon and that our laws are based upon. You live in and with them every day.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormy Eyes wrote:
Yeah, I had a hard fuckin' day at work when I said that. But just because I said it doesn't mean I'd do it. Initiation of force and all that, and if I did draw my knife first I'd be turning my back on principle.


No worries. The nice thing about forums is that you can get royally pissed off at someone without having to see them in person and drink heavily just to keep from cutting their head off with a butterknife. ;-)
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormy Eyes wrote:
if the principles are wrong, how can the conclusions not be wrong as well?

Surely it's still possible to agree with a conclusion, just not the logic used to arrive at said conclusion?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

papal_authority wrote:
Surely it's still possible to agree with a conclusion, just not the logic used to arrive at said conclusion?


I don't think it's a good idea. Garbage in, garbage out -- remember?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
ahhhh Stormy, so you dont believe that we should be "bound to observe a certain line of conduct towards others"? or that we should not interfere with another person when it does not affect us or society?


Bound by what? Our self-interest? God? Santa Claus? Society? The government? As I understand it, reason suggests that if I want to be free, then I must allow others to be free as well. If I want to own my life, then I must act as though others own theirs. I must not harm others if I do not wish to be harmed myself. But harming society? Fuck society.

There is no society without individuals. I'll tattoo it into your forehead if I have to.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormy Eyes,

I'm curious, what happens under your principles to those who are unlucky (or even plain lazy)? Do we simply let them starve to death on the streets?

Am I being stupid, have I missed something?
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