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Is breakmygentoo a linux distribution in its own right?
No - same as apt repositories/package collections are not distributions.
80%
 80%  [ 55 ]
Yes - same as gentoo or debian or redhat are distributions.
5%
 5%  [ 4 ]
Undecided - I'm like sweden, I'm neutral and like good chocolate.
13%
 13%  [ 9 ]
Total Votes : 68

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Hackeron
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:22 am    Post subject: Is breakmygentoo a linux distribution in its own right? Reply with quote

Summary of all posts.

Reason why Breakmygentoo cannot be called a distribution:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
1) It does not provide any means of installing a complete system.
2) It depends on a linux distribution to function
3) It doesnt include any of the following: install documentation, install medium, packaging system, any information about it being a distribution, complete core base or any means of installation.[1]*
4) #breakmygentoo agree they are not a distribution.
5) You cannot install breakmygentoo on an empty hard drive.
6) Breakmygentoo is no more than a good bleeding-edge collection of ebuilds.
7) Breakmygentoo is absolutely useless without gentoo.
8 ) Breakmygentoo even has gentoo in the name.[2]*
9) Linux refers to the kernel, Distribution refers to a method of distributing it with a complete system, BMG doesnt distributes a complete system, nor does it exmplains how to create a complete system from what it does provide.
10) A honda with a sony player is not a sony car.
11) Jesus fucking christ!, Its not a damn distro![3]*

[1] These all add up, they shouldn't be looked at separately as you can find some anomalies to the formula, the basic rule is a means of having a full working unix-like system using the linux kernel. Which is not possible with breakmygentoo
[2] "Gnu's not Unix" has unix in the name, therefore it is unix?
--- "Gnu's not Unix" has "not Unix" in the name, there for it is not unix. 1 word out of context is just wrong, gentoo in breakmygentoo is very much in context.
[3] Heh, thats whats going on in my head, but keep down the swearing.


Reasons why Breakmygentoo can be called a distribution:
------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Distributions can work without most of what is mentioned above. Only 1 of the following must be supplied: install documentation, install medium, complete base system.[1]*
2) Gentoo is nothing more than a collection of ebuilds and installation instructions, so BMG can also be called a distro.[1]*
3) Gentoo is nothing more than portage with ebuilds, BMG is ebuilds and they at one point had their own portage.[2]*
4) If BMG had their own version of portage they would be a distribution in their own right.[2]*
5) Gentoo cannot stand without linux and core packages, BMG cannot stand without gentoo. So [ Gentoo + linux + corepkg = Linux Distro ] == [ BMG + Gentoo == Linux Distro] ... therefore [ BMG = Linux Distro ] [3]*
6) There is no liveCD for SPARC32 PCI and Mips although they are supported by gentoo.[4]*
7) A honda with a ford engine is not a honda. [5]*
8 ) Using the logic above cygwin isnt a distro either. (and dont say because wine isnt a distro, cygwin is closer to vmware) [6]*


[1] Unfortunately breakmygentoo doesnt have either of that, and I'm really lost how it can be concidered a distribution. Please comment. They do have some base system packages, but they are by no means complete. They also have no installation instructions.
[2] Ofcourse portage on its own does not make a distro, as you can install portage as an addition to many distros these days. A mandrake with portage wont automatically be a gentoo.
[3] I'll leave this one for you to think about :) (read: http://klausler.com/fallacies.html)
[4] No, but there are stages and documentation, and personal first hand support. It can be installed and the support is given, a distribution lacking one of the things mentioned above does not change the definition of of a "complete unix-like system with the linux kernel".
[5] Agree!, But its not a ford either!, irrelevent argument, see fallacious arguments.
[6] Vmware is a distro? And no cygwin doesnt provide a linux kernel (or make you install linux, as in the kernel, during installation procedure.


=====================
TOTALLY UNRELATED POINTS
=====================
1) Breakmygentoo gives gentoo a bad name
2) A gentoo installation that uses breakmygentoo shouldn't be called gentoo
3) It is legal to use gentoo to make a knoppix clone as long as you dont provide some packages like mplayer codecs, and leave it to the user to emerge though.
4) Gentoo's proffit like entity is only there to pay to keep the site, repositores and bugzilla running. Whatever other minimal proffits are kept by the admin for his hard work.
5) Breakmygentoo is closely connected to Gentoo, it even has its tools on the official portage repository. (emerge gentoolkit-dev)
6) Hackeron is a troll [1]*
7) You can almost never change someone's views with a forum post [2]*

[1] - heh, thanks guys :), nice to see you siding with a dev blindly. Yes, I am greatful for his work, that doesnt make the dev an untouchable god.
[2] - how true, how true. But you can prove a thing or two, to yourself. And I've proved more than a thing or two to myself ;)


Last edited by Hackeron on Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:21 pm; edited 38 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The op was only partially right. Breakmygentoo is a distro by itself. But then again, what is a distro other than a few set of ebuilds, and some instructions on how to install stuff? I mean, gentoo is nothing more than an ingenious portage software, ebuilds to run it, instructions on how to install stuff, and some very talented people willing to support you when you fsck something up.

...This should be in Gentoo Chat, or even off the Wall.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved from Installing Gentoo.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
Moved from Installing Gentoo.

I honestly wonder what people think before posting stuff :roll:
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

madmango wrote:
The op was only partially right. Breakmygentoo is a distro by itself. But then again, what is a distro other than a few set of ebuilds, and some instructions on how to install stuff? I mean, gentoo is nothing more than an ingenious portage software, ebuilds to run it, instructions on how to install stuff, and some very talented people willing to support you when you fsck something up.

...This should be in Gentoo Chat, or even off the Wall.

BMG is not a distro by itself, it's just a collection of really bleeding edge ebuilds.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm saying that a collection of ebuilds, plus a portage sytem, is a distro.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

madmango wrote:
I'm saying that a collection of ebuilds, plus a portage sytem, is a distro.


I have to agree ... it could be called a distro
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

madmango wrote:
I'm saying that a collection of ebuilds, plus a portage sytem, is a distro.


Heh, I admire your dedication to make an op seem less stupid. Doesnt quite work, give up ;)

slyde wrote:
I honestly wonder what people think before posting stuff


If you would read the post, you would know why I posted it on "Installing Gentoo". I was told to by that op.

Someone should really re-think the op list on #gentoo :)

I'm still looking for an answer to the initial question I asked though before getting into this stupid argument :(.. Are there any legal difficulties that stop people from releasing distributions like knoppix, only based on gentoo?


PS: for the record, everyone on #debian agreed with me, just like the apt repository for mplayer/lame/ffmpeg/xvid/dts/w32codecs and whatever else they put on it these days isnt a distribution, BMG isnt a distribution. Only difference is BMG isnt even a repository!

Gentoo however is a distribution. They have a working system with everything you need to get it to work, whether it is borrowed or not. While BMG just supply small additions to that working system. Just like independent package repositories made for redhat using apt4rpm, and the independent package repositories made for SuSE to give extra packages and make things easier. Just BMG is too incompetent to run a repository.

I invite you to visit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_distribution -- and please review your definition of a distribution. This is getting out of hand.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hackeron wrote:
Are there any legal difficulties that stop people from releasing distributions like knoppix, only based on gentoo?


The GPL is designed to let people use apps that are gpl'ed not to prevent them from doing it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

isnogood wrote:
Hackeron wrote:
Are there any legal difficulties that stop people from releasing distributions like knoppix, only based on gentoo?


The GPL is designed to let people use apps that are gpl'ed not to prevent them from doing it.


Ok, so all gentoo additions are GPL'd? I was under the impression that because of their commercial entity they have some non GPL code or other legal issues that stop people from using it in a commercial setting.

Like you recieve all the additional mplayer codecs where all distributions otherwise cannot legally supply them, how does that work?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Watchoo wrote:
madmango wrote:
I'm saying that a collection of ebuilds, plus a portage sytem, is a distro.


I have to agree ... it could be called a distro

:roll:

I'd like to see you install breakmygentoo on a blank hard disk.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMG is not a distro in itself, BMG provides ebuilds for programs that are not suitable for inclusion in Portage at the present - stuff like GNOME development ebuilds.

anyways the quick guide

emerge gentoolkit-dev
gensync -l
then follow the white rabbit, in terms of creating overlay dirs and configuring them in make.conf.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

madmango wrote:
I'm saying that a collection of ebuilds, plus a portage sytem, is a distro.


Where is the portage system on BMG?

Or are you saying BMG is not a distro?

@Hackeron

Gentoo is not a comercial entity, it is a volenteer run entity, run not for profit.

Why would gentoo devs want to stop people using gentoo as a base for other distro's? As long as they don't come crying to the devs for support that is.

If the ebuilds are not on an open licence, how come users are alowed to alter them (with portage overlays the ability to play with ebuilds is *specifically* included) and submit them as enhancement request bugs?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More importantly why has Breakmygentoo got better stuff in there shop than us (Gentoo)?

(When first started using Gentoo there was some great stuff, I went the other day to buy some stuff to contribute funds and all there was, was a T-Shirt ?)
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nevynxxx wrote:

Gentoo is not a comercial entity, it is a volenteer run entity, run not for profit.

Why would gentoo devs want to stop people using gentoo as a base for other distro's? As long as they don't come crying to the devs for support that is.

If the ebuilds are not on an open licence, how come users are alowed to alter them (with portage overlays the ability to play with ebuilds is *specifically* included) and submit them as enhancement request bugs?


Ah ok, I guess I was diselusioned by all those adverts, the store, the partnership with win4lin, the merchendise, etc. And by what everyone on #debian was telling me :), Would be nice to know where all the money goes though.

Other than that, things like w32codecs that are on portage cannot make a distribution based on gentoo illegal to supply preconfigured? (as long as the codecs arent installed by default).. what if they are installed by default?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hackeron wrote:
nevynxxx wrote:

Gentoo is not a comercial entity, it is a volenteer run entity, run not for profit.

Why would gentoo devs want to stop people using gentoo as a base for other distro's? As long as they don't come crying to the devs for support that is.

If the ebuilds are not on an open licence, how come users are alowed to alter them (with portage overlays the ability to play with ebuilds is *specifically* included) and submit them as enhancement request bugs?


Ah ok, I guess I was diselusioned by all those adverts, the store, the partnership with win4lin, the merchendise, etc. And by what everyone on #debian was telling me :), Would be nice to know where all the money goes though.

Other than that, things like w32codecs that are on portage cannot make a distribution based on gentoo illegal to supply preconfigured? (as long as the codecs arent installed by default).. what if they are installed by default?


The ads and partnerships go to help keep the forums and main site running, as well as the main rsync server and the distfiles server (emerge something like vanilla-sources or rox, and notice where it was downloaded from). That takes a lot of bandwidth, server power, and money.

Nothing is installed by default in a Gentoo installation.

@ nyteryda

Yeah, that's somewhat annoying...maybe because of being Not for Profit? IANAL.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lews_Therin wrote:
Nothing is installed by default in a Gentoo installation.


Which is why I'm asking. If say you, me, or anyone makes a knoppix clone using gentoo. They DO have things emerged by default.

So then the distribution becomes illegal to release? To what extend is it legally a problem? only if mplayer codecs and other code that isnt available for commercial use? or does the fact that its on portage already makes it illegal for a binary distro based on gentoo with portage?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hackeron wrote:
Lews_Therin wrote:
Nothing is installed by default in a Gentoo installation.


Which is why I'm asking. If say you, me, or anyone makes a knoppix clone using gentoo. They DO have things emerged by default.

So then the distribution becomes illegal to release? To what extend is it legally a problem? only if mplayer codecs and other code that isnt available for commercial use? or does the fact that its on portage already makes it illegal for a binary distro based on gentoo with portage?


If somebody makes a Knoppix clone based on Gentoo, they might simply choose not to include win32codec support and avoid any legal entanglements. I know that I get along just fine without it on an amd64 box (where win32 codecs cannot be emerged).
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually I did a search on the shop of breakmygentoo and it sells all the old gentoo stuff i remeber (like the cup in the picture on gentoo.org), its a third party shop, so i assume the "new" gentoo shop must be gentoos actual own...


Still leaves me wondering if i buy that long-sleve gentoo T-Shirt and/or a hood top is gentoo still getting money ?

The Thirdparty's shops gentoo stuff ....
http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/browse/?y=0&N=4294878550&Ntk=All&nr=1&Nao=1&x=0
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listen, people, Breakmygentoo is not by any means a distro. It's a collection of beta bleeding-edge ebuilds for use on a Gentoo system, nothing more.

- Simon
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cossins wrote:
Listen, people, Breakmygentoo is not by any means a distro. It's a collection of beta bleeding-edge ebuilds for use on a Gentoo system, nothing more.


Cossins is right. breakmygentoo is abso-friggin'-lutely useless without Gentoo; but as an addition to Gentoo it rocks like ninja; I especially like the development version of Evolution.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nevynxxx wrote:
madmango wrote:
I'm saying that a collection of ebuilds, plus a portage sytem, is a distro.


Where is the portage system on BMG?

Or are you saying BMG is not a distro?



It seems people are mistinterpreting me. I'm saying that BMG is not a distro unless you add gentoo's portage. Which rocks.

BMG is a collection of bleeding edge ebuilds. With portage, it's a distro. Because bmg imho does not have a portage of their own, they can't be called a distro.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

madmango wrote:

BMG is a collection of bleeding edge ebuilds. With portage, it's a distro.
And that distro is called Gentoo.

End of story.
The op was wrong.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:33 pm    Post subject: hackeron, desist your besmirchment Reply with quote

Eh, you're all getting totally the wrong idea. Stop misrepresenting my arguments please. If you must go around sticking words in my mouth, at least have the decency to let me know so that I can respond in person.

The question in question was whether or not there were any Gentoo-based distributions. My claim is that iff (look it up, and don't even think about replying until you understand) Gentoo is a distribution, then BMG qualifies.

To dispell some of the FUD that's flying around:

1) Mandrake does not have its own package manager. It uses RedHat's. Does that mean that Mandrake is not a distribution? BMG *has* at various points had an alternative package manager to portage. Therefore, the claim that BMG is not a distribution because it does not have its own package manager is invalid.

2) BMG can't stand alone without Gentoo. Gentoo can't stand alone without lots of other stuff out there on the net. Note that Gentoo does not provide a complete system available off Gentoo-hosted infrastructure for most supported archs. Some distributions, such as LFS, do not provide anything along the lines of core packages. Therefore, the claim that BMG has outside dependencies and is hence not a distribution is invalid.

3) BMG does not provide any official install medium (at least, it didn't last time I looked...). Neither does Gentoo for certain supported platforms. Some distributions, such as LFS, do not provide install media at all. The claim that BMG does not provide install media and is therefore not a distribution is invalid.

4) Gentoo's important component is the ebuilds, not portage. Gentoo existed before portage. Gentoo does not require portage to run.

5) gentoo- kernels are not available on all Gentoo-supported archs.

Now, why is BMG in effect a seperate distribution, rather than just a bunch of ebuilds? Note that I am not claiming that every random collection of ebuilds is a seperate distribution. Note to hackeron: (a => b) !=> (b => a), and if anyone doesn't understand that, don't reply either.

1) This is the big one right here --> They provide (sometimes) a seperate set of critical toolchain packages (gcc, glibc etc). Systems built upon these cannot be considered to be Gentoo. The toolchain is an extremely important part of the distribution. If you use out of tree toolchain stuff, you are most definitely not using Gentoo. You won't get support via our bugzilla, you won't get support via our mailing lists, you won't get support in the official irc channels.

2) BMG (sometimes) provide a seperate set of ebuilds for certain packages (for example, Gnome) which are highly visible to a lot of end users. Any errors in these must not be taken to reflect upon Gentoo's reputation.

3) There is a certain degree of quality and reliability expected from anything provided by Gentoo. It has been consistently shown that BMG ebuilds do not provide this. Treating BMG as "Gentoo with Extras" is a slur upon all the hard work done by the Gentoo development team.

4) BMG do not just add to Gentoo. They replace parts certain very important parts of it.

Now, if you don't want to call BMG a distribution, fair enough. We're entering the grounds of linguistic metawankery on that. BMG provides a collection of tools to be used alongside a Linux kernel, so it is a Linux distribution in the liberal sense. Be warned that any attempt to provide a stricter definition for 'distribution' will almost certainly disqualify Gentoo and LFS as distributions as well, so you hit my initial 'iff' clause. In particular, remember to consider MIPS and PCI SPARC32 kit in your response if you think you've found a definition by which Gentoo qualifies and BMG does not.

However, BMG is most definitely not Gentoo, and any system tainted with BMG must not be considered to be "Gentoo with a few extras". Anybody calling BMG Gentoo is being massively disrespectful and wasting serious amounts of developer time.

Sidenote. Ok. As is customary, I expect a certain vocal minority to start flaming me here for implying that their beloved crap might be slightly less than perfect. You'll note that I am not telling you to not use it. By all means, use it on test systems. Do NOT call it "Gentoo" when you do, however. Also, do NOT go around promoting, advocating or otherwise whoring your stuff to people who don't know better, or who might use it on non-test systems. You've giving us a bad name, and causing us massive amounts of work filtering out invalid bugzilla entries.

Checklist for anyone who's going to disagree:

  • Make sure you do not claim that Gentoo is not a distribution. That's not the issue under discussion.
  • When claiming you have a definition of distribution which includes Gentoo and not BMG, ensure that you take every Gentoo-supported arch into consideration. PCI-based sparc32 kit is a good place to start, since it disqualifies any argument involving 'livecd' or 'handbook'.
  • Don't make any logical fallacies.
  • Don't bother with ad hominem arguments. It's already well known that the lovechild fan brigade hate my guts, so no need to bring it up again, eh? If you'd like me not to post in an arrogant, condescending style, try not misrepresenting my arguments and plastering them all over the web in the first place. Yes, hackeron, that means you.
  • Ignore all the things that hackeron said that I said.
  • Remember that this post does not represent the sum total of my argument. I have better things to do than write out the entire essay on why the toolchain and ebuilds are so critical to the distribution.
  • Look up the word "argument" in a dictionary.


Short summary for the lazy, since I know fine well most of you aren't going to bother reading all of this: once you start screwing around with core packages, you're not using Gentoo.

I've hit 1000 words, so I'll stop.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What makes gentoo a distribution, at the result following the install instructions. You have a fully working system.

BMG does not link anything together, does not provide a base system and does not give you a working end product. Before you jump on the "base system" remark. LFS *DOES* have a base system. The only difference, you build that base system manually using their explicit instructions.

You are confused here.

A definition on wikipedia states:
A Linux distribution or GNU/Linux distribution (also called a distro) is a complete UNIX-like operating system.

BMG is not a complete UNIX-like operating system. It cannot be installed, it has no installation documentation or installation medium/support and it *IS* infact gentoo. It even has gentoo in its name. It is specifically designed to add "a few extras", but as any "few extras", gentoo shouldn't offer support for it, as they are not official "few extras".

LFS also doesnt have an installation medium, but it has everything you need provided to have that complete UNIX-like operating system following their install guide.

I have not seen any proof for your so called alternate packaging system on BMG either. But it does not change the fact that BMG is a collection of ebuilds. Nothing more, nothing less. It is by no means a linux distribution.

I'm just getting this responce out quickly :), I will follow this up with another respose, and take a little longer to argue against everything you just said, just like you took around an hour to cook up that ludicrous explanation why BMG is a distro.

As for me putting words in your mouth? I could post how the discussion went, and let the public make that decision :)
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