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Klavs
Guru
Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 536
Location: Denmark
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 Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2002 6:24 am Post subject: Mandrake 9.0 vs. Gentoo w/GCC-3.2 |
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Hi guys,
I've just received my new server. It's a 800mhz Via C3 - for which I know the optimized gcc-settings is only march=i586  - and it's gonna run 24/7/365.
As I know Mandrake compiles their packages with march=i586, I'm twisting my head to find out, what advantages Gentoo would have over Mandrake on this machine.
They both use Gcc-3.2 (as far as I know mandrake has compiled everything with this), and as they both are/can be compiled for optimal march in this case, will I see a speed difference between them, at all?
Mandrake has urpmi, and Gentoo has emerge.
Could there be any other advantages with Gentoo over Mandrake I just can't see?
What would you guys do?
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Best regards,
Klavs Klavsen
Denmark
Working with Unix is like wrestling a worthy opponent.
Working with windows is like attacking a small whining child
who is carrying a .38. |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20067
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| Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2002 6:26 am Post subject: |
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emerge would be enough for me. How is Mandrake support?
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Klavs
Guru
Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 536
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2002 6:33 am Post subject: |
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Mandrake support is fine - and they do backport security fixes, which means I don't risk getting a faulty system, because I have to upgrade something - and I can also easily upgrade to a new version, because I have the .src.rpm.
And as to urpmi, it works just like Debian's apt-get or as emerge - without the compiling part of course 
So if there's no speed differences between Gentoo and Mandrake in this case, I see no reason to choose Mandrake, and get the uncertainty of new versions (no backports = potential instability - although that is seldom the problem).
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Best regards,
Klavs Klavsen
Denmark
Working with Unix is like wrestling a worthy opponent.
Working with windows is like attacking a small whining child
who is carrying a .38. |
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Malakin
Veteran
Joined: 14 Apr 2002
Posts: 1692
Location: Victoria BC Canada
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| Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2002 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| Gentoo and emerge is much better then Mandrake with urpmi. With emerge you can constantly keep your system updated to the latest and greatest but with urpmi you can usually only get security updates unless you look around so you end up having to upgrade to the next version of Mandrake when it comes out to update your software. |
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Arker
Apprentice
Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 205
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| Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2002 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Mandrake 9.0 vs. Gentoo w/GCC-3.2 |
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| Klavs wrote: |
Mandrake has urpmi, and Gentoo has emerge.
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These two things really cannot be compared. I don't know what your experience with Mandrake is but mine is that the emerge system is fat superior to urpmi.
I'm not knockin' Mandrake, it's a nice distro, I'm just very relieved to be far away from any rpms. Whew!
Cheers,
Arker. |
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taskara
Advocate
Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 3763
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Sep 28, 2002 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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one thing about making a server from gentoo is that it is small and tight (the way we all like it, right!?  )
gentoo is small and fast and you install only what you want - no bloated mandrake install with things you don't want.
plus gentoo will make you learn lots about how your system works, and I'd thoroughly recommend the security guide for gentoo.
try them both, maybe?
gentoo just rocks - I love it, u will too! |
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waverider202
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 146
Location: Drexel University
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| Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2002 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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I've been using Gentoo for 4 months now, and I am VERY happy with it. Some of my friends are using rpm based distro's, and they always run into so many problems. With gentoo, I emerge it, and its done.
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amasidlover
Apprentice
Joined: 16 Jun 2002
Posts: 293
Location: Manchester, UK
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| Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 8:26 am Post subject: |
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I just spent the weekend changing my home server/firewall from Mandrake 8.0 to Gentoo. I did this because I'd let Mandrake get a long way out of date and using URPMI to update seemed quite risky!
Also, I found Mandrake installs a lot of stuff out of the box that I don't need. Gentoo should be easier to keep up to date, also, I don't have to wait as long for the latest versions of software. The disadvantage with Gentoo is the compile time, and the risk of installing stuff which is 'too' new.
For a production server I'd probably go with Debian, since it (reportedly) is very stable and easy to keep updated.
One nice thing with Mandrake is the inclusion of the bastille-firewall tool which is the easiest firewall to configure (in my experience). Although I have managed to copy it onto the new gentoo box and use it.
I think providing you've done a gentoo install before, you'll find Gentoo easier to setup as a server than Mandrake. |
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Bouiaw
n00b
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 54
Location: Lyon, France
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| Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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First, I am french so excuse my poor english ...
I have just installed the Mandrake to compare it with the Gentoo. I am very surprised to see that the Mandrake run faster that Gentoo. I don't understand !!! The mandrake was compiled with march=i586, and my Gentoo with march=athlon-xp and more optimisations ...
I really think that my Gentoo has the good parameters. I really like Gentoo but the result is clear : all my kde apps are faster under Mandrake.
Here is my configuration :
Athon XP 1800+
MSI KT3 Ultra
512 Mo DDR
Geforce 3
Gentoo was the 1.4rc1 installed from scratch, compiled with "-march-athlon-xp -O3 -pipe -fomit-frame-pointer" and dma enabled
Mandrake was 9.0
Anyone else has tested both Mandrake and Gentoo on the same computer ? Is it a bug ? |
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Malakin
Veteran
Joined: 14 Apr 2002
Posts: 1692
Location: Victoria BC Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I really like Gentoo but the result is clear : all my kde apps are faster under Mandrake. |
This could be from a lot of things. Your choice of kernel options for example. |
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Bouiaw
n00b
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 54
Location: Lyon, France
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| Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| My kernel under Mandrake is the default one. Under Gentoo, I just took what I needed.The low latency was the only "exotic" thing that I enabled in the Gentoo kernel. Could I came from the low latency option ? I don't think so ... |
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gillesg
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 17 Sep 2002
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2002 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Bouiaw wrote: | | My kernel under Mandrake is the default one. Under Gentoo, I just took what I needed.The low latency was the only "exotic" thing that I enabled in the Gentoo kernel. Could I came from the low latency option ? I don't think so ... |
What do you refer to by low latency?
- Low latency scheduling
- Control low latency with sysctl
Do you have
- Preemptible Kernel
selected ?
Gilles |
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acoromi
n00b
Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 42
Location: Catalunya (Europa)
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Bouiaw wrote: | all my kde apps are faster under Mandrake.
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Totally agree. I've installed both and it's true in my box. KDE is faster in Mandrake than gentoo. For the rest of applications, I can't appreciate any difference. But kde is really faster in Mandrake 
As Bouiaw, with Mandrake default kernel. |
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meyerm
Veteran
Joined: 27 Jun 2002
Posts: 1311
Location: Munich / Germany
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| What happens if you use the mandrake kernel inside of your gentoo-system? |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20067
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder if some Mandrake employees know of some way to configure KDE to optimize it during install.
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delta407
Bodhisattva
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 2876
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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Why would you want to? It's big and bloated and includes lots of unnecessary stuff.
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20067
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| delta407 wrote: | | Why would you want to? |
Optimize KDE? Because it is bloated  . Seriously though, I can understand why a company would want to use a DE that was very similar to MS Win. As KDE is bloated, I can see value in MDK finding a way to optimize it.
Personally, I couldn't give a rats ass, I don't use KDE. I just thought it was odd that several people have reported it as being faster on MDK over G. Same version of KDE & GCC... something has to be different. I'm curious to hear what it is (if someone figures it out).
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arkane
l33t
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 918
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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Well, even if you don't use it, having an optimized KDE setup is advantageous to the distribution as a whole because then you can honestly say that your distribution is good for a desktop usage by normal people. (not people who consider fluxbox to be the 3l33t thing)
I'm not downing fluxbox whatsoever, but of course it's going to run fast. It's less than a meg in size lol |
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arkane
l33t
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 918
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| delta407 wrote: | | Why would you want to? It's big and bloated and includes lots of unnecessary stuff. |
Personally I find KDE to be a great desktop environment for people converting over from Windows. It's a terrific system that has alot of utilities and is able to do just about everything, and more, than Windows. But yes.. it's bloated.
Gnome isn't much better I just wish that programs like WindowMaker woul dhave some sort of "desktop" to them. I know they are Window Managers, but you know... if someone would make a desktop environment that wasn't so blasted bloated because of a overlaying tookit.... |
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yokem55
Guru
Joined: 18 Apr 2002
Posts: 360
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Could Mandrake have prelinking working in 9.0? I know that that has a huge potetial for a speedup when it comes to c++ apps, which KDE is entirely. |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 20067
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| arkane wrote: | | Well, even if you don't use it, having an optimized KDE setup is advantageous to the distribution as a whole |
I agree completely. That is why I suggested someone at MDK might know of a way to optimize it. Speed is the main reason I've chosen to avoid KDE. Otherwise, my only complaint is the 'K' everywhere. I think I've finally figured out why too. To me, the 'K' appears cheap. Especially in the logo. Yes, I know the G is present everywhere in Gnome (I like the footprint icon better). Perhaps because I pronounce the G sliently it bugs me less. Anyhow... if I run across a "How to optimize KDE on Gentoo" thread, I'll probably give KDE a shot.
As for the 'desktop', you might check out this post about idesk. Not sure if it works in WindowMaker.
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Bouiaw
n00b
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 54
Location: Lyon, France
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| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2002 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| gillesg wrote: |
What do you refer to by low latency?
- Low latency scheduling
- Control low latency with sysctl
Do you have
- Preemptible Kernel
selected ?
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I enabled Low latency scheduling and Preemptible Kernel. |
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Bouiaw
n00b
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 54
Location: Lyon, France
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| Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2002 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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I have found on linuxfr.org the list of the KDE's modifications made by Mandrake. It is just a list of RPM :
kde-lib64updates.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0-config-kdebugrc
kdelibs-3.0-filesharing.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0-iconssearch.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0-kdedesktop2mdkmenu.pl
kdelibs-3.0-kdedesktop2mdkmenu.pl-mdk-8.0
kdelibs-3.0-kio-kcookiejar.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0-kstddirs_kmenuedit_or_kmenudrak-mdk-8.0.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0-kstddirs_kmenuedit_or_kmenudrake.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.2-add-cdrom-floppy-entry-in-kfiledialogbox.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.2-default-document-path.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.2-default-mdk-color.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.2-default-preview-size.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.2-distribution-list-use-klineedit3.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.2-fix-dadou-crash-in-with-fam.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.2-fix-item-in-kfile.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.2-fix-kate-mem-leak.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.2-fix-ktip-too-big-with-qt-305.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.2-kfiledialogbox-add-mkdir-item-to-toolbar.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.2-lib64dirs.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.2-use-klineeditdlg-in-kfiledialog.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.3-dont-add-dev-directory-entry.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.3-fix-ask-flash-pluggins.patch2.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.3-fix-bug-in-kdialogbox-spearate-directory.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.3-fix-crash-in-dirtree.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.3-fix-crash-with-java-applet.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.3-fix-cupdconf-dlg.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.3-fix-ensure-visible.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.3-fix-kate-mem-leak.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.3-fix-kimgio-tiff.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.3-fix-klistview-moveup-down.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.3-kdeprint-use-klineeditdlg.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.3-preview-icons-by-default.patch.bz2
kdelibs-3.0.3.tar.bz2
kdelibs-3.O-mdk-hicolor-index.desktop
kdelibs.spec
kmdbcreator.diff.bz2
ugc.fr.patch.bz2
These are not modifications, just patches to correct a lot of bugs ... |
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arkane
l33t
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 918
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2002 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Great, if they are available to the public that would be extra awesome. They could be included with the kde sources as patches, and patched upon download. Of course, after thorough testing, but you get the jist.
I wonder if mandrake has them available for download? |
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dreamer3
Guru
Joined: 24 Sep 2002
Posts: 553
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| Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2002 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| If you download the Mandrake Source RPMs you should get them in some type of usable form... I would think. |
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