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avenj
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lisa wrote:
KungFuHamster wrote:
Don't believe me? Ask anyone who used to post over at LinuxNewbie.Org (now JustLinux.com) during the "Great /dev/random Kristalnacht" where the mods decided to remove the off-topic forum. Half the userbase left en-masse (myself included), leaving nothing but 20 post newbies screaming at other 20 post newbies while the mods had a shit fit.


Funny.

Hardforum removed General Mayhem and the Soapbox forum ages ago and the site has only gotten stronger and more focused on hardware like its supposed to be.


The forums are more than just a place to find support; they're also a community. OTW and to a certain extent Gentoo Chat is considered by many to be central to that community; it's the social hub of the tech support environment here.
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avenj
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mocnicom wrote:
watashiwaotaku7 wrote:
just a question, why is it that so many people especially the developers harp on lovechild so much? i mean everything that ive ever seen of him has seemed to be good, he created (AND SUPPORTED!!!) the love sources, hes helped loads of people, and ive never seen him post anything really offensive...maybe i just havent been here long enough but i really cant understand whats so bad about him


He's pretty vocal and critical of gentoo's flaws, which may offend some developers.


Why would that offend some developers?

Lovechild offends me because of his overall attitude, not the content of what he says. He also offends me because a lot of people seem to hero-worship him despite repeated instances of immature behavior on his part. He offends a lot of developers because he consistently insists there is some sort of Gentoo developer conspiracy to do whatever's bugging him at the time, then he uses the fact that he's good at making enemies in the developer community as evidence of this. It's ridiculous, frankly.

See my sig.
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avenj
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ultraslacker wrote:
I think we need stricter moderating - it has been rolling along fine until the last few weeks. I am not sure if it is just the holidays and everyone is cranky or if the gentoo community is finally attracting the lowest common denominator, but things are getting nasty out there. Ad hominems should not be tolerated (unless they are really really funny), with banning implemented for abuses. In general, I would like to see a moderation approach similar to that on ars technica's battlefront and soap box.


Why? You can't decide for yourself what you want to read?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

airspirit wrote:
Knowing the political leanings of the moderators here, if this forum was selectively moderated it would turn into nothing but a right-bashing party. You can't have a fairly moderated forum when the moderation is coming from a biased party. I think that's why those two left ... both were extreme leftists and couldn't handle the fact that they could neither convince others of their craziness or censor the opposition. I hope they stick around in the other forums, but I'm not sad to see a couple of nuts go.


Yeah, the forums mods are a bunch of dirty liberals. Right pjp? 8)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

avenj wrote:
shm wrote:
Lovechild and ebrostig left for different reasons.

Lovechild left because he was tired of people trolling him, especially developers. It wasn't because of political reasons or whatever.

Ebrostig left because people had differing opinions about political things he posted. Well, duh. That's how people are.

In conclusion, Lovechild mostly left because of posts like: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=729032#729032
and Ebrostig left mostly because of posts like: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=741435#741435


In that Lovechild post, I see Lovechild taking ciaranm way too seriously and responding very immaturely.

I do not really see how anyone was "trolling" Lovechild.


I have to agree on that one - I thought ciaranm's post was pretty funny, actually. Was it not really obviously made with tongue planted firmly in cheek?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stonent wrote:
antonik wrote:
dont we all know who the extremists are? cant we just tell them to have a nice steaming cup of shut the fuck up?


http://stonent.pointclark.net/stfu.jpg
http://stonent.pointclark.net/stfu2.jpg

:lol:

One problem is the American left is still somewhat to the right of moderate compared to the European left.
we should also use this one way more often.
http://ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/positive8.jpg
:lol:

yes that is true.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

avenj wrote:
lisa wrote:
KungFuHamster wrote:
Don't believe me? Ask anyone who used to post over at LinuxNewbie.Org (now JustLinux.com) during the "Great /dev/random Kristalnacht" where the mods decided to remove the off-topic forum. Half the userbase left en-masse (myself included), leaving nothing but 20 post newbies screaming at other 20 post newbies while the mods had a shit fit.


Funny.

Hardforum removed General Mayhem and the Soapbox forum ages ago and the site has only gotten stronger and more focused on hardware like its supposed to be.


The forums are more than just a place to find support; they're also a community. OTW and to a certain extent Gentoo Chat is considered by many to be central to that community; it's the social hub of the tech support environment here.


I haven't been to OTW for a few days so I don't know what has or hasn't happened, been too busy trying to sort out problems. One thing I will say is that it is that community element which such forums bring that is so valuable. Removing it wouldn't destroy everything, but it would destroy a lot of that community feeling.

I was also one of those who left LinuxNewbie when they got rid of /dev/random and my reason was simple enough. Not that I got the hump because I couldn't post **** any more, but because I could no longer contribute. I was there because I was a newbie and here also because I was a newbie (... i'll probably always be one). I couldn't answer 99% of the questions that were posted all I could do was read them and wonder. Having /dev/random allowed me to at least feel I was a part of the community even if I couldn't contribute too much. People there like mdwatts who I have an awful lot of respect for helped me to such an extent that I continued through all the problems I had and without them I would have given up on Linux a long time ago, but it's also fair to say that without the community spirit I wouldn't have hung about long enough to receive that help because I felt completely out of my depth on every forum BUT /dev/random.


If you read a post or get involved in one and you feel yourself or others are getting wound up by it .. pull out, it's not hard. If you feel you have been abused or that the post is in some other way offensive, report it to a mod or take it to PM. And on a final note,

<pimpin' mode>if you feel offended by what goes on in the world and get angry at the injustices, then sure, post about it, but why not do something useful and go and join Amnesty International :? It doesn't cost much and you can make a difference. Works for me anyway. http://www.amnesty.org.uk/join/index.shtml </pimpin' mode>
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, folks. This is getting ridiculous.

We are not going to start moderating things with a heavier hand, especially in OTW. We are a community. Communities disagree. If you can't handle that, please leave.

For the rest of you: it's one thing to disagree. It's another thing entirely to wave your hands around, throw temper tantrums and act like someone just stole your pacifier. Phrases like, "I disagree with your reasoning and here's why" will get you further and with more respect than, "stfu you stupid little bitch". I had thought this was self-evident. You all have shown me how wrong I was.

Be professional. Be courteous. Behave.

--kurt (who's tired of all the children fighting in the sandbox)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

paranode wrote:
Yeah it's too bad that certain people cop out when their opinion is refuted, but what can you do.

First off, this is the Off The Wall forum. So if you're looking for support, this is the wrong one to be in! :wink: The quality of the other forums remain strictly support-related. Offensive content is in the eye of the beholder, and most commonly it means "whoever dares to oppose the mods".

Secondly, people who get tired of these long flame wars are victims of their own Frankensteins. If you don't want to get involved in an internet flame war that will never end then a) don't join in and b) certainly don't start one!

Good luck to those who leave because of liberal political viewpoints. I doubt they'll find a forum more inline with their views than this one.


Yeah. I dared oppose the mods. I've been here for a while and OTW has always been majority liberal support of politics. A few post presenting alternate views on taboo subjects such as race and everyone goes crazy and let's their emotions get the best of them (maybe they aren't capable of discussing such issues). Anyway I've pretty much acheived my personal goal of proving a theory of mine through recent posts. This theory is that even "hacker" forums such as this reflect the same degree of senseless Political Correctness that our society has. "Hackers" are hardly "free thinkers" and universal objectivst. Furthermore most hackers contradict their stated platform of freedom when they demonstrate they value political correctness more than freedom.

I pretty much predicted to a T the reactions people would have to some of my recent controversial posts. This is simply because people are predictable. Their actions are no different than the masses, whose devices (windows) they have claimed liberation from in the name of "freedom". Well it's very effecient to use heirarchiel systems of power to silence unfavorable opinions, which is what happened to me on this board. Because suppression is universally unavoidable (it's inherint to life), so is the destruction of heirarchic structures. Therefore I simply seek to become more powerful than my enemies of political correctness at this point. Knowledge of the computerized infrarstructure of society (working knowledge of PC's, phones, email, etc) will no doubt help me gaining strength. You people probably don't understand, but I will return more powerful than you ever imagined. Just thought I'd share some of my insights/transgressions with you folks.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mocnicom wrote:
airspirit wrote:
Knowing the political leanings of the moderators here, if this forum was selectively moderated it would turn into nothing but a right-bashing party. You can't have a fairly moderated forum when the moderation is coming from a biased party. I think that's why those two left ... both were extreme leftists and couldn't handle the fact that they could neither convince others of their craziness or censor the opposition. I hope they stick around in the other forums, but I'm not sad to see a couple of nuts go.


Something you need to understand though is that in america everything is alot more to the right than most of the western world. A centrist of america is pretty right-wing on an internation level. And the people you call extreme leftist are more like centrist. An extreme leftist outside of america is someone who advocates killing of lumber executives etc. So for non americans the level of extremism in american right-wingers is somewhat shocking, as I'm sure it's shocking to you to see that those "extreme leftists" actually consider themselves, and are considered by many others, as centrist.

It's like a KKK member having a conversation about religion with a member of the taliban sometimes. //loose metaphor

Edit: Didn't notice you said the same thing there stonent.


While I do believe that the United States is the most fundamentalist/jingoist country in the World, I do believe that American politics, at least modern, are watered-down.

It's funny. Huey P. Newton is one of the guys who ran the Black Panther Party back in the 60's. He has two autobiographies: soul on ice/fire repsectively. Well in one, which I have read, he talks about his trip to Argentina I believe, or some other country in that region of the world. According to research I did (this wasn't in the bio), the argentinians basically told him to watch his mouth in there country (not like he ran it in the US) or they'd "cut his head off". You can say this is an example of Argentinian extremism, or the laid-back attitude of American's. Regardless, I think it's funny when the more extreme American liberals say things like "revolution" like Newton did, and than found out the realities of "revolution".

Personally I think violence is okay. Things don't happen because someone writes laws on paper, but because people struggle for the cause. This statement probably is looked at as me being liberal, but I'm not. Basically I think this truth is universally applicable. Whatever your cause you have to fight.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think (and already stated in other posts) that any strong community should take this kind of things with less preocupation, the gentoo forums, and specually OTW, are a very strong community, so if one or two members decide to live, even if they are considered important, there's really nothing to worry about, the forums will continue to be a great place to be and to find solutions to your problems, like any other organism, it will adapt and go on.

So, rounding up, if someone wants to leave, so be it, you can't start cry'ing your heart out about it, if you loved LoveChild or Erik so much, just see where they end up and go with them, but PLEASE, don't ask the forums to be changed in order to "not offend" one or two angry people.

BTW: I have nothing about eborstig nor lovechild, in fact, I enjoyed their presence in these forums as much as anyone else.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm trying to be unbiased here.

Basically I think OTW should stay, although I seriosly doubt they would ever consider getting rid of it. GNU/linux is nothing but politics. You have forks and disbandings and other quite political happenings all the time. To confine such things to usenet and mailing lists is retarded. A lot of intelligent discussion goes on in OTW. Besides, if Linux is a reactionary revoltion, how can we support the reduction of places where people can talk politics? How can we theorize, improve our positions and arguements?

I think it's wrong for Gentoo to want to take OTW away in effort to create a more utilitarian forums. If it weren't for political people discussing "non-technical" stuff like ESR and RMS, love em' or hate em', than none of us would be here today. If all you guys want to do is number crunching and coding, than so be it, but GNU/Linux is just as much gnu.org/philosophy as it is Linux kernel source. To outcast the intellectuals of the movement by reducing their meeting places is to retard your own progress, and to be very un-appreciative of their support and ideological contributions.

So yeah, lets go ahead and make these forums less "political" and make them more like stupid macintosh user forums or microsoft user forums where people are basically handicapped mentally. It seems that the Gentoo community really are only a bunch of people who only care about "optimizations" and are complusively obsesed with small fast optimized binaries and they don't care at all about anything interesting that doesn'ty involve frame rate performance and such. If people didn't battle for DeCSS to exist you would be watching DVD on linux. If RMS didn't battle for free QT you wouldn't have a free KDE. If Monty didn't write vorbis cause of political reaons you woulnd't have a free codec. Man you guys are ungrateful sometimes.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, you're right zen. GNU/Linux is innately political. Most of the software we're using right now was developed *specifically* for political reasons. I think what people are saying here is that OTW is getting to be too much. You don't hear RMS running around saying "stfu u little bitch" to Bill Gates, right? There are ways to be political, and even hold extreme viewpoints like RMS, without being offensive. "So who's to say whats offensive", you ask? I should think a common sense of decency and basic etiquette should be enough. Maybe all the conversations taking place now about OTW will get the point across. I don't think heavy handed moderation tactics are appropriate (yet) but I do think the OTW forum needs to be cleaned up a bit. Points can be made without being snide, nasty or condecending. Without slamming people, personal insults or treating each other badly. That is not being politically correct, its called having a mature debate. In debate, the first person to make a personal insult looses. *shrug*
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We will not be changing anything in OTW. Please see this post for more information.

--kurt
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kurt -- Thanks for posting the OTW policy. I was actually in the process of writing a similar document to submit for potential use in these forums.

In my previous note, I advocated for stricter moderating. I specifically was thinking in terms of stricter moderating once the "I wouldn't say that to my own mom" rule was broken.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want to come with a few remarks since this and other posts have sprung from my own thread where I announced stepping down as a moderator.

I did not quit as a moderator because people disagree with me.
I did not quit as a moderator because I got offended by someone.
I did not quit as a moderator because I can't stand other opinions.

I did however quit as a moderator since I felt this community has attracted too many extremists. People who normally would have been laughed at and quashed immediatly. Since very few actually have tried to oppose these extremists, I figured that most peoiple either:
a) Agree with them
b) Don't care

I'm not sure which one of them I think is worse.

I did not quit because people have different opinions than what I have. We live in a world of different opinions. But I can't sit around and watch these extremists take over and look like they are the defacto norm when I think most of us know they are a minority. I just got fed up with not seeing many people rebunk and oppose their sick views. That is fine if you actually agree with them, but not if you disagree. If you don't have the guts to oppose these crack heads, why should I? I spent many many hours each day in the forum trying to moderate and discuss at the same time. The more I read, the more disgusted I became until I've had enough. Free speech is great and I support it (alwyas have, always will), but when you don't have the guts to use your free speech to opoose these estreme ideas then why should I?

As for now, it seems like you all agree with zenlunatic, kihajii, paranode, stormy eyes, and several others. How many of you activly try to put them in the place where they belong? Until I see people start taking them seriously and start opposing them and their sick ideas, I will be a very passive member of the community. I will try, if time allows, to still answer technical questions.

Erik
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

As for now, it seems like you all agree with zenlunatic, kihajii, paranode, stormy eyes, and several others. How many of you activly try to put them in the place where they belong? Until I see people start taking them seriously and start opposing them and their sick ideas, I will be a very passive member of the community. I will try, if time allows, to still answer technical questions


And how is my view extreme? Show me 1 spot, just 1, where I said I agreed that flogging the girl was right, just 1, quote it, make a poster out of it, I don't care, just find it. In fact, find 1 spot where ANYONE said flogging her was right, you wont. We stated that while the flogging was wrong we understand that certain countries and societies have different views and laws than ours, and that we have no place to judge them right or wrong. If you can't, guess what, you are trolling and are now in violation of the rules.

If that's an extremist view, then sign me up.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kihaji wrote:
Quote:

As for now, it seems like you all agree with zenlunatic, kihajii, paranode, stormy eyes, and several others. How many of you activly try to put them in the place where they belong? Until I see people start taking them seriously and start opposing them and their sick ideas, I will be a very passive member of the community. I will try, if time allows, to still answer technical questions


And how is my view extreme? Show me 1 spot, just 1, where I said I agreed that flogging the girl was right, just 1, quote it, make a poster out of it, I don't care, just find it. In fact, find 1 spot where ANYONE said flogging her was right, you wont. We stated that while the flogging was wrong we understand that certain countries and societies have different views and laws than ours, and that we have no place to judge them right or wrong. If you can't, guess what, you are trolling and are now in violation of the rules.

If that's an extremist view, then sign me up.


Where did I mention anything about flogging in my last post? Please show me.

Erik
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ebrostig wrote:

Where did I mention anything about flogging in my last post? Please show me.

Erik


Then again, show me where my views are considered "extreme", so much that it would make you sick to be here.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad you're still here, Erik. I was under the impression that you quit the forums, not just stepped down. I can understand stepping down, I've done it myself several times both on IRC and on a forum. I find it hard to be impartial or objective with the power given when everything you see you disagree with. Eventually, its easier to just 'let them have it' rather than trying to fight it. It seems to me you're in that position now. Unfortunatly, it starts to become pointless to continue and you almost feel driven way. Like I said, I've been there a few times now in my 11 years online. It never feels good. I'm glad you're still hanging around though. :)

Quote:
As for now, it seems like you all agree with zenlunatic, kihajii, paranode, stormy eyes, and several others. How many of you activly try to put them in the place where they belong? Until I see people start taking them seriously and start opposing them and their sick ideas, I will be a very passive member of the community. I will try, if time allows, to still answer technical questions.


The problem here, I think, is that those people are very well spoken. Its a common debate tactic to overpower your opponent with large words and difficult to read sentence structure. Sure, they're grammatically correct, but they're also said in a way that is confusing to most people. Its diliberate. And unless you're as well spoken or as eloquent as the person posing the opposite arguement, you'll either get confused and reply incorrectly or phrase your retort in a way that is easily picked apart. This has nothing to do with intelligence or even being right. Its a debate tactic. Hell, I've done it myself to simply overpower my opponent because it was clear I was loosing. That way I can pick apart their responces rather than having to defend mine. In short, its a cheap shot and it happens here all the time.

The only person I tend to agree with usually is jetblack. A lot of times I don't even bother responding because hes already said what I'd of said. Also I won't respond to a thread where the main arguements are of the above type.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ebrostig wrote:
As for now, it seems like you all agree with zenlunatic, kihajii, paranode, stormy eyes, and several others. How many of you activly try to put them in the place where they belong? Until I see people start taking them seriously and start opposing them and their sick ideas, I will be a very passive member of the community. I will try, if time allows, to still answer technical questions.


Let's see, my referring to the people ordering that the girl be flogged as "god-haunted barbarians" is "sick"? Funny, I thought you might have approved of that sentiment.

Or do you think that my picking the third path when offered a choice between leading, following, or getting the hell out of the way is "sick"?

Perhaps you think me depraved because I put myself first and base every aspect of my life around my personal well-being. Too damned bad.

I've refrained from going after you personally, even though you've annoyed me, but I will say this: Keep dreaming about putting people like me "in the place where I belong", but keep one thing in mind: better people than you have failed.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stormy Eyes wrote:
ebrostig wrote:
As for now, it seems like you all agree with zenlunatic, kihajii, paranode, stormy eyes, and several others. How many of you activly try to put them in the place where they belong? Until I see people start taking them seriously and start opposing them and their sick ideas, I will be a very passive member of the community. I will try, if time allows, to still answer technical questions.


Let's see, my referring to the people ordering that the girl be flogged as "god-haunted barbarians" is "sick"? Funny, I thought you might have approved of that sentiment.

Or do you think that my picking the third path when offered a choice between leading, following, or getting the hell out of the way is "sick"?

Perhaps you think me depraved because I put myself first and base every aspect of my life around my personal well-being. Too damned bad.

I've refrained from going after you personally, even though you've annoyed me, but I will say this: Keep dreaming about putting people like me "in the place where I belong", but keep one thing in mind: better people than you have failed.


I couldn't care less about you. You are a nobody

Erik
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ebrostig wrote:
I couldn't care less about you. You are a nobody

Erik


I love you too, Erik. :D
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klieber
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Children! Please!

Jeez, this is pathetic. Would you please all grow up and act civil towards one another?

If I have to intervene one more time, the thread will get locked and at least one person will get banned. I'm sick of having to wipe noses around here.

--kurt
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The problem with political jokes is that they get elected
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Stormy Eyes
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

klieber wrote:
Jeez, this is pathetic. Would you please all grow up and act civil towards one another?


OK, boss. I'll behave.
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