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chaosesqueteam
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Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 31
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 Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:53 am Post subject: How systemd happened so suddenly on stable/slow moving debia |
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Debian was one known to be stable / slow moving / sane etc. The reason was likely it's drawn out democratic process of decision making involving the entire debian dev community. That was the past. More recently That paradigm has been smashed.
| Quote: |
nestler wrote:
oldboy wrote:
In emergency mode (or single user mode), log in as root and type in journalctl -b
I know that this is how it is supposed to work but even this is not working. I get either no password prompt at all or a password prompt that is not actually listening to input (typing root password and enter does nothing). It is basically hung.
It is amazing to me that systemd has gotten any traction within Debian. For all of its occasional flaws as an organization (slow moving and perfectionist) you could previously count on Debian to make the right technical decisions in the end. I cannot see how anyone could call replacing sysvinit with systemd progress.
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You would think, and perhaps you would be right if the decision went to a general resolution where such important decisions are normally made: where all the debian packagers vote and decide together.
That did not happen. The decision was made by four systemd evangelists on a technical committee that was created to deal with bugs. The systemd enforcers went around the backs of all of the debian community once they knew they had enough support in that committee and had one of their own as the tie breaker chairman (oh sorry, chairPerson).
Once that committee voted the systemd people declared systemd as fiat complete and went on to work at silencing dissident, filtering the mailing lists, banning people who were opposed to them. Same thing they did in arch linux.
A coup occurred. An oligarchy decided for us. We are now told to shut up, both users and developers alike. We are even mocked that we "couldn't even get a gr going" after they deleted our emails from the debian mailing lists as "spam" for being anti systemd. After they never even tried a gr but did an end run around all of debian.
Four people decided the fate of debian Linux. On a committee dominated by employees of other Linux distributions (red hat and Ubuntu plants). This was all done in bad faith by the systemd people and probably violates the by laws of whatever incorporated entity debian exists as which call for general resolutions for such decisions.
These systemd people, honestly, are sons of bitches. |
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krinn
Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 7470
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:10 am Post subject: |
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It is common practice to quote or cite someone/something with the source of the quote if not from the thread itself.
Because without source it's just propaganda without proof.
That's something systemd lovers do a lot, it doesn't mean it's something everyone should do.
And anyone can judge the value of :
| Quote: | linus_t wrote: i love windows, the new one is really better than any GNU/Linux made
richard_t wrote: yeah really good, to a point i even wonder why i start that GNU sucky thing at first. |
So if you want create unrealistic or stupid quote, the easiest way is to backup yourself the quote with your own url.
To do that, create your url as http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/boot-is-broken-but-omg-fast (note 0pointer.de will hold it if freedesktop.org is full)
And arguement it with a style like if it wasn't made to say what you are trying to say, not for the irony but just to blur poor minded (if people catch what you are saying they won't cite your url as you obviously are just saying shit, you must blur it to a point they don't get anything of what you're saying : if they don't get it, that's because you're awesome.
Once you reach the awesome state in their mind, you're a guru and an url you wrote is then the bible.
"It's impressive how fast systemd boot when it crash! I've never seen that case with openrc but i'm sure it would be really really much slower than systemd"
"Writing a byte on my fs and with btrfs it only takes 4s to make my partition full. 4s to fill a 1G partition isn't something any other fs can beat. That's why we think btrfs will add value to us".
"Roads are broken: people keep dying getting out of road with my car, but it's not because my car have no steering wheel, it's because someone made roads with curves! So my car works perfectly even on curves roads, but making curves roads is a broken concept. My car is only the messenger."
You need a part in it with a faq like :
"Myth #54549: I have a problem with journalctl that keep segfault."
"Fact: systemd log everywith with plenty details, so an application that segfault will get log and you can get full infos on the error to help you track down the issue. It's like text logs, but better. Use journalctl to read your logs."
"Myth #934349: systemd is not portable.
Fact: you can put systemd source code into any usb keys and carry them everywhere with you! Remember it's GNU software, so you can even carry it to the zoo."
"Myth #3435445 : binary logs are really better?"
"Fact : yeah, see Myth #54549, we already told you it's like text log, but better."
"Myth #11194349: I cannot use text logs, and must use that shitty binary log format."
"Fact: systemd allow you to run metalog or any text logger you wish with its binary format. It's a myth that systemd cannot be even bloater than just systemd alone. So nothing in systemd prevent you to bloat your system even more to add real functionality that works since start of linux era."
"Myth #9433344455 : logind is useless".
"Fact: logind provide multiseat functionality, that's an awesome feature all server admins were crying to get, now you can have 10 admins on one server sharing a seat!!! We plan some pizzad application to also provide 10 pizzas to them. In fact there's nearly no limit to create something that end with a <d> in its name ; and we are fully aware toiletd is needed and it's on our todo list."
"Myth #92221194349: systemd is not modular."
"Fact: You can have a debian using systemd to becomes a redhat, or use a fedora with systemd to become a redhat, or even transform your gentoo into a real redhat distro! So no, just another myth, systemd is modular and can swap any distro into a redhat easy."
It's also common practice to have another url with propaganda that you can cite in the first one to backup the first one reality (because remember, you need source) ; of course any users really aware of how to makes things the right way already guess : yes, you must also backup the second url with a link to the first one. Magic no? url1 backup its claims with url2 that backup its claims with url1
Now you can put url1 quotes everywhere and if someone attack it, gives them url2 link...
Once it's done, you're ready to use propaganda, and can create a thread like "Why is Gentoo not switching to systemd?".
ps: avoid to first tell "I"m not a fan of systemd for Linux" ; i know it's the famous blur trick, alas it only work with poor minded guys and i'm afraid you will get caught.
You're in Gentoo forum, i don't know how Debian forum handle propaganda and rants, but we have rules there. Anyone not respecting our propaganda and rant rules may endup in OTW. And trust me, nobody wish endup in OTW, we have "things" living there you cannot even imagine. |
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szatox
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Joined: 27 Aug 2013
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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I must say I had some good laugh on your post, krinn, hope it makes it worth the effort  |
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NeddySeagoon
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Joined: 05 Jul 2003
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Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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krinn,
You have a wonderful way with the English language. :)
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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chaosesqueteam
n00b
Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Was there as it happened.
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708
It's a long read but most of the stuff is there.
One person decided not having systemd rammed down our knecks was a "bug". And it just so happens "bugs" are resolved on a technical committee where a cohort is chairman. Now this used to be for cut and dry technical bugs, not political or preferance motivated huge changes, but totalitarians find novel uses for old beurocratic organs to affect non democratic change all the time. Which is what Paul Tagliamonte (proud member or supporter of the very productive Debian Women feminist HR department equivalent, who's main achievement is getting men they don't like kicked out of debian and filtering out potential new debian recruits for misogyny) was aiming for and did achieve. |
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229566
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 16 Aug 2010
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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You guys forgot:
Myth: data corruption is very, very bad.
Fact: No, it's not. Just rotate the data out and fresh, uncorrupt data will flow in!.
Edit: Does anyone else cringe when they see that "RESOLVED NOTABUG" on a data corruption bug report? Yeah, I know "it's just a log", but that doesn't make it RESOLVED or NOTABUG. It's a bug. It may be a low priority one, but it's a bug until you fix the corruption. And people ask me why do I have an emotional reaction when crap like this is being shoved down my throat... |
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Navar
Guru
Joined: 20 Aug 2012
Posts: 353
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| krinn wrote: | | "Writing a byte on my fs and with btrfs it only takes 4s to make my partition full. 4s to fill a 1G partition isn't something any other fs can beat. That's why we think btrfs will add value to us". |
 You made me choke on my drink there. For real? I've seen him say some crazy...s^H hyperbole... but this is a bit much.
| krinn wrote: | | You're in Gentoo forum, i don't know how Debian forum handle propaganda and rants, but we have rules there. Anyone not respecting our propaganda and rant rules may endup in OTW. And trust me, nobody wish endup in OTW, we have "things" living there you cannot even imagine. |
Actually OTW has gotten way too serious lately, even including SystemD technical discourse. It has made some of the regulars a tad grumpy. |
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chaosesqueteam
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Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:16 am Post subject: |
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As a debian user lee points out, the coup by the systemd enforcers violates the debian social contract. Not that it is any better than the us bill of rights, which has always only been a useless piece of parchment.
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/09/msg00737.html
From mailto:lee@yun.yagibdah.de
Slavko <linux@slavino.sk> writes:
> Ahoj,
>
> Dňa Thu, 11 Sep 2014 20:15:59 +0200 lee <lee@yun.yagibdah.de> napísal:
>
>> Supporting systemd violates Debians' social contract.
>
> Can you be more verbose about this, please? Why? How? By what?
I'm finding it pretty obvious. The social contract says:
"Our priorities are our users and free software
We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free software
community. We will place their interests first in our priorities. We
will support the needs of our users for operation in many different
kinds of computing environments. [...] we will provide
an integrated system of high-quality materials"[1]
Debian has decided to make systemd the default init system, and
apparently they are going to decide that even on mere distribution
upgrades, systemd will be the default init system without the users
at least being given a choice.
I claim that it is *not* in the interest of the users or of "the free
software community" to make something the default init system which is
broken by design, is encumbered with serious issues and raises a lot of
concern amongst the users.
The developers of this init system, or at least some of them, apparently
have a reputation for thinking that their software can break whatever
they want and to leave it up to others to modify their software to fix
what the systemd-people broke. I am warning of relying on software made
by developers with an attitude like this because it's prone to cause
trouble. It may cause the more trouble the more Debian depends on this
software, and trouble like that is *not* in the interest of the users.
Debian is not only making a very troublesome init system the future
default. They also allow a great number of packages providing software
which is totally unrelated to an init system to depend on this init
system, effectively making the whole distribution depend on a particular
init system, or parts thereof.
I claim that a Linux system, or distribution, as a whole *must not*
depend on a particular init system and that in doing so, choices are
being taken away and users' freedom is diminished. Designing a Linux
system/distribution this way makes the system/distribution broken by
design. This state of broken design may be a reflection of the
brokenness-by-design of the init system many people have pointed out.
I fail to see how it could be in the interest of the users or of "the
free software community" to turn Linux systems, or Linux distributions,
into systems or distributions that are broken by design and which
abandon substantial ideas that have contributed greatly not only to the
quality and reliability of Linux systems but also to the freedom of
their users: the idea being that a particular software shall do one
thing according to its purpose, do that well and no more. This idea has
resulted to choices being available to users which allow them to pick
which software to use and to the reliability of their systems, and it
has given them control over their systems.
AFAIK, users have had no saying whatsoever in the decision about the
future default init system, and they still have none. I claim that
Debian *does not* make its users their priority by making such a
decision without consulting their users, especially not when they leave
them no choice but to use the default init system, no matter whether
through dependencies or through forcibly installing it in the process of
upgrading from one distribution to another.
I see that delivering a distribution which is broken by design does
*not* mean that Debian provides "an integrated system of
high-quality"[1]. However, it's arguable what this part of the social
contract is supposed to mean: Providing a distribution which is broken
by design doesn't make it impossible to provide "high quality
materials"[1] as part of it. Yet I would assume that the intention is
not only to provide some material of high quality but to provide a Linux
distribution which is of high quality.
When Debian is truly "guided by the needs of"[1] their "users and"[1] of
"the free software community"[1], and when Debian places "their
interests first in"[1] their "priorities"[1], then would Debian not have
to strive to make /a distribution of high quality/ rather than striving
to make /a distribution that has some material which is of high
quality/?
There may be more points in their social contract or otherwhere that are
violated by the decision to make systemd the default init system and by
simply accepting that virtually the whole distribution depends on it.
Feel free to point them out --- so far, my reasoning seems to have been
ignored, and I might actually have to make a bug report (against Debian
itself) to get a response to these concerns.
I'd be happy to see some support. I cannot speak for "the users" or for
"the free software community". You users, and the community members,
whoever they are, need to speak as well.
[1]: https://www.debian.org/social_contract
--
Knowledge is volatile and fluid. Software is power. |
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chaosesqueteam
n00b
Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:28 am Post subject: |
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https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/09/msg00729.html
From: Andre N Batista <andrenbatista@gmail.com>
On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 07:52:28PM +0200, Slavko wrote:
> Ahoj,
>
> Dňa Thu, 11 Sep 2014 20:15:59 +0200 lee <lee@yun.yagibdah.de> napísal:
>
> > Supporting systemd violates Debians' social contract.
>
> Can you be more verbose about this, please? Why? How? By what?
>
Item 4 says: "We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free
software community. We will place their interests first in our
priorities. We will support the needs of our users for operation in many
different kinds of computing environments."
The way I see it, there is a large amount of doubt on who's insterested
in systemd and there is no doubt that many users are being forced into
using it and, according to your recent post on the subject, those users
have currently no way of purging systemd from their systems without
losing the ability of running an imense chainload of userland software.
So are we trying to support the need of our users for operation in many
different kinds of computing environments or are we pushing some distro
that actualy did that into becoming a GiB monolith?
Are kFreeBSD and Hurd becoming farther and farther to reach? |
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ftz
n00b
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:28 am Post subject: |
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I used Debian for 13 years.
Never needed bleeding edge versions nor optimized code and was always happy with the "de(bian)fault". All I want is stability. And since I have seen pulse I would never even consider using anything from that source. Still can't believe this is happening.
However, I have been very pleased with gentoo in the last few weeks. I'll wait another year or two before reaching any conclusion but at least i found a light in the darkness that was brought upon me. |
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krinn
Watchman
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 7470
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| NeddySeagoon wrote: | krinn,
You have a wonderful way with the English language.  |
NeddySeagoon, I love you!!!  |
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Ant P.
Watchman
Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 6920
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm leaning towards this belonging in OTW too. But I'm not fully decided, that's kinda mean because they've already got enough nuts like this to deal with. |
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tld
Veteran
Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Posts: 1816
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| GrueXYZ wrote: | You guys forgot:
Myth: data corruption is very, very bad.
Fact: No, it's not. Just rotate the data out and fresh, uncorrupt data will flow in!.
Edit: Does anyone else cringe when they see that "RESOLVED NOTABUG" on a data corruption bug report? Yeah, I know "it's just a log", but that doesn't make it RESOLVED or NOTABUG. It's a bug. It may be a low priority one, but it's a bug until you fix the corruption. And people ask me why do I have an emotional reaction when crap like this is being shoved down my throat... |
Yea, that one really is stunning. This is actually a better link to use so as to not confuse it with libreoffice  .
Yea, that's beyond cringe worthy, but then again, so is the very fact that anyone with any sense has somehow not realized the insanity of binary format logs since before the dawn of the Windows event log. How does anyone miss this simple design concept: Logs are intended for when things don't work correctly and, as such, their availability should not be dependent on anything more than a readable file system. FFS...is that so hard to understand? Like so much of systemd, the bug is actually what it is they're trying to do in the first place. Even if the log database somehow did have some mechanism to prevent corruption, like ACID compliant transactions or whatever, at best that would probably mean a non-corrupt database that could still be missing log text that you would get with text log files. I don't need fancy logs in a database that allows me to do some sort of neat "queries"...I just need them to be there.
...but I guess those sorts of "simple is better" concepts are just for us old "get off my lawn" types right? How anyone isn't all but brought to tears by that single insane decision alone, for me, remains the single most astonishing mystery in this whole debate. Those who feel like I do on all of this may get called a "haters" in some attempt to frame this as some sort of prejudice, or something. The reality is that we're just plain angry, with good reason, because stuff like this proves that Redhat has put totally clueless people behind the wheel. |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54234
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Ant P.
I was wondering about a merge with "Why is Gentoo not switching to systemd?" rather than a move to OTW.
This thread has a link to "Why is Gentoo not switching to systemd?" which would become self referential ... a bit like the arguments for systemd, as krinn so elequently described above.
Meanwhile, I'll see how things develop.
_________________
Regards,
NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail. |
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szatox
Advocate
Joined: 27 Aug 2013
Posts: 3135
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| ftz wrote: | I used Debian for 13 years.
(...)
However, I have been very pleased with gentoo in the last few weeks. I'll wait another year or two before reaching any conclusion but at least i found a light in the darkness that was brought upon me. |
| Quote: |
I only recently received word that some of your kind might be coming our way. I'd be glad to call you an ally, if you're willing to join our cause. |
I found it match our context pretty well. Bonus points if you recognize the quote |
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Dr.Willy
Guru
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 547
Location: NRW, Germany
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| krinn wrote: | | Anyone not respecting our propaganda and rant rules may endup in OTW. And trust me, nobody wish endup in OTW, we have "things" living there you cannot even imagine. |
err I mean *hssss* |
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steveL
Watchman
Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 5153
Location: The Peanut Gallery
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Classic, krinn, thank you :-) |
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keet
Guru
Joined: 09 Sep 2008
Posts: 568
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Thank you, Krinn, for the hilarious post. I'm so glad that people can finally multiseat their headless Debian servers. Wait, how would that even work? |
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tld
Veteran
Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Posts: 1816
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| Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Didn't get around to reading your post until today krinn....classic for sure |
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HungGarTiger
Apprentice
Joined: 04 Feb 2014
Posts: 180
Location: /nz/auckland
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:47 am Post subject: |
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This is also a good read..
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/09/msg00846.html
It seems from the mailing lists and forums, that people there are almost as unhappy as they are in Arch (though all discussion there is immidiately shutdown) and here.
Possible non-systemd fork for Jessie is being discussed, is it possible? |
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theBlackDragon
l33t
Joined: 23 Nov 2002
Posts: 768
Location: Belgium
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depontius
Advocate
Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 3509
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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Question...
Is he talking about changes to udev, or to the kernel?
If he's talking changes to udev, Gentoo has the eudev fork. So far I've been sticking with udev because the Gentoo developer has made very strong statements about keeping it working in the classic way. If upstream takes it beyond his ability to maintain, I'm off to eudev.
If he's talking changes to the kernel, which I think he is, because he talked of changing device messages from netlink to kdbus, I think he'll discover that Linus is systemd-tolerant, not a systemd fanbois. Changing udev that way is essentially breaking userspace, and Linus has had the long stance that it takes years to make a userspace-breaking change. It needs to be deprecated, made optional, warnings added , and piles of stuff. Even with all of that somewhere in there are procedures to have at least a year waiting period before actually removing a behavior. And oh by the way, that's for a feature that is believed to be stale and unused.
L.P. is smoking something if he thinks he's going to push kernel space around the way he's been pushing systemd around. Maybe because he's already done the Borg thing to the userspace side of udev he can get away with it there, but the kernel space side is a completely different matter.
We will however need to make it loudly known that eudev is a user of the udev netlink interface. If nobody else, I suspect Peter Zjilstra will make that known.
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tld
Veteran
Joined: 09 Dec 2003
Posts: 1816
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| chaosesqueteam wrote: |
Many of the last few years package maintainers in debian and other Linux distros
are lesbians , feminists, and supporters of such. |
| chaosesqueteam wrote: | Anyway, I would put no faith in linus trovalds. His decision making skills are clearly impaired. Just look at his wife. He didn't even marry a pretty woman. He accepted the ball and chain in return for... For what?
Good conversation? |
For holy f**** sake...and the above doesn't even include stuff that actually required deletion by the mods. I think I speak for many here when I say we don't even want you on our side of this issue or anything else for that matter. |
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Anon-E-moose
Watchman
Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 6098
Location: Dallas area
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| chaosesqueteam wrote: | | Linus more or less endorsed systemd in the debian conference video. I think it was posted here before. |
He did no such thing and obviously either you didn't watch it or you have a severe comprehension problem.
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Naib
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Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 6051
Location: Removed by Neddy
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| tld wrote: | | chaosesqueteam wrote: |
Many of the last few years package maintainers in debian and other Linux distros
are lesbians , feminists, and supporters of such. |
| chaosesqueteam wrote: | Anyway, I would put no faith in linus trovalds. His decision making skills are clearly impaired. Just look at his wife. He didn't even marry a pretty woman. He accepted the ball and chain in return for... For what?
Good conversation? |
For holy f**** sake...and the above doesn't even include stuff that actually required deletion by the mods. I think I speak for many here when I say we don't even want you on our side of this issue or anything else for that matter. |
And people wonder why some of us want to keep well away from the Anti-sysD camp... I would rather be labelled Pro-Sysd (which incidentally isn't the case) then be associated with such vitriolic personalities.
taking a dig at someone wife... dismissing contributions because people are lesbians...
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